Admixture history and endogamy in the prehistoric Aegean

eupator said:
Link, please.
With the rest of your post, I disagree.
It's a pre-Greek word that survived.
Hittite is Indo-Anatolian, indeed, but one of many?
Southern Arc has demonstrated that PIE absolutism is a thing of the past.
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What PIE absolutism? We have deciphered Hittite language,arguably the most important member of that Anatolian family to a good extend. If Minoan was related to it, there is a good chance we would have deciphered that one too since we have so many Linear A inscriptions. If I would have to bet, I would expect Minoan to be a language originating in Caucasus or Zagros mountains.


As for water, this is getting a bit ridiculous, you are debating against cold hard facts:
https://twitter.com/lexicon_gr/status/1171011493250392065?s=46&t=5Atn3eYq-I2RER4mdPom8A
Φρύνιχος (2nd century AD) which was an atticist (which means a language purist) and a proper grammar Nazi of the era, is requesting from his contemporary Greek speakers to say πρόσφατο or ακραιφνές ύδωρ instead of νηρόν ύδωρ. Νηρὸν ὕδωρ μηδαμῶς͵ ἀλλὰ πρόσφατον͵ ἀκραιφνές. It doesn?t get any clearer than that.
 
Kuivamaa said:
What PIE absolutism? We have deciphered Hittite language,arguably the most important member of that Anatolian family to a good extend. If Minoan was related to it, there is a good chance we would have deciphered that one too since we have so many Linear A inscriptions. If I would have to bet, I would expect Minoan to be a language originating in Caucasus or Zagros mountains.
As for water, this is getting a bit ridiculous, you are debating against cold hard facts:
https://twitter.com/lexicon_gr/status/1171011493250392065?s=46&t=5Atn3eYq-I2RER4mdPom8A
Φρύνιχος (2nd century AD) which was an atticist (which means a language purist) and a proper grammar Nazi of the era, is requesting from his contemporary Greek speakers to say πρόσφατο or ακραιφνές ύδωρ instead of νηρόν ύδωρ. Νηρὸν ὕδωρ μηδαμῶς͵ ἀλλὰ πρόσφατον͵ ἀκραιφνές. It doesn�t get any clearer than that.
Click to expand...


"Cold hard facts" being a random tweet of a random conjunction of the verb and adjective somehow becoming a Byzantine saying, although there is zero referencing in any Byzantine text, while simultaneously becoming the 'academic consensus'.

And still no connection to either Nereas or Neraida, etc.

Haha, you are hilarious.

As for Hittite, Minoan could have been related to Indo-Anatolian, w/o any immediate connection to Hittite, you are seething for a reason unknown to me, and trying to shut down the discussion.
 
eupator said:
"Cold hard facts" being a random tweet of a random conjunction of the verb and adjective somehow becoming a Byzantine saying, although there is zero referencing in any Byzantine text.

Still no connection to either Nereas or Neraida, etc.

Haha, you are hilarious.

As for Hittite, Minoan could have been related to Indo-Anatolian, w/o any immediate connection to Hittite, you are seething for a reason unknown to me, and trying to shut down the discussion
Click to expand...


Alright this is the last time we interact in here. The tweet I posted is from the lexicon of Babiniotis the professor of linguistics and former dean of University of Athens
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Babiniotis

What is more important is that it doesn?t even matter what his dictionary say because we know what precisely went on from the sources. A scholar of 2nd century AD describes a switch that happens in colloquial language that he himself opposes. A switch that specifically explains how the word νερό replaced the word ύδωρ in detail, first they became paired in spoken language and then the second word, got omitted. And we are to ignore all that knowledge because you or someone else had a brain fart, got corrected and can?t accept your error. I wish you good luck with your life.
 
Kuivamaa said:
Alright this is the last time we interact in here. The tweet I posted is from the lexicon of Babiniotis the professor of linguistics and former dean of University of Athens
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Babiniotis
What is more important is that it doesn�t even matter what his dictionary say because we know what precisely went on from the sources. A scholar of 2nd century AD describes a switch that happens in colloquial language that he himself opposes. A switch that specifically explains how the word νερό replaced the word ύδωρ in detail, first they became paired in spoken language and then the second word, got omitted. And we are to ignore all that knowledge because you or someone else had a brain fart, got corrected and can�t accept your error. I wish you good luck with your life.
Click to expand...

You are wasting your time with an ignoramus who projects his own "seething" onto you, strangely enough he seethes every time one is talking about Europe.
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
You are wasting your time with an ignoramus who projects his own "seething" onto you, strangely enough he seethes every time one is talking about Europe.
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Ahem, I don't understand the reason behind the personalised hate.

But I do seem to remember your 'spicy' tweets aimed at Lazaridis about Anatolian admixture in Romans, are you sure you're not projecting, mate?
 
Many Pre-Greek words have Elamite origin, of course there are also some Greek words in Elamite.

Elamite an-ka "if" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-627 Greek an/oukan "if"
Elamite ap-pa "because" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-626 Greek epeí "becuase"
Elamite at-ta "father" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-66 Greek atta "father"
Elamite ta-at "put" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-481 Greek thetós "put"
Elamite duk "conceive" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-207 Greek deíknūmi "make known"
Elamite a-a-ni-ip "relatives, kinsmen" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-86 Greek anepsiós "cousin"
Elamite ha-ap-ti "hear, ear" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-568 Greek afti "ear"
Elamite e-ul "flour" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-237 Greek áleuron "flour"
Elamite hi-iš-ki "arrow" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-715 Greek Greek īós "arrow"
Elamite hi-šá "praise" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-609 Greek aînos "praise"
Elamite ul-hi "yard, court" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-292 Greek aulḗ "yard, court"
Elamite hu-ur-pi "fruit" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-240 Greek karpos "fruit"
Elamite har-ki-an-na "iron, bronze" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-394 Greek khalkós "bronze"
Elamite qa-am-ban "bow" https://ids.clld.org/valuesets/20-240-216 Greek kámptō "bend, curve" (Persian kaman means "bow")
Elamite kar-ik "helmet" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-717 Greek kórus "helmet"
Elamite qa-iš-ba-h "parrot, blackbird" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-150 Greek kóssuphos "blackbird"
Elamite ku-ul-la-hu "call" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-654 Greek kaléō "call"
Elamite ku-maš "he-goat" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-124 Greek kemás "deer"
Elamite kur-ru-sa "barley" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-338 Greek krīthḗ "barley"
Elamite ma-ul-li "child" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-54 Greek meîrax "boy, girl"
Elamite mar-du "star" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-25 Greek maῖra "the dog star, sparkler"
Elamite mi-ir-ri-h "ointment" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-282 Greek múrō "ointment"
Elamite pi-ti "pitcher, jug" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-230 Greek pithos "jar"
Elamite pu-hi-e "child" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-52 Greek paîs "child"
Elamite tar-ma "finish" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-542 Greek térma "finish"
Elamite ti-la "young animal, calf" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-108 Greek étalon "young animal"
Elamite tu-ru-h "speak, talk" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-641 Greek toréō "proclaim"
Elamite tuk "pair" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-525 Greek díkha "in two"
Elamite ti-ut "bird" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-147 Greek tutṓ "kind of bird"
Elamite ul-ki-na "defending weapon" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-711 Greek alkḗ "defense"
 
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So few discussions, in such an important paper...

Such a huge genetic mixing and different ancestral sources, and still no one cares. While in the albanian threads, there are hundreds of postings everytime
 
@Jovialis have you or @Salento downloaded the files from this paper and incorporated it in the Expedia dataset?
 
I still remain amazed that hardly anybody has read this, despite the paper effectively redefining our understanding of what the Myceneans looked liked. These individuals are not the same as those Lazaridis dug up in 2017. Lots of steppe and caucasian heavy individuals with over 400 samples in this study, alone. It's apparent to me that the Mycenaeans continued to absorb Steppe and western Anatolian ancestry as time went on as the LBA individuals do show meaningful and large increases in both of these types of ancestry compared to the EBA individuals.

I will repost the G25 coordinates for any who are interested.
 

Attachments

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I decided to combine 47 LBA samples of this study from all the available G25 coordinates we have to average the LBA Greeks and compare their distance to modern populations. Here was the result. As you can see, LBA greeks of the Peloponesian peninsula and Aegean islands look firmly like modern Southern Italians and still quite similar also to Greek Islanders and Central Italians.

Greek_LBA_Average,0.10830151,0.15680204,-0.0038915319,-0.057363426,0.024606766,-0.024008404,-0.0035550638,-0.0033877234,0.0087640426,0.043135638,0.0039456596,0.0090877447,-0.015524,-0.0015138298,-0.019364681,-0.0084884894,0.0086219787,0.000094340426,0.0077718936,-0.0096642128,-0.0090133404,0.0037727234,-0.0015104681,0.0040687447,-0.0023108511

LBA Greek Average.png


Their distance to the modern Southern Italian and Greek Islander genome has notably decreased compared to the old listed Mycenaean average on Davidski's spreadsheet.

1707306494840.png
 
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Vitruvius: Thanks for the coordinates. My top 25 single distances.

Distance to:PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
0.02744166Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID007
0.03169749Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID002
0.03266768Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN023
0.03299273Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG008
0.03479758Greece_LBA_Koukounaries:KUK001
0.03516436Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID008
0.03520402Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN051
0.03692149Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG003
0.03760220Greece_LBA_Koukounaries:KUK005
0.03838460Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN030
0.03860668Greece_LBA_Krousonas:KRO009
0.04013199Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG006
0.04042329Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG001
0.04100829Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN021
0.04133172Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID001
0.04154560Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Glyka_Nera:GLI003
0.04197252Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Tiryns:TIR002
0.04208140Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN026
0.04277072Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID014
0.04413806Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Mygdalia:MYG002
0.04414774Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN027
0.04530124Greece_LBA_Koukounaries:KUK006
0.04570466Greece_LBA_Krousonas:KRO008
0.04578992Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Aidonia:AID017
0.04604042Greece_LBA_Chania:XAN024
 
Vitruvius said:
I decided to combine 47 LBA samples of this study from all the available G25 coordinates we have to average the LBA Greeks and compare their distance to modern populations. Here was the result. As you can see, LBA greeks of the Peloponesian peninsula and Aegean islands look firmly like modern Southern Italians and still quite similar also to Greek Islanders and Central Italians.

Greek_LBA_Average,0.10830151,0.15680204,-0.0038915319,-0.057363426,0.024606766,-0.024008404,-0.0035550638,-0.0033877234,0.0087640426,0.043135638,0.0039456596,0.0090877447,-0.015524,-0.0015138298,-0.019364681,-0.0084884894,0.0086219787,0.000094340426,0.0077718936,-0.0096642128,-0.0090133404,0.0037727234,-0.0015104681,0.0040687447,-0.0023108511

View attachment 15282

Their distance to the modern Southern Italian and Greek Islander genome has notably decreased compared to the old listed Mycenaean average on Davidski's spreadsheet.

View attachment 15285
Click to expand...
Deep mani is also close
IMG_20240207_202103.jpg
 
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Vitruvius said:
Good catch. I don't think I had Deep Mani in my spreadsheet so that's good to see.
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You can find them in Davidski's file here
eurogenes.blogspot.com

Getting the most out of the Global25

The first thing you need to know about the Global25 is that I update the relevant datasheets regularly, usually every few weeks, but they'r...
eurogenes.blogspot.com eurogenes.blogspot.com
 
Vitruvius said:
I still remain amazed that hardly anybody has read this, despite the paper effectively redefining our understanding of what the Myceneans looked liked. These individuals are not the same as those Lazaridis dug up in 2017. Lots of steppe and caucasian heavy individuals with over 400 samples in this study, alone. It's apparent to me that the Mycenaeans continued to absorb Steppe and western Anatolian ancestry as time went on as the LBA individuals do show meaningful and large increases in both of these types of ancestry compared to the EBA individuals.

I will repost the G25 coordinates for any who are interested.
Click to expand...
Forgot to mention that the new Samples raised the average Steppe admixtures of LBA Greece to 18-20% from lazaridis' ~10%
IMG_20240208_172717.jpg
 
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Vitruvius said:
Yep. My guess is this process will only continue as Greeks expands into Anatolia, Epirus, and Thrace.
Click to expand...
My opinion is that the cline between Greek Mainlanders and islanders is way older phenomenon than medieval times.
 
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Omino said:
My opinion is that the cline between Greek Mainlanders and islanders is way older phenomenon than medieval times.
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I agree strongly with this. There is already plenty of evidence to suggest high steppe individuals in bronze age Greek society. Coupled with the fact that we now know BA Greece had been experiencing two pulls of admixture (one from steppe rich individuals and one from Anatolia) it seems silly to assume Iron age Greece will end up fully identical from north to south. It's the same type of cline we see in Italy.
 
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