adnaxp: Hair, skin, eye color for ancient samples (AADR-based)

[MOESAN]

people say white people
it would be clearer if they used the term caucasian

there are millions of east-asian more whiter than caucasians

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réflectance de la peau (sujet à caution: petits échantillons)​

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HOMMES​

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FEMMES​

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moyenne​

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« Noirs » Afrique divers 4​

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14,00​

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Aborigènes Austral. Darwin​

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19,30​

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« Noirs » Afrique divers 3​

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20,00​

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« Noirs » Afrique divers 2​

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30,00​

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Papous Nlle Guinée​

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35,90​

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« Noirs » Afrique divers 1​

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40,00​

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Inde Sud (Dravidiens?)​

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46,70​

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Jirel​

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49,10​

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56,60​

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Népal​

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50,40​

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Iran​

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51,20​

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60,10​

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55,65​

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Pakistan vrac​

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52,30​

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Arabie Saoudite​

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52,50​

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Jordanie​

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53,00​

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Yemen​

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53,10​

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56,90​

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55,00​

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Sikhs​

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53,20​

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55,50​

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54,35​

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Inde vrac​

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53,30​

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Japon Sud​

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53,50​

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Cambodge​

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54,00​

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Philippines Manille​

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54,10​

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Punjab​

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54,50​

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53,60​

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54,05​

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Maroc​

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54,80​

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Kurds​

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54,90​

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60,00​

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57,45​

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Japon Nord​

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54,90​

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Vietnam​

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55,90​

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Tunisie​

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56,30​

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Algériens vrac​

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58,00​

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58,04​

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58,02​

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Algérie Berbères Aurès​

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58,00​

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Israel​

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58,20​

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Liban​

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58,20​

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Turquie​

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59,10​

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Chine Sud​

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59,10​

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Kurds (Irak + Syrie)​

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61,10​

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Européens (vrac)​

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61,50​

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63,10​

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62,30​

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Britanniques Londres​

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62,30​

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Belgique vrac​

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63,10​

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Belgique 1​

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64,50​

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63,60​

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64,05​

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Espagne Leon​

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64,66​

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Irlande Rossmore​

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64,75​

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Pays de Galles​

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65,00​

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Basques Vizcaye Espagne​

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65,20​

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65,80​

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65,50​

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Basques Guipuzcoa Espagne​

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65,50​

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66,40​

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65,95​

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Basques espagnols divers​

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65,70​

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Nord Grande-Bretagne​

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66,10​

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Allemagne Mainz Mayence​

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66,90​

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Belgique 2​

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67,30​

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65,90​

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66,60​

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Pays-Bas​

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67,40​

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[MOESAN]

people say white people
it would be clearer if they used the term caucasian

there are millions of east-asian more whiter than caucasians

here under a survey of Jablonski, I put only males (more numerous) - small samples -
African Blacks (4) 14,00 - Aborigenes Darwin 19,30 - Afr. Blacks (3) 20,00 - Afr. Blacks 30,00 - South India 46,70 - Nepal 50,40 - Iran 51,20 - Pakistan (diverse) 52,30 - Saudi 52,5 - Jordanians 53,00 - Yemenites 53,10 - Indian Sikhs 53,20 - Indians (diverse) 53,30 - Southern Japon 53,50 - Cambodge 54,00 - Manilla Philippines 54,10 - Indian Punjab (north) 54,50 - Marocco 54,8 - Kurds (diverse) 54,90 - Northlgern Japan 54,90 - Tunisia 56,30 - Algeria (diverse) 58,00 - Berbers Aures Algeria 58,00 - Israel 58,20 - Lebanon 58,20 - Turkey 59,10 - Southern China (59,10 - Kurds (Syrian + Iraq) 61,10 - Europeans (diverse) 61,50 - UK London 62,30 - Belgians (diverse) 63,10 - Belgians (1) 64,50 - Spain Leon 64,66 - Eire Rossmore 64,75 - Wales 65,00 - Sp. Basques Vizcaya 65,20 -
Sp.Basques Guipuzcoa 65,50 - Sp.Basques (diverse) 65,70 - Great Brittain North 66,10 - Germany Mainz 66,90 - Belgians (2) 67,30 - The Netherlands 67,40 -
&: as a whole, females ar darker skinned!

 

[MOESAN]

here under a survey of Jablonski, I put only males (more numerous) - small samples -
African Blacks (4) 14,00 - Aborigenes Darwin 19,30 - Afr. Blacks (3) 20,00 - Afr. Blacks 30,00 - South India 46,70 - Nepal 50,40 - Iran 51,20 - Pakistan (diverse) 52,30 - Saudi 52,5 - Jordanians 53,00 - Yemenites 53,10 - Indian Sikhs 53,20 - Indians (diverse) 53,30 - Southern Japon 53,50 - Cambodge 54,00 - Manilla Philippines 54,10 - Indian Punjab (north) 54,50 - Marocco 54,8 - Kurds (diverse) 54,90 - Northlgern Japan 54,90 - Tunisia 56,30 - Algeria (diverse) 58,00 - Berbers Aures Algeria 58,00 - Israel 58,20 - Lebanon 58,20 - Turkey 59,10 - Southern China (59,10 - Kurds (Syrian + Iraq) 61,10 - Europeans (diverse) 61,50 - UK London 62,30 - Belgians (diverse) 63,10 - Belgians (1) 64,50 - Spain Leon 64,66 - Eire Rossmore 64,75 - Wales 65,00 - Sp. Basques Vizcaya 65,20 -
Sp.Basques Guipuzcoa 65,50 - Sp.Basques (diverse) 65,70 - Great Brittain North 66,10 - Germany Mainz 66,90 - Belgians (2) 67,30 - The Netherlands 67,40 -
&: as a whole, females ar darker skinned!

other survey with a different system:
Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Slovenia: 1,57
Netherlands: 1,49
Germany: 1,48
Czechia: 1,42
Albania, Italy, Bulgaria, Ukraine: 1,27
Spain: 1,19
Cyprus, Greece, Portugal: 1,12
&:
I don't know which one, but one uses reflectance, the other transparency - one is subject to effetcs of veins blood

 

[MOESAN]

I avow I was surprised by the Jablonski survey placing the Leon Spagnards and even more the Spain Basques among the lighest skinned people of Europe, lighter than some northwestern Europeans, even British or Irish - it's true that the samples are reputed for being little - That said, Spagnards as a whole are a bit darkest skinned, and in Spain there are differences in the regions averages; Basques in some ancient studies (nude eye made) had already the reputation of being not so dark skinned as a whole. Spite an allover rather homogenous autosomDNA average, Spagnards show some differences in pigmentary phoenotypes averages by regions, more than do Portugueses (except Minho in NW I think). I speak of kind of arithmetical averages; of course, in every region, even the more "typical", individuals show more or less differences, not all of them corresponding to the stereotype.

 

[HereToLearn]

AutosomDNA is contradicted by phenotype on several instances. I could make many examples even on large scale at populations level. Or maybe there's a degree of detail that we are still missing in our analyses, and that would allow to reconcile autosomal DNA and phenotype in a more consistent and straightforward manner?

 

[Anfänger]

Don‘t take this tool to literal. It was made by our old friend "Genetiker".

 

[MOESAN]

Don‘t take this tool to literal. It was made by our old friend "Genetiker".

There is not a true discrepancy between autosDNA and phoenotypes (here we speak of pigmentation, not of skulls or bodies forms) - It's just that pigmentation reacts to environment and diverse selections without needing a lot of genes so it can vary more quickly than the allover autosDNA making.
and if the principal and more effective SNP's are a few number, others can operate by accumulation producing sometimes close enough results with a different genetic support. We have surely somethings to learn yet.

 

[HereToLearn]

(here we speak of pigmentation, not of skulls or bodies forms)

Do you mean classification of human races based on cranial measures? I see that a lot on certain "dubious" forums, but is that considered a sound scientifical way to infer genetic ancestry? And even if those variations existed shouldn't they be readily attributed to the environment, just like pigmentation? For example, a certain shape of the ears or nose is more suitable for a certain climate, just like lighter / darker skin is supposed to be adapted to certain climates.

 

[Anfänger]

There is not a true discrepancy between autosDNA and phoenotypes (here we speak of pigmentation, not of skulls or bodies forms) - It's just that pigmentation reacts to environment and diverse selections without needing a lot of genes so it can vary more quickly than the allover autosDNA making.
and if the principal and more effective SNP's are a few number, others can operate by accumulation producing sometimes close enough results with a different genetic support. We have surely somethings to learn yet.

Absolutely, that’s also the same position I have on pigmentation and environment. I made several posts on this subject in the past, you may have read them. Pigmentation can change very fast without much difference/change in atDNA.

I just wanted to clarify that this tool isn’t made by the Harvard group but by amateur geneticist Genetiker.

 

[MOESAN]

just keeping going with pigmentation before maybe answer to other questions, I wonder why in the incomplete survey of Jablonski concerning wives he found them darker than males as a whole: in some countries it could be linked to ever lasting exogamy. But in others?
I read an old study (French I believe) with three different screams on reflectance through the ages for boys and girls (forehead and inside arms) : it found always the girls a bit fairer than the boys, what is the common opinion - interestingly t shows the skin colour evolves by age, becoming darker between about 6/8 yrs to 12/14 yrs (proxi) before becoming fairer again between the 12's and the 18's - a detail: arms and frontals follow generally the same evolution except among boys who see their frontal staying darker at 18's, so with a bigger differences between these two body parts than have girls. I think I read something like that too concernng Duthc people, adult males having neatly darker foreheads than females. Blood irrigation? more exposure to sun?

 

[MOESAN]

I answer me! With the paper under my eyes in place of my "souvenirs", it's better!
the survey was made in fact in Spain about more than 800 children, a bit more females than males -
shortly said: approximatively: A: 6 to 10 years - B: 10 to 14 - C: 14 to 18
- fairer the girls than the boys, for frontals as for inside hidden part of arms -
- arms lighter than frontals in every case -
- the differences by sex is littler for frontal than for arms -
- globally 6 years to 10 years the pigmentation darkens - it changes very little between 10's and 14's - the pigmentation lightens between 14's and 18's -
- when both sexes are averaged frontal and arms color darken slowly without great break, just some stabilization in the middle period, but arms lighten very strongly after 14 years -
- for girls, frontal darkens very little in period A, and lightens little in period C- for boys, frontal darlens almost all the time, beginning a bit lighter than for girls before becoming very darker than for them -
- fo girls and boys, arms begin the same, darkens almost the same way, and in C they lighten strongly, with girls begining htelightening a bit before, and going more evidently lighter -
&: so, less variations for the frontal, a more exposed part, with kind of stabilization - the changes for the arms are more evident, opposing more A to B, with this unexpected lightening between 14-15 and 18's - I think the measurings for arms are more informative -
this post is more serious than the preceding, sorry.

 

[MOESAN]

Do you mean classification of human races based on cranial measures? I see that a lot on certain "dubious" forums, but is that considered a sound scientifical way to infer genetic ancestry? And even if those variations existed shouldn't they be readily attributed to the environment, just like pigmentation? For example, a certain shape of the ears or nose is more suitable for a certain climate, just like lighter / darker skin is supposed to be adapted to certain climates.

This climatic adaptation for body features is valid as a general level, but other factors come to change partly the game - not always evident - ATW if we look at Paleo and Meso-lithic known human skeletons of pops sometimes living in close areas we see some groups with very distinct features, body, skull and face, without speaking of the fleshy parts - so some mutations + isolation giving way to rapid selection on small groups could have acted more quickly than climatic pressure, without eliminate some big schemes of this last one?
The purely natural selection goes not so fast as the accidental/unconsicent + more or less conscient motors of social selection which has an imput on the pure natural selection, I think.

 

[MOESAN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1818337503050653893

I had begun a thread on this and didn't go farther than hair colours - It was based on GENETIKER's "work" - I'll try to go further on - some lacks: only two eyes colour!!! when you have dark and light eyes, you have always between hues - same for the skin: Europeans, even if less light than today, had no SO MUCH dark or black skins since Neolithic!!! Surely some mutations for more light skin haven't been discovered, which could play a role even for Mesolithic.

 

[MOESAN]

For skin colours I made also % states based on the data found in the first post of this thread.
the labelling from left to right is: "dark", "dark"(less), "intermediary", "light", "very light" - based on European pop's "intermediary" is just a less white skin, kind of 'mediter' one. But comparing ancient pop's and modern ones, it seems the "dark" and less "dark" cannot be taken as face value for black" and "very brown": almost all the SAA Africans and African-Americans are in the darkest label, spite they have not all of them the same hues of skin. And I have hard work to believe ancient Europeans even at Neolithic had "black" skins or almost "black" skins, it would have been specified there and then by the Ancients. It send us to the skin colour of our Mesolithic people by the way. My present thought is that the European and Europoid pop's without the principal enlighting SNP's taken in account here were rather middle brown skinned. Among SAA pop's of the darker colours skin have been found darkening SNP's, which seemingly aren't taken in account in this "data". So for the two darker labels here, we may not say what colour they represent, even if among Europeans we could think they are for light brown and middle brown, approximatively. But in these tables, even people in the lightest hues could have indeed a slightly darker colour if they have a darkening mutation.
All that can impact the worth of my future observations about these data.

 

[MOESAN]

For skin colours I made also % states based on the data found in the first post of this thread.
the labelling from left to right is: "dark", "dark"(less), "intermediary", "light", "very light" - based on European pop's "intermediary" is just a less white skin, kind of 'mediter' one. But comparing ancient pop's and modern ones, it seems the "dark" and less "dark" cannot be taken as face value for black" and "very brown": almost all the SAA Africans and African-Americans are in the darkest label, spite they have not all of them the same hues of skin. And I have hard work to believe ancient Europeans even at Neolithic had "black" skins or almost "black" skins, it would have been specified there and then by the Ancients. It send us to the skin colour of our Mesolithic people by the way. My present thought is that the European and Europoid pop's without the principal enlighting SNP's taken in account here were rather middle brown skinned. Among SAA pop's of the darker colours skin have been found darkening SNP's, which seemingly aren't taken in account in this "data". So for the two darker labels here, we may not say what colour they represent, even if among Europeans we could think they are for light brown and middle brown, approximatively. But in these tables, even people in the lightest hues could have indeed a slightly darker colour if they have a darkening mutation.
All that can impact the worth of my future observations about these data.

 

[MOESAN]

For skin colours I made also % states based on the data found in the first post of this thread.
the labelling from left to right is: "dark", "dark"(less), "intermediary", "light", "very light" - based on European pop's "intermediary" is just a less white skin, kind of 'mediter' one. But comparing ancient pop's and modern ones, it seems the "dark" and less "dark" cannot be taken as face value for black" and "very brown": almost all the SAA Africans and African-Americans are in the darkest label, spite they have not all of them the same hues of skin. And I have hard work to believe ancient Europeans even at Neolithic had "black" skins or almost "black" skins, it would have been specified there and then by the Ancients. It send us to the skin colour of our Mesolithic people by the way. My present thought is that the European and Europoid pop's without the principal enlighting SNP's taken in account here were rather middle brown skinned. Among SAA pop's of the darker colours skin have been found darkening SNP's, which seemingly aren't taken in account in this "data". So for the two darker labels here, we may not say what colour they represent, even if among Europeans we could think they are for light brown and middle brown, approximatively. But in these tables, even people in the lightest hues could have indeed a slightly darker colour if they have a darkening mutation.
All that can impact the worth of

I also caught that and thought it was pretty strange. I imagine Greek Anatolia to look a good bit like Southern Italians/Greek islanders who have a very low (but not absent) frequency of blondness.

my future observations about these data.

I also caught that and thought it was pretty strange. I imagine Greek Anatolia to look a good bit like Southern Italians/Greek islanders who have a very low (but not absent) frequency of blondness.

5/17 "blondes" in the Greek Anatolian sample looks even more curious.

a 17 sample is not big enough: for state with 3 or more categories a 200 sample by region would be more credible. So states with 50/100 people are credible only if more than three of four ones for close regions say roughly the same. It 's often sufficient but a statistician would tell you it doesn't exclude a statistical "accident".

 

[Jovialis]

Phenotypes of aDNA samples from 3000 BC-450 BC

Hair color:

Eye color:

Skin color:

 

[MOESAN]

thanks. I have some doubts about the total reliability of these maps at the phoenotype level.
Who produced these maps? I doubt there has been so much red hairs as phoenotypes (what mutated SNP's have been taken in account? some have less penetrance than others)
Concerning the skin, they seem rather light as a whole (that doesn't surprise me, because labellings like "black skin or "dark skin" concerning Europeans of those times appear very unreliable to me).
Some big schemes ATW.
I was trying to put my states based on GENETIKER "works" but I failed to formate my pasted doc. It's unreadible helas!

 

[Vallicanus]

Garbage.

So are your posts.

 

[MOESAN]

Bible

allways the same throll!!! future banned