All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[ So we have the " Men " in IE languages that doesn't have any paralells, but the " Women " does have some. ] I never was being a fan to those big proto linguistic families. I always believed it was some excuse to fit the " Babel Myth ". I'm 100% for the cultural influence, i think this is over our own person, looking at the 21 century. I think Maikop and some Balkans Neolithic Cultures have intensively influenced the Steppe people, and those influence have ultimately a point in the Middle-East. What you call Proto-Euphratic, might just be the idealised view of some linguistic link spewing in all ancient Middle-East. There was never an Indo-European/Sumerian proto language, but the ancestor of the most culturally important, might have influenced the other by some cultural roads. Languages dont have to be related to have common themes or words. Pontic Steppe and Middle-East are not that far.
 
Ygorcs said:
Besides the arguably ad hoc correspondences between PIE roots made to look similar to the Sumerian, with several irregularities (e.g. in some words final -eh2 disappears, in some others it becomes -ah), which were pointed out in the article I linked above (some of the supposed cognates sound really forced to fit into the Sumerian word), for me it is really difficult to reconcile this hypothesis with the more accepted chronology and geographic/archaeological traces of PIE. I mean: Proto-Anatolian split being dated to ~4000 BC, Early totally undivided PIE is dated to immediately before that date; Sumerians are thought to have been present in Sumer at least in the later mid of the 4th millennium BC, so that leaves around ~500 years between PIE and Euphratic before it was replaced by Sumerian (and that must've been pretty early, because as far as I can see Whittaker's Euphratic is basically undifferentiated PIE, with few changes).

Therefore, we must find an explanation (in genetics and archaeology) that fits an early presence of the very same or virtually identical PIE in both the Pontic-Caspian steppe (definitely associated with the expansion of most of IE branches, Anatolian excepted perhaps) and more than 1500 km to its south in South Mesopotamia/Sumer. Such a linguistic closeness should then indicate a very recent migration to or from the Pontic-Caspian area from or to South Mesopotamia. It must've been a migration bringing a different culture and probably ethnic/genetic makeup roughly between 4500-4000 BC, because after that Euphratean would've been the language of newcomers, not the supposed established language of a proto-urban people who supposedly invented writing (not the Sumerians, as per Whittaker's hypothesis), or PIE in the steppes being spoken by pastoral primitive tribes would've been the very recent arrival coming from a proto-urban farming culture in a totally different environment than the one reflected by reconstructed PIE. For many reasons I just do not see many (archaeological, linguistic, genetic) evidences to back this idea up.

The proportion of R1b-Z2103 is very intriguing, but considering it is found in non-negligible percentages among some Iranic populations its frequency could've exploded more or less recently regionally. I very much doubt a Mesopotamian population by ~4000 BC would not have brought much Levant_Neolithic and Iranian_Neolithic to the Pontic-Caspian steppe, not to mention the apparent organic cultural development without strong ruptures in the western steppe during the Chalcolithic (AFAIK).

If Euphratic is true, then we definitely need to find a chronologically very close (in comparison with the Uruk period when Sumerian was demonstrably spoken) connection between the Pontic-Caspian area and Mesopotamia. I personally would find it a bit easier to believe in a Sumerian-PIE connection not with a substrate language in Sumer itself, but with Sumerian being brought to Sumer from its original homeland much closer and maybe in direct contact with Early PIE or maybe even the parent language of PIE (somewhere in the Caucasus? Or in the Black Sea coast? Who knows).
Click to expand...

Well in terms of archaeology there's a decent amount backing it up - of course, I've mentioned the swastikas and metallurgy spreading from the Balkans originally, but what about the overall pretty great similarities between Vinca and Ubaid symbols, figurines and metallurgy? The early 20th century archaeologists saw Vinca as a development of Mesopotamian cultures like that of Ubaid, but now we know if anything it was the other way round - metallurgy is oldest in Vinca, as are the symbols (which bear some similarities, but the extent of this is debatable) and the figurines (those lizardmen people think are aliens).

Also, why could it not potentially be the case that one branch travelled down Mesopotamia, and another continued in the highland region to the North (eventually moving up into the Steppe). That, though, seems like an added complication and so goes against Occam's razor I suppose. But, there is a neater solution - what about Leyla-Tepe - these guys are theorised to have been Ubaid-period migrants, who brought with them the first metallurgy to the Caucasus, and are theorised to have been founders of the Maykop culture. The fact that Maykop seems to be Y DNA G, J and L could be explained by burial differences or differences in location (the pastoralists might have been in a different region than sampled, as is the case with the Caucasus today lots of different groups can live in a relatively small area isolated by terrain). From looking at where the samples were taken, it appears the Y DNA G, J and L were not found in the Eastern Caucasus - whereas perhaps Z2103 migrated to the Steppe through th easier Azerbaijani-Dagestani route (near to where that Chalcolithic Z2103 was found). Maykop Steppe is just completely mind-boggling to me - how Siberian HG ancestry is there I have no idea. Whatever the case, I'm dead-set on Z2103 from West Asia, which leads the Z2103 of Yamnaya to be Southern in origin. Also, there's the presence of red hair and blue eyes carried by someone with Y DNA L in the Areni-1 cave, that surely is ultimately of R1b origin (so indicating close contact between the two). Caucasian red hair is still preserved in the North, among the Chechens, who actually have an awful lot of it.

As for Sumerian perhaps being the contact source with PIE instead of the substrate theory - firstly, there is that point about "Ur" meaning village in proto-Dravidian which I see as unlikely to be coincidental, but also the fact that the Sumerian migrants are theorised to have invaded from the Arabian littoral (likely the Southern Zagros), which is where the later Elamites were based - and probably not by coincidence, there is the hypothetical Elamo-Dravidian language family (linking Elamite to the Dravidian languages). I think the civilising movement of Iranian farmers eastwards into India was of Dravidian stock, and that the Indus Valley civilisation was Dravidian, only for Dravidian speakers to have been pushed SE by the later arrival of the Indo-Aryans (so, I don't think Dravidian has anything originally to do with what people now consider as Dravidian (Veddoid people like Tamils), but rather Iranian farmers).
 
Last edited:
It seems Eurogenes and his fans are concerned that the Max Planck Institute people (and perhaps the Reich group at Harvard) continue to see the movement of people and language from the south Caucasus into the steppe through Maykop or steppe Maykop.

Although I'm no Eurogenes fan, I've lately been thinking that the genetic movement perhaps stems back to the late Mesolithic perhaps, which would be too early for the language movement, wouldn't it?

Is this all based on rumors or has something been published?
 
Angela said:
It seems Eurogenes and his fans are concerned that the Max Planck Institute people (and perhaps the Reich group at Harvard) continue to see the movement of people and language from the south Caucasus into the steppe through Maykop or steppe Maykop.

Although I'm no Eurogenes fan, I've lately been thinking that the genetic movement perhaps stems back to the late Mesolithic perhaps, which would be too early for the language movement, wouldn't it?

Is this all based on rumors or has something been published?
Click to expand...

It's rumours, but I doubt Davidski is the kind of person to lie - the rumour was originally that Kura-Araxes was the homeland, not Maykop (though I see Leyla-Tepe to Maykop to Yamnaya as more likely), if I'm not mistaken (but maybe that's changed - it's all in the comments section of the latest post). Davidski is clearly an extremely intelligent man, but his history on certain forums that shall not be named shows that he's afraid of West Asian influences, and would prefer the story of the Indo-Europeans to be limited to that of Europeans. I cannot believe I of all people am in the position of accusing someone of racial bias, yet here I am.
 
What can be linked more confidently and recently between Western Indo-Europeans, the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and the Dravidians is G-P303. I don't know what this might tell us, if anything.

Returning to the Steppe dwellers/R1b-L51 people with whom Balkan G-PF3345 traded, mixed cultures, bred and then moved westwards, what language would they have spoken? y-DNA branching would suggest they were outnumbered by G-PF3345 until around 2,800 BC, and mtDNA analysis would suggest that their female lines were outnumbered by the female lines of the PF3345 communities even at the height of Bell Beaker. I would suggest they were likely to be bilingual, or that different sections of them adopted different languages, almost irrespective of their y-DNA historical inheritance. Perhaps this might explain why some P312 communities apparently spoke Indo-European and others apparently spoke Basque, even though they had a common paternal ancestor only ten generations or so previously.
 
Angela said:
It seems Eurogenes and his fans are concerned that the Max Planck Institute people (and perhaps the Reich group at Harvard) continue to see the movement of people and language from the south Caucasus into the steppe through Maykop or steppe Maykop.

Although I'm no Eurogenes fan, I've lately been thinking that the genetic movement perhaps stems back to the late Mesolithic perhaps, which would be too early for the language movement, wouldn't it?

Is this all based on rumors or has something been published?
Click to expand...

That's also what my "instincts" looking at all the data available tell me, too. I do think that PIE is somehow the social/cultural outcome of a migration from Transcaucasia (but I honestly don't find it plausible the West Asian source was much to the south of that region, e.g. Sumer), but it seems every time clearer to me that that mixing and maybe acculturation process happened during the Late Mesolithic or Early Neolithic, not just a few centuries before PIE started to split and spread from the steppes. I think the genetic, cultural (and presumably cultural) scenario that brought PIE to life was developed more organically and in a longer period in the Pontic-Caspian area. Thus Pre-PIE could've come from West Asia, but not PIE itself, the earliest common denominator of all extant IE languages.
 
With the current datas, Max Planck, Harvard, Jena would just be an Argument from Authority. We are still talking about a language, wich is an immaterial cultural traits. Some people have already hard time to listen that IE spread with the proved genetic R1b-R1a migrations in the Chalcolithic-Bronze Age transition, so i dont know what those authorities could bring more to give us any other clues. Yes the actual Anatolian samples that we have dont show EHG, but i think it's pretty much irrelevent, at the same level Yamnaya dont show ENA a part from neighbors of Late Maikop, wich would ultimately be already in Transcaucasia in Neolithic times. Obviously, at this point any conclusions would only be valid for someone own hypothesis. There still plenty of samples to get from the Mesolithic times in Anatolia and Transcaucasia to make us change our views.
 
halfalp said:
With the current datas, Max Planck, Harvard, Jena would just be an Argument from Authority. We are still talking about a language, wich is an immaterial cultural traits. Some people have already hard time to listen that IE spread with the proved genetic R1b-R1a migrations in the Chalcolithic-Bronze Age transition, so i dont know what those authorities could bring more to give us any other clues. Yes the actual Anatolian samples that we have dont show EHG, but i think it's pretty much irrelevent, at the same level Yamnaya dont show ENA a part from neighbors of Late Maikop, wich would ultimately be already in Transcaucasia in Neolithic times. Obviously, at this point any conclusions would only be valid for someone own hypothesis. There still plenty of samples to get from the Mesolithic times in Anatolia and Transcaucasia to make us change our views.
Click to expand...

I really hope we can get some Leyla-Tepe samples, to see if they were also Y DNA J, L and G like Maykop. I'm presuming with Maykop that the elite would be Z2103 if Z2103 had a presence there, and so there isn't any "hidden" Z2103 as a result of poor burials/cremation (as the elites were in the kurgans, presumably). In light of that, and ignoring the frankly ridiculous idea that PIE was founded by women (I mean, that is the absolute ultimate feminist anti-Nazi fantasy, and I think is actually being entertained at the moment), this leaves either Leyla-Tepe being Z2103 (and a migration to the Steppe via Dagestan, bordering the Caspian Sea) or the impossibility of a Caucasian homeland for Z2103 and the Yamnaya elite. That raises more questions than it answers, though, which is why I'm putting my prediction of Leyla-Tepe being Z2103.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I really hope we can get some Leyla-Tepe samples, to see if they were also Y DNA J, L and G like Maykop. I'm presuming with Maykop that the elite would be Z2103 if Z2103 had a presence there, and so there isn't any "hidden" Z2103 as a result of poor burials/cremation (as the elites were in the kurgans, presumably). In light of that, and ignoring the frankly ridiculous idea that PIE was founded by women (I mean, that is the absolute ultimate feminist anti-Nazi fantasy, and I think is actually being entertained at the moment), this leaves either Leyla-Tepe being Z2103 (and a migration to the Steppe via Dagestan, bordering the Caspian Sea) or the impossibility of a Caucasian homeland for Z2103 and the Yamnaya elite. That raises more questions than it answers, though, which is why I'm putting my prediction of Leyla-Tepe being Z2103.
Click to expand...

DNA from Shulaveri-Shomu, Leila-Tepe, Jar Burial, Ubaid, Uruk or even Kelteminar in the East. There is plenty of interesting cultures we dont have anything on. But looking at the dna we already have, i bet all those culture gonna have some J's with maybe some surprises. What i'm really interested on, is a complete paper on paleolithic/mesolithic Anatolia, with samples from every corners of the map. I bet some big surprises can get from there, and it would pretty much seal the history of R1b for once.
 
If Leyla-Tepe turns out to be like Maykop in terms of Y DNA, a big rethink would be needed. Z2103 does not seem to be indigenous to the Steppe, UNLESS its heightened Iraqi distribution is from people like the Gutians who MAY have been Steppe invaders who went South of the Caucasus. I doubt it though - there's so many possibilities at this stage, the only thing that seems set in stone is that late PIE was spread from the Steppe.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
If Leyla-Tepe turns out to be like Maykop in terms of Y DNA, a big rethink would be needed. Z2103 does not seem to be indigenous to the Steppe, UNLESS its heightened Iraqi distribution is from people like the Gutians who MAY have been Steppe invaders who went South of the Caucasus. I doubt it though - there's so many possibilities at this stage, the only thing that seems set in stone is that late PIE was spread from the Steppe.
Click to expand...

Now that we have Maikop dna, there is very poor chance that Leyla-Tepe turns out R1b or even less likely R1a. And we shouldn't juge modern basal forms of R1b or the middle-eastern Z2103 in case of ancient origins. Soqotri males are plenty of basal J*, does J* come from Soqotri Islands? Obviously not. There is still plenty to understand, and a lot of people are only tested for snp's wich might confuse the results.
 
halfalp said:
Now that we have Maikop dna, there is very poor chance that Leyla-Tepe turns out R1b or even less likely R1a. And we shouldn't juge modern basal forms of R1b or the middle-eastern Z2103 in case of ancient origins. Soqotri males are plenty of basal J*, does J* come from Soqotri Islands? Obviously not. There is still plenty to understand, and a lot of people are only tested for snp's wich might confuse the results.
Click to expand...

It ain't gonna be R1a - I do think R1b is a possibility though, even if it isn't the most likely based on what evidence we do have. Also, Soqotri is a different case due to its obviously high levels of isolation. With the whole of Iraq, that argument doesn't hold on.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
It ain't gonna be R1a - I do think R1b is a possibility though, even if it isn't the most likely based on what evidence we do have. Also, Soqotri is a different case due to its obviously high levels of isolation. With the whole of Iraq, that argument doesn't hold on.
Click to expand...

Why would Culturally Leyla-Tepe be a potential ancestor to Maikop and be R1b if Maikop is not? If R1b-M269 came from a back back migration from Middle-East, it have to be with another culture. R1b in Mesolithic was from Baltic to Pontic Steppe to Balkans, all the basal forms, the weird ones like the Kura-Araxe R1b could be ultimately coming from Europe through Anatolia and Caucasus and not the reverse. The question is, and start with R1b-P297 found for now only in Baltic, it has two sons, one roamed in Central Asia were it was found in Botai, the second is the major leaving one today, R1b-M269. Looking at the dispersion of the Father and the Brother, it's likely not born in the Middle-East, what do you think? So the question is, did R1b-M269 born in the Balkans or the Pontic Steppe, roam into the Middle-East, give birth to L23 and ultimately back migrate into the Pontic Steppe? Only ancient samples can tell us, but if that happened, it likely happened in the Caucasus, and it likely happened before the Neolithic where that R1b-M269 only meet some CHG-like people and not the people that would later give raise to the Neolithic ones. It's possible that V88 and M269 journey together south of the Caucasus at some point, that V88 stayed and ultimately happened in Africa, while M269 turned back into the Steppe. Or V88 came from the Balkans, while M269 from the Caucasus.
 
halfalp said:
Why would Culturally Leyla-Tepe be a potential ancestor to Maikop and be R1b if Maikop is not? If R1b-M269 came from a back back migration from Middle-East, it have to be with another culture. R1b in Mesolithic was from Baltic to Pontic Steppe to Balkans, all the basal forms, the weird ones like the Kura-Araxe R1b could be ultimately coming from Europe through Anatolia and Caucasus and not the reverse. The question is, and start with R1b-P297 found for now only in Baltic, it has two sons, one roamed in Central Asia were it was found in Botai, the second is the major leaving one today, R1b-M269. Looking at the dispersion of the Father and the Brother, it's likely not born in the Middle-East, what do you think? So the question is, did R1b-M269 born in the Balkans or the Pontic Steppe, roam into the Middle-East, give birth to L23 and ultimately back migrate into the Pontic Steppe? Only ancient samples can tell us, but if that happened, it likely happened in the Caucasus, and it likely happened before the Neolithic where that R1b-M269 only meet some CHG-like people and not the people that would later give raise to the Neolithic ones. It's possible that V88 and M269 journey together south of the Caucasus at some point, that V88 stayed and ultimately happened in Africa, while M269 turned back into the Steppe. Or V88 came from the Balkans, while M269 from the Caucasus.
Click to expand...

I know, I admit it doesn't seem so likely that Leyla-Tepe would be Z2103 when Maykop was not - but it is possible. Also, the same argument applies for Maykop and Yamnaya - Maykop seems to have been a large cultural influence on Yamnaya, yet there are of different Y DNA profiles (and I'm not accepting a female migration). Based on the many thinks outlined in previous posts, I think it is likely there was definitely a presence of R1b L23 (and earlier R1b M269 pre-L23) in the Middle East during the Chalcolithic, so I'm just trying to make sense of that really. The evidence is enough to at least have strong suspicions, which is basically where I'm at.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I know, I admit it doesn't seem so likely that Leyla-Tepe would be Z2103 when Maykop was not - but it is possible. Also, the same argument applies for Maykop and Yamnaya - Maykop seems to have been a large cultural influence on Yamnaya, yet there are of different Y DNA profiles (and I'm not accepting a female migration). Based on the many thinks outlined in previous posts, I think it is likely there was definitely a presence of R1b L23 (and earlier R1b M269 pre-L23) in the Middle East during the Chalcolithic, so I'm just trying to make sense of that really. The evidence is enough to at least have strong suspicions, which is basically where I'm at.
Click to expand...

Thing is, one exemple doesn't imply an other. Maikop y-dna seems to match perfectly Central Transcaucasia, like the L one, linked with Areni-1 cave and Maikop, so there was a an obvious Demic migration from transcaucasia to maikop, also maikop looks not related but a little bit similar to Kura-Araxe wich have almost the same y-dna lineages. The fact that Mesolithic North Iran and Central Asian Namazga were all J and that J is very present and dominant in Eastern Caucasus, both North and South, gives it likely that Leyla-Tepe was J. J1 was also found in two eastern european specimens full EHG, this all makes J likely to have dominated the Caucasus alone until the Neolithic. Also Leyla-Tepe was mostly a Jar Burial Culture, wich was absolutely never found in Eastern Europe, why would they change or abandoned that cultural trait? And there is that story of this Kurgan wich, seems odd. There is need of further investigation and dating to ensure the relatibility with Pontic Steppe kurgans. Kurgans are like the Kurgan Stelae, controversy found in odd places. Maybe Steppe people just were highly influenced by their southern neighbors. As for female migration, i'm still pretty sure it played a high role in the propagation of CHG in the Steppe, but that's of me.
 
Both Balkans and Pontic Steppe shows very early some transcaucasian mtdna signals like H13 in Proto-Lepenski Vir and Iron Gates Culture for Mesolithic and H2a1 in Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog for transitional HG-Chalcolithic, but we cannot found any y-dna goddam marker, why? Also why is the Khvalynsk R1b and H2a1 with CHG but the J1's individuals doesn't show it at all, when even in a totally but oddly context, Mal'ta show some? What could Steppe People give to their southern counterpart for being giving some waifu and cattle? or were they really the proto-thiefs? Things are something weird in Archeogenetic, but they barely answer the questions, just giving some more.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I doubt it though - there's so many possibilities at this stage, the only thing that seems set in stone is that late PIE was spread from the Steppe.
Click to expand...

If there's no steppe DNA in Anatolia, and no southern populations entered the steppe in the Bronze Age, that would pose a serious problem for the steppe hypothesis.

That's why it's weird that the authors of the Caucasus paper didn't address that their data seemingly falsifies the idea of genetic exchange between the Transcaucasus and the steppe.
 
markod said:
If there's no steppe DNA in Anatolia, and no southern populations entered the steppe in the Bronze Age, that would pose a serious problem for the steppe hypothesis.
That's why it's weird that the authors of the Caucasus paper didn't address that their data seemingly falsifies the idea of genetic exchange between the Transcaucasus and the steppe.
Click to expand...
But southern people got into Steppe in copper age. Specifically in the 5th millennium BC.... Just saying.
Maybe that conclusion is not there because they know more than what they are publishing.
 
Olympus Mons said:
But southern people got into Steppe in copper age. Specifically in the 5th millennium BC.... Just saying.
Click to expand...

You're probably more familiar than me with the archaelogical evidence, and it makes sense that there would have been an early migration from the south onto the steppe. The problem is for me is that an Indo-Hittite split that early just doesn't seem likely.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 249765 times.

Back
Top