A tale of two pre-prints (Basal Eurasians, or No Basal Eurasians?)

Jovialis

Jovialis

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Basal Eurasians, or No Basal Eurasians?


Demogenomic modeling of the timing and the processes of early European farmers differentiation

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.23.394502v2

Originally discussed here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/40623-The-mixed-genetic-origin-of-europe-first-farmers


Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus reveals core of West Eurasian ancestry

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full.pdf

Originally discussed here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37094-Paleolithic-DNA-from-the-Caucasus
 
can Anatolian HG or early Anatolian farmers be modelled as a mixture of Dzudzuana (+some drift) and WHG ?

Following a period of range expansion after the LGM (Fig. 4D), representatives of the Central15 metapopulation, likely descendants of the Epigravettian refugial population, mixed ~14.2 kya withthe population ancestral to both Caucasus HGs and Anatolian/Aegean early farmers. Given theformer geographical distribution of the glacial refugia, this admixture likely happened during theBölling interstadial period in a region encompassing Southeastern Anatolia and the NorthernLevant or even in neighboring regions such as Central and Eastern Anatolia or the Turkish South20 coast (Fig. 4E).

I'll read this paper again when I'll have the time
 
bicicleur 2 said:
can Anatolian HG or early Anatolian farmers be modelled as a mixture of Dzudzuana (+some drift) and WHG ?
Click to expand...

I wish they would release the Dzudzuana samples so we can investigate.

The closest thing is that extremely low-quality paleo Caucasus-sample they found in the dirt, along with a wolf. Which is really not that informative.
 
A pre-print that informs and is verified by peer-reviewed papers. Go figure.
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Pre-LGM_Caucasian:SAT29[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.24827995[/TD]
[TD]Caucasus_lowlands_LN:POT002:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.12957205[/TD]
[TD]Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6267:Wang_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.28835703[/TD]
[TD]İkiztepe_LC:IKI019:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.57628278[/TD]
[TD]Late_Maykop:SIJ002:Wang_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.20533240[/TD]
[TD]Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.31521424[/TD]
[TD]Arslantepe_LC:ART039:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.46879293[/TD]
[TD]Late_Maykop:SIJ003:Wang_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.61506508[/TD]
[TD]Armenia_EBA:I1658:Lazaridis_2016[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.66037730[/TD]
[TD]Armenia_MLChL:I1409:Lazaridis_2016[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.73576885[/TD]
[TD]Kura-Araxes:ARM002:Wang_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.81061520[/TD]
[TD]Arslantepe_LC:ART018_SR:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.84733077[/TD]
[TD]Arslantepe_EBA:ART010_PE:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.86376530[/TD]
[TD]Eneolithic_Caucasus:I1722:Wang_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.95774875[/TD]
[TD]Caucasus_lowlands_LN:POT002:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.96810563[/TD]
[TD]C4-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R67:Antonio_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.10059530[/TD]
[TD]Late_Maykop:SA6002:Wang_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.13493225[/TD]
[TD]Alalakh_MLBA:ALA039:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.18057928[/TD]
[TD]Ashkelon_IA1:ASH2-3:Feldman_2019_(Jul.)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.22024255[/TD]
[TD]Kura-Araxes_EBA:I1635:Lazaridis_2016[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.23120798[/TD]
[TD]Arslantepe_LC:ART018_PE:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.23167247[/TD]
[TD]Kura-Araxes:ARM003:Wang_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.24502592[/TD]
[TD]Arslantepe_LC:ART017_SR:Skourtanioti_2020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.31599190[/TD]
[TD]C4-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1551:Antonio_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.41353949[/TD]
[TD]Kura-Araxes:VEK006:Wang_2019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.65348323[/TD]
[TD]Alalakh_MLBA:ALA084:Skourtanioti_2020

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Well, we have physical phenotype continuity in the Near East, by and large, from the earlier period into Natufians. There are so far no samples at all from much of the Near East and North West Africa, especially not from areas of Egypt, Sinai, Southern Levante and Arabia, especially Yemen. Like some papers argued, the Persian Gulf and/or Southern Arabia are prime areas to look at for Basal Eurasians. If they exist, the very admixture of ANA proper into Natufians might go down to sheer trace levels, which was my point all the time. We need actual samples from the candidate regions for Basal Eurasians in pre-Natufian times. Anything else won't really solve this once and for all.
 
Riverman said:
Well, we have physical phenotype continuity in the Near East, by and large, from the earlier period into Natufians. There are so far no samples at all from much of the Near East and North West Africa, especially not from areas of Egypt, Sinai, Southern Levante and Arabia, especially Yemen. Like some papers argued, the Persian Gulf and/or Southern Arabia are prime areas to look at for Basal Eurasians. If they exist, the very admixture of ANA proper into Natufians might go down to sheer trace levels, which was my point all the time. We need actual samples from the candidate regions for Basal Eurasians in pre-Natufian times. Anything else won't really solve this once and for all.
Click to expand...

Taforalt is 55% Dzudzuana, 45% Ancestral North African.

Natufians are 27% Talforalt and 73% Dzudzuana.

Ergo, they are not trace levels. Traces levels are under one percent.

Also, you can't model post-bronze age Middle Easterners with ancient Middle easterners, they must be modeled with Sidon_BA as a baseline. I forgot which study confirmed this, but it that's what it said.
 
D5VxiQL.jpg


There is also some consistence with the model just using Dodecad K12b, while not perfect; it does show about quarter North African/east African admixture into Natufians.
 
Jovialis said:
Taforalt is 55% Dzudzuana, 45% Ancestral North African.

Natufians are 27% Talforalt and 73% Dzudzuana.
Click to expand...

We can't properly model Natufians without having Basal Eurasians and we can't assume they didn't exist without having sampled the areas mentioned.
 
Riverman said:
We can't properly model Natufians without having Basal Eurasians and we can't assume they didn't exist without having sampled the areas mentioned.
Click to expand...

David Reich called the discovery of Basal Eurasians the "holy grail" of ancient DNA, in his book. I guess we just have to wait and see.
 
IMO the Taforalt and Natufians originated in the southern Levant or the Nile Delta where they received Dzudzuana gene flow
Natufians received a 2nd Dzudzuana gene flow in the southern Levant

It looks like Dzudzana was all over SW Asia and :
Natufian = Dzudzuana + Ancestral North African
Anatolian = Dzudzuana + WHG
CHG = Dzudzuana + ANE ; Iran Neo = Dzudzuana + less ANE than CHG
 
bicicleur 2 said:
IMO the Taforalt and Natufians originated in the southern Levant or the Nile Delta where they received Dzudzuana gene flow
Natufians received a 2nd Dzudzuana gene flow in the southern Levant

It looks like Dzudzana was all over SW Asia and :
Natufian = Dzudzuana + Ancestral North African
Anatolian = Dzudzuana + WHG
CHG = Dzudzuana + ANE ; Iran Neo = Dzudzuana + less ANE than CHG
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you.
 
I?m willing to give the Basal Eurasian idea a chance, but it?s really hard not having a archeological culture or a face to reconstruct.
 
Jovialis: Has Lazaridis responded to your post?
 
Jovialis: Good point. One would think that paper should be ready for publication unless they have additional samples that they are analyzing (perhaps?).
 
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