All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[Ygorcs]

There is also a point that i think a lot of people minimize but i do believe its a reality fact. Geneticians sometimes have samples with enough genetic material to give us y-dna and mtdna haplogroups, but they dont do it, why? I dont think the reason is because " they try to hide us the truth ". I think, geneticians are scientists and you cannot have a " big sample " but not an history that goes with. It's very possible that they already have some M269 and L51, but they dont want to out it, because it needs to enter into a paper, that will teach us a story. One exemple of this is Sidelkino, our oldest EHG sample wich turns out to be a male wich Carlos Quiles consider it have enough genetic material to give us the y-dna haplogroup but they didn't. We cannot really blame them.

That makes sense. I doubt they'd release a certain finding about Y-DNA, Mt-DNA or autosomal admixture without any proper context and a "story" that can not just be convincing, but also preferably create some buzz (on academic and also mediatic levels). It's then much better to present some data combined with other data that they hope they will be able to get to present a wholesome narrative with a clearer conclusion, not just some sparse data.

 

[halfalp]

That makes sense. I doubt they'd release a certain finding about Y-DNA, Mt-DNA or autosomal admixture without any proper context and a "story" that can not just be convincing, but also preferably create some buzz (on academic and also mediatic levels). It's then much better to present some data combined with other data that they hope they will be able to get to present a wholesome narrative with a clearer conclusion, not just some sparse data.

Yep. I cannot stop thinking to that hypothetic big paper i drsm about, Anatolia with like 100 samples of 10'000 years of difference. The dream.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I honestly did not understand Maciamo's point in this post you used as a reference. Let's see: how could a pre-Indo-European Anatolian R1b-M269 lineage migrate and settle along many generations as far as Iberia, however maintain a high proportion of Northern European ancestry if he had really been a mix of the local Iberians with these Anatolian R1b cattle herders? Would this Northern European admixture have come on its own - without the mixed steppe pastoralists - to Iberia (unlikely, no significant evidence of EHG or SHG-like in Western Europe, let alone Iberia before the Chalcolithic AFAIK)? Would it be present in Anatolia since the earlier Neolithic, even before the formation of the earliest PIE community (until now not even as late as the Bronze Age did any Anatolian sample show a hint of EHG)? Considering that there should've been dozens of generations between the R1b-M269 ancestor and this ATP3, I find it much more likely that he had a genetic history in his family in which there had been mixing between Caucasian-influenced Anatolian migrants (maybe part of the waves that also defined Pre-Hellenic Greece and Minoan Crete), Eastern European migrants from the steppe (or near the steppe), and the local EEF elements. It's just weird, unless we haven't found the "right" samples in Neolithic Anatolia, that the IBERIAN (not Ukrainian or Romanian) descendant of a supposed "R1b-M269 pastoralist population" would be so high in a Northern European admixture - unless this R1b-M269 population did not come directly from Anatolia, but from somewhere in Eastern Europe or so.

For instance, the Mycenean Greeks had more "Caucasian" than "Northern European" admixture, but that does not mean that their earlier ancestors also had these exact proportions. Those people may simply have descended from two different lineages, one already mixed with Caucasian admixture and the other already much more enriched in Caucasian admixture (as was probably the case in Mycenaean Greece).

Not a satisfactory response, but assuming that sample and its calculator are accurate (which I doubt, but broadly so, probably), then it's best to just look at it as roughly 20% European (of sorts, probably Eastern/South-Eastern Europe). With an initial expansion from the Balkans to Anatolia (and West Asia more broadly), and in the likely accurate hypothesis that this tribe would be domineering and involve itself in caste-systems of sorts, 20% doesn't seem that high a number to me (if you were to assume it were originally closer to 100% in its Balkan homeland). The high Northern Middle Eastern ancestry is of course compatible with this Balkans to West Asia to Iberia hypothesis, as is the high Mediterranean ancestry.

As very minor evidence of this expansion could potentially be the mtDNA U4 found from the Halaf culture, perhaps, but I can't find where I originally saw that (it was definitely found in Syria during the later Sumer period around 5000 ybp, though - I've been able to find that (U4a2b specifically)).

 

[halfalp]

There was an U4a sample from Mari in the Jane Manco tables.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

There was an U4a sample from Mari in the Jane Manco tables.

U4 is basically the definitive EHG mtDNA - seeing that in West Asia that long ago (before any IE invasion surely) is evidence enough to me of an East Euro presence at some point (that being said, you could argue this was carried by R1b-V88 instead of my theory, but I don't think it is that likely R1b-V88 ever had a large enough presence to account for finding this).

 

[halfalp]

U4 is basically the definitive EHG mtDNA - seeing that in West Asia that long ago (before any IE invasion surely) is evidence enough to me of an East Euro presence at some point (that being said, you could argue this was carried by R1b-V88 instead of my theory, but I don't think it is that likely R1b-V88 ever had a large enough presence to account for finding this).

Well im currently thinking that U4 could be linked witz CHG. But everyone his thing.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

I honestly did not understand Maciamo's point in this post you used as a reference. Let's see: how could a pre-Indo-European Anatolian R1b-M269 lineage migrate and settle along many generations as far as Iberia, however maintain a high proportion of Northern European ancestry if he had really been a mix of the local Iberians with these Anatolian R1b cattle herders? Would this Northern European admixture have come on its own - without the mixed steppe pastoralists - to Iberia (unlikely, no significant evidence of EHG or SHG-like in Western Europe, let alone Iberia before the Chalcolithic AFAIK)? Would it be present in Anatolia since the earlier Neolithic, even before the formation of the earliest PIE community (until now not even as late as the Bronze Age did any Anatolian sample show a hint of EHG)? Considering that there should've been dozens of generations between the R1b-M269 ancestor and this ATP3, I find it much more likely that he had a genetic history in his family in which there had been mixing between Caucasian-influenced Anatolian migrants (maybe part of the waves that also defined Pre-Hellenic Greece and Minoan Crete), Eastern European migrants from the steppe (or near the steppe), and the local EEF elements. It's just weird, unless we haven't found the "right" samples in Neolithic Anatolia, that the IBERIAN (not Ukrainian or Romanian) descendant of a supposed "R1b-M269 pastoralist population" would be so high in a Northern European admixture - unless this R1b-M269 population did not come directly from Anatolia, but from somewhere in Eastern Europe or so.

For instance, the Mycenean Greeks had more "Caucasian" than "Northern European" admixture, but that does not mean that their earlier ancestors also had these exact proportions. Those people may simply have descended from two different lineages, one already mixed with Caucasian admixture and the other already much more enriched in Caucasian admixture (as was probably the case in Mycenaean Greece).

I think he's just saying that the M269 group could have split in or near the Caucasus and thus shared the same "pre-Indo-European" ancestry. ATP3 could have walked to Iberia (although sailing would have been a lot easier). A single outlier or small group, however, is unlikely to be responsible for a major continent-wide language shift - that would take a full-scale migration (the so-called Bell Beaker "reflux"), it seems to me.

 

[Ygorcs]

I think he's just saying that the M269 group could have split in or near the Caucasus and thus shared the same "pre-Indo-European" ancestry. ATP3 could have walked to Iberia (although sailing would have been a lot easier). A single outlier or small group, however, is unlikely to be responsible for a major continent-wide language shift - that would take a full-scale migration (the so-called Bell Beaker "reflux"), it seems to me.

Yeah, I can get that proposition, but I still find it hard to believe that that sample, if it had indeed come from Anatolia or the Southern Caucasus, would arrive in Iberia - probably not the first generation, but a descendant of those migrants - still carrrying 14% of Northern European ancestry, when virtually no "North European" (I presume EHG-enriched?) admixture has been found south of the Caucasus even as late as the Bronze Age (and dozens of samples have already been analyzed). I doubt that Northern European would have come to Iberia on its own without any relation to the steppe migrations that started to happen as late as the Chalcolithic. I remember that some of the Mycenaean samples had more CHG than EHG, probably resulting from a mix between mainly CHG with mixed CHG/EHG people. I don't think it's unlikely that this ATP3 with more Caucasian than Northern European admixture could result from a somewhat similar mixing, but much earlier (maybe in the Balkans? Even Neolithic samples already had some steppe-related admixture).

 

[markod]

Yeah, I can get that proposition, but I still find it hard to believe that that sample, if it had indeed come from Anatolia or the Southern Caucasus, would arrive in Iberia - probably not the first generation, but a descendant of those migrants - still carrrying 14% of Northern European ancestry, when virtually no "North European" (I presume EHG-enriched?) admixture has been found south of the Caucasus even as late as the Bronze Age (and dozens of samples have already been analyzed). I doubt that Northern European would have come to Iberia on its own without any relation to the steppe migrations that started to happen as late as the Chalcolithic. I remember that some of the Mycenaean samples had more CHG than EHG, probably resulting from a mix between mainly CHG with mixed CHG/EHG people. I don't think it's unlikely that this ATP3 with more Caucasian than Northern European admixture could result from a somewhat similar mixing, but much earlier (maybe in the Balkans? Even Neolithic samples already had some steppe-related admixture).

In those tests Villabruna ancestry usually gets assigned to the North European cluster as well.

 

[Aaron1981]

I think he's just saying that the M269 group could have split in or near the Caucasus and thus shared the same "pre-Indo-European" ancestry. ATP3 could have walked to Iberia (although sailing would have been a lot easier). A single outlier or small group, however, is unlikely to be responsible for a major continent-wide language shift - that would take a full-scale migration (the so-called Bell Beaker "reflux"), it seems to me.

ATP3 isn't even M269, at least it's certainly not agreed upon and wasn't reported in the paper. You might as well scrap that last straw there.

 

[Pip]

ATP3 isn't even M269, at least it's certainly not agreed upon and wasn't reported in the paper. You might as well scrap that last straw there.

ATP3 has positive calls at every tested developmental stage of M269 - A00, A0, A1b, BT, CT, F, GHIJK, K, R, R1, R-P297 and R-M269. It also has an autosomal mix that resembles West Balkan R-Z2103 more than anything else, yet precedes Balkan Z2103. Certainly, from the data available, I can think of no identity more likely for it than basal Z2103, basal L23 or a dead end branch of basal L51.

Autosomally, it is starkly different to its Iberian contemporaries, and appears to be an entirely new arrival. Within a few hundred years, its EHG component had become largely absent from other samples at the same location. It looks most like a brief foray from East Europeans into Northern Spain - a branch of L23 that either died out or subsequently retreated elsewhere. It also provides a possible explanation for where R1b could have picked up some Bell Beaker traits.

However, this was 3,400 BC, not 2,500 BC, and at this stage it looks more like it was the Yamna men that were wiped out by Iberian men, rather than the other way round. And from what I have seen, the Yamna-like DNA only seemed to return in any quantity several hundred years after 2,500 BC, during the Bronze Age.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

ATP3 has positive calls at every tested developmental stage of M269 - A00, A0, A1b, BT, CT, F, GHIJK, K, R, R1, R-P297 and R-M269. It also has an autosomal mix that resembles West Balkan R-Z2103 more than anything else, yet precedes Balkan Z2103. Certainly, from the data available, I can think of no identity more likely for it than basal Z2103, basal L23 or a dead end branch of basal L51.

Autosomally, it is starkly different to its Iberian contemporaries, and appears to be an entirely new arrival. Within a few hundred years, its EHG component had become largely absent from other samples at the same location. It looks most like a brief foray from East Europeans into Northern Spain - a branch of L23 that either died out or subsequently retreated elsewhere. It also provides a possible explanation for where R1b could have picked up some Bell Beaker traits.

However, this was 3,400 BC, not 2,500 BC, and at this stage it looks more like it was the Yamna men that were wiped out by Iberian men, rather than the other way round. And from what I have seen, the Yamna-like DNA only seemed to return in any quantity several hundred years after 2,500 BC, during the Bronze Age.

Why must they have been wiped out by the Iberians? For one thing, we don't have any samples during that period in France, but also I'll again refer to the Los Millares culture:

"Los Millares participated in the continental trends of Megalithism and the Beaker culture. Analysis of occupation material and grave goods from the Los Millares cemetery of 70 tholos tombs with port-hole slabs has led archaeologists to suggest that the people who lived at Los Millares were part of a stratified, unequal society which was often at war with its neighbours."

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

ATP3 has positive calls at every tested developmental stage of M269 - A00, A0, A1b, BT, CT, F, GHIJK, K, R, R1, R-P297 and R-M269. It also has an autosomal mix that resembles West Balkan R-Z2103 more than anything else, yet precedes Balkan Z2103. Certainly, from the data available, I can think of no identity more likely for it than basal Z2103, basal L23 or a dead end branch of basal L51.

Autosomally, it is starkly different to its Iberian contemporaries, and appears to be an entirely new arrival. Within a few hundred years, its EHG component had become largely absent from other samples at the same location. It looks most like a brief foray from East Europeans into Northern Spain - a branch of L23 that either died out or subsequently retreated elsewhere. It also provides a possible explanation for where R1b could have picked up some Bell Beaker traits.

However, this was 3,400 BC, not 2,500 BC, and at this stage it looks more like it was the Yamna men that were wiped out by Iberian men, rather than the other way round. And from what I have seen, the Yamna-like DNA only seemed to return in any quantity several hundred years after 2,500 BC, during the Bronze Age.

Does ATP3 really look Steppe? Or could it better be modelled as Iron Gates (perhaps with some extra EHG - it already had some) + Chalcolithic Anatolian-like admix (+ some EEF-like admix from Spanish locals)? That mimics the path I think L51 took, from M269 in the Balkans to L23 in West Asia, to L51 in Franco-Iberia.

It seems that people put any combination of EHG and CHG in any proportion down to Steppe ancestry. Perhaps M269 was originally Steppe, as it is very old, but still.

 

[Pip]

Why must they have been wiped out by the Iberians? For one thing, we don't have any samples during that period in France, but also I'll again refer to the Los Millares culture:

"Los Millares participated in the continental trends of Megalithism and the Beaker culture. Analysis of occupation material and grave goods from the Los Millares cemetery of 70 tholos tombs with port-hole slabs has led archaeologists to suggest that the people who lived at Los Millares were part of a stratified, unequal society which was often at war with its neighbours."

It is not that they must have been wiped out by the Iberians. It is merely that, given the data, this is a more likely scenario than that the Iberians were wiped out by them.

Given the data, the most likely scenario is that they (or a closely related group) retreated to somewhere more beneficial to them. They could have been ancestors of early French L51, or more likely South Central European Z2103.

 

[Pip]

Does ATP3 really look Steppe? Or could it better be modelled as Iron Gates (perhaps with some extra EHG - it already had some) + Chalcolithic Anatolian-like admix (+ some EEF-like admix from Spanish locals)? That mimics the path I think L51 took, from M269 in the Balkans to L23 in West Asia, to L51 in Franco-Iberia.

It seems that people put any combination of EHG and CHG in any proportion down to Steppe ancestry. Perhaps M269 was originally Steppe, as it is very old, but still.

The closest I have seen to ATP3 is Croatian Vucedol Z2103 - I would not say core Steppe, but most likely South East European (Steppe fringe) ancestrally.
The formation path of surviving L51 looks most likely Poland-Balkans-Cucuteni-Upper Danube-North Alps-North France. Yes, quite similar to European Z2103. But both look early - some time mid-4th millennium BC, long before the main Bell Beaker expansions.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

The closest I have seen to ATP3 is Croatian Vucedol Z2103 - I would not say core Steppe, but most likely South East European (Steppe fringe) ancestrally.
The formation path of surviving L51 looks most likely Poland-Balkans-Cucuteni-Upper Danube-North Alps-North France. Yes, quite similar to European Z2103. But both look early - some time mid-4th millennium BC, long before the main Bell Beaker expansions.

Well I suppose that is possible, but I think given the earlier branches of L23 are in West Asia, it's more likely that the split between Z2103 and L51 was from that region - which leaves only the Mediterranean hypothesis for early entry of L51 into Iberia. This is of course consistent with some branches of Z2103 later colonising the Steppe and forming Yamnaya.

 

[Pip]

Yes, I agree your hypothesis is a significant possibility, although the factors suggesting an overland route are:
1. There is a lot of core EHG in early L51 and Western Z2103, and a strong similarity to R1a-M417, suggesting a more Northerly point of origin
2. The best fit for early L51's mtDNA is heavily Cucuteni and with a significant element of Neolithic Paris Basin
3. L51 Bell Beaker's yDNA branches coalesce to an estimated origin point in Northern France
4. We know that both Bell Beaker and Z2103 had an early presence in the Upper Danube.

There might well have been some basal L51 and Z2103 within in the predominantly PF7562 Anatolian to Southern European R1b populations, but on balance I suspect these were not the branches that survived into the major lineages that we see today. I also suspect that the branches of Z2103 that colonised the Steppe were earlier offshoots from North West Ukraine/Poland that split from formational L51 when it moved down the Prut and Dniester and into core Cucuteni territory (Romania and Bulgaria).

 

[markod]

The closest I have seen to ATP3 is Croatian Vucedol Z2103 - I would not say core Steppe, but most likely South East European (Steppe fringe) ancestrally.
The formation path of surviving L51 looks most likely Poland-Balkans-Cucuteni-Upper Danube-North Alps-North France. Yes, quite similar to European Z2103. But both look early - some time mid-4th millennium BC, long before the main Bell Beaker expansions.

Are you sure? The Spanish Chalcolithic samples cluster more or less with Gökhem Neolithic in the Günther (2015) PCA.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

ATP3 isn't even M269, at least it's certainly not agreed upon and wasn't reported in the paper. You might as well scrap that last straw there.

Not my straw. My point was simply, even if someone with M269 y-dna managed to make it to Iberia early on, by a high or low "road", that that doesn't explain continent-wide language replacement. The Beaker "expansion" into central Europe was of a trade network, even maybe of an associated cultural complex (Megalithic "missionaries"?), but what it wasn't, apparently, was a language-carrying migration.

 

[Pip]

Are you sure? The Spanish Chalcolithic samples cluster more or less with Gökhem Neolithic in the Günther (2015) PCA.

Yes, the Spanish Chalcolithic samples are indeed generally autosomally similar to Southern Swedish Neolithic, apart from ATP3 (most likely M269) which is rather different. Of course, Southern Sweden is pretty close to Poland, which looks a likely origin point for formative L23. This perhaps leads to a third possibility - that ATP3 was brought to Northern Spain from the South Eastern Baltic by maritime Megalithic folk that were connected to both areas - although, if so, it appears unlikely to be a L51 Bell Beaker ancestor.