I believe these are their genuine observations, though very general and lacking details. From these few verses we have no idea how many Slavs and Avars came to Greece, how many Greeks died, was it only an invasion army or they came with families to settle? What baffles me is that from these general and sparse quotes you concluded that Greeks were totally replaced by Slavs, Avars and Albanians, and that ancient Greeks are gone forever. It is not true. From genetic studies we gather that modern Greeks are vastly descendents of ancient populations of East Mediterranean, the neolithic farmers. In future we will get more genetic resolution of ancient Greeks and we should be in position to say if population of a single city like Athens have genetic continuity with ancient Athenians.
Indeed it was.
I say lets keep the present borders intact. There is always possibility for referendum in the future in case of disagreement. The situation you described we can extrapolate for the whole Europe. Every piece of land belonged in past to someone else. Let's leave it the way it is, or we could start another war.
, It is true on some level. As I said before there is a genetic continuity of recent populations with ancient people of the region. If Illirians lived in area of Serbia, when Slavs came they mixed havily with locals, to the degree that Serbs are geneticaly closer to Albanians and Greeks than to Poles or Russians, the Northern Slavs. Having said that I'm not familiar with genetic analyses of ancient Illyrian individual, if actually one could be identified as one.
The are only culturally slavs, and mostly from the language side. The rest of culture like food, music, costumes are continuation of ancient Macedonian culture, and similar to Greek Macedonians. Also genetically they are mostly descendents of Macedonians and only in minority from Slavs.
I think, you need to let these facts sink in. The most of population of Balkans are genetic continuation of ancient neolithic farmers, with only some elements of Indo European invaders, or later Slavs. Genetic base is very old local, meaning that all the invaders who came had little genetic impact on the region. They came in smaller groups, they conquered and later they mixed completely with locals. Population of Balkans were not replaced neither by Helens, or Slavs, or Turks. Instead one can see great cultural changes every thousand of years, but population stays the same in general. Greek Macedonians and Slavic Macedonians are genetically identical, almost. They both are descendants of Ancient Macedonians, they both have Slavic genetic influence. The only difference is that Greek Macedonians managed to keep their Greek language and Slavic Macedonians switched to Slavic.
The only problem I noticed is that you draw broad conclusions with very scant information.
Overrun doesn't mean replaced, does it? They were few of them, they didn't killed most of Greeks and they mixed with locals or left. Please, don't confuse conquer with population replacement anymore.
I find your posting on unfounded scientific arguments. You choose to answer selectively. Also you misuse my words and you take them out of context.
I'm new to this forum, but apparently I see that you don`t like references when you discuss and made conclusion.
You say:
In future we will get more genetic resolution of ancient Greeks and we should be in position to say if population of a single city like Athens have genetic continuity with ancient Athenians.
While you wait for the analysis to be done in future, i'm continue with some facts that are known globally.
First.
Before talking to the arrival of the Barbarians and the Slavs we should also talk about this event:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian.
I don`t like wikipedia because the greek net-warriors use that for their nationalist agenda, but I am not losing my time, you can find a lot of references.
What happened then, the greeks had immunity from plague?
Second.
The so-called Chronicle of Monembasia, states that:
in the year 587—8 the Turkic Avars (with whom the Slavs were
usually allied)
"…..captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica
and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war;
and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they
dwelt there. Those who were able to escape their murderous hands were
scattered here and there.
Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the
district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe,
the Corinthians to the island of Aegina.... Only the eastern part of
the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Cape Maleas, was untouched by the
Slavonians because of the rough and inaccessible nature of the
country... "
[Cyril Mango, BYZANTIUM: THE EMPIRE OF NEW ROME]
I could go on to quote a large group of authors. Is`t necessary? Here no man prefers references, here are willing to speak what they learned in elementary school.
Third.
[h=3]
1774
Johann Thunmann:
On the History and Language
of the Albanians and Vlachs[/h]
“I believe one can conclude from this not only that the Albanians were numerous in Thessaly at the time, but that they were much sought after for the army because of their bravery.
They were now very powerful in the Despotate. Cantacuzene had even appointed a number of Albanians as governors after taking that region over from Nicephorus. Guini de Spata received the region of Janina, and Musacchi Thopia the region of Arta. Spata soon declared his independence and took over the region governed by Thopia. The rule of John Angelus and later of the Serbs over the Despotate did not impede the progress of the Albanians. Since Simon, or Siniscian [Sinisha], the brother of King Stephen of Serbia, to whom the Despotate had been given after the death of his brother in 1356, was involved in a major war of succession with Urosh, Stephen’s son, the former Despot Nicephorus, son of John II, used the opportunity to retake the territories of his father. He first conquered Thessaly with no difficulty. The Albanians resisted more in the Despotate and would not accept him as their ruler. In order to overcome them more easily, he decided to marry a Serbian princess and repudiate his earlier wife, Cantacuzene’s daughter, whom he had put under arrest in Arta. But with the help of the Albanians and Acarnanians, she managed to flee to the Morea to her brother, the Despot Manuel. From this time on, the Albanians abandoned Nicephorus entirely and threatened to wage open war on him if he did not take back his repudiated wife. Nicephorus actually wanted to reach an agreement with his wife, but because he did not want to appear to have been pressured by the Albanians, he attacked the rebels, with the support of a group of Turks. He attacked his foes at a place called Achelous, but he fell there himself, and with him, his whole army was defeated. This took place in 1357.”
Source: [from: Johann Thunmann,
Über die Geschichte und Sprache der Albaner und der Wlachen (Leipzig 1774). Translated from the German by Robert Elsie.]
Read this:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vsoqd1&s=7#.U_2QiaP9mK8
Fourth.
After arrived the Othomans.
Even here i can stay for a long time but I will show an interesting element. Look what greek pupils learn in the school:
http://www.agiasofia.com/1821/fort1821/revolut.html
The Greek Empire of Byzantium ended on Tuesday May 29, 1453 when its capital, Constantinople, fell to the Turks. This day is the black day in Greek history. By the end of the 15th century, Greece was under Turkish rule. Over the next 400 years, the Greeks were slaves to the Turks, deprived of their human rights, considered as second class citizens (rayas means beast in turkish language), worked and lived only for their rulers. Harems of Pashas were full of christian .
The Turks were famous for a tactical combat, ETHNIC RAPE, the last who used this tactic were Serbs during the war in ex-Yugoslavia.
Turks mingle up the food in the pot of Greeks? Asia Minore was for 1.500 center of two great empires. An empire is not monoethnic, but multiethnic.
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/ProtocolofPoros.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/ProtocolofPoros21.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/ProtocolofPoros25.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius Mak Stuff/veremes.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius Mak Stuff/veremes245.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius Mak Stuff/veremes246.png
You say:
I say lets keep the present borders intact. There is always possibility for referendum in the future in case of disagreement. The situation you described we can extrapolate for the whole Europe. Every piece of land belonged in past to someone else. Let's leave it the way it is, or we could start another war.
This sounds like pure nationalism and i'm not here for this, but if you want I can discuss for “
Every piece of land”.
While you wait analyzes responses, i want to make you an question:
What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute a nation?
Thank you.