All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[Olympus Mons]

I know I keep harping on this, but... have you guys read this ?

https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/on...p-r1b-l51-in-late-repin-early-yamna-settlers/

The article proposes that L51 in Hungary came early from a Late Repin / early- or pre-Yamna culture still light in CHG. They would have made room for themselves in the Hungarian plain, and would have been displaced by the arrival en masse of later Yamna men. They would then have moved north and west into Bell Beaker territory, along routes some of them had perhaps already explored (?).

I find the arguments very convincing.

But why do you find it convincing?

 

[hrvclv]

But why do you find it convincing?

Because an early departure from the steppe of a small group (+ founder effect) would explain :

- why so few L51 have been found among Yamna so far, even though...

- those "Hungarian" L51 are so steppe-like autosomally.

- why they are low on CHG. (Their departure would have preceded the heavy influx of late copper/bronze age CHG into the steppe)

- why they suddenly began to move northwest when Yamna proper expanded.

- why their North West IE languages are a "clade" of their own among IE languages (basically, the bulk of the Centum group)

- even, perhaps but much more conservatively, some linguistic traits found in Proto-Italo-Celtic, which were long thought to be innovations, and might in fact be archaisms, like, e.g, the mediopassive in -r. Old tribe, old language ? Satem can derive from Centum; it doesn't work the other way round. (Yes, I know... linguistics again!)

 

[Olympus Mons]

On the Look out for L51.
If one really believes that L51 was from the east (fair enough) and from 5^th millennia BC and has not been found yet, what really puzzles me is the human trait of “pretend not to”, which I always found strange (mostly because its linked to left leaning people – Unrelated, sorry).
A good way to look what would be obvious, at least to me, is well represented and http://homeland.ku.dk/ from the guy from Copenhagen university, right?
So if you use the slider below to move forward in time, we see the Kum6 girl with CHG popping at 4.8K BC and then for thousand years a complete blank space in the South Balkans in terms of aDna. We see the all those events popping up, wheels , wagond, etc but no DNA for it. Just remain a blank space. So one would really put forward the option of R1b-L51 be from there. Any reasonable person would say, well, we really need to look into Bulgaria and Romania , the Boian, Gulmenita, them mixing with Hamangia (different people) and forming later the Pre-cucuteni and pre Trypolie, with was a mix of people between whoever and very local starcevo like people. So, rather than Keep betting on the steppe, that has so many samples, let’s look archeologically in south Balkans? We know that Balkans actually were moving into steppe much before steppe ever moved west, especially the cucuteni/trypolie earlier groups.

Note: I like the site, because for shulaveri-Shomu he used 4900bc, which I believe was a date made up by me, because I wanted to make a point that it was on the transverse to 5^th milenia bc and didn’t want to use 5000bc. So 4.900 worked OK. And I believe is why even Johanne Krause use it in his presentation.

 

[halfalp]

This interactive map is interesting. It account Suvorovo as the earliest steppe culture outside steppe, but we dont no most of it, culturally or genetically. People were saying Maikop had the first wheels, when from the same age, there is a wheel from Switzerland + all the " controversial " earlier wheels from Cucuteni.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Because an early departure from the steppe of a small group (+ founder effect) would explain :

- why so few L51 have been found among Yamna so far, even though...

- those "Hungarian" L51 are so steppe-like autosomally.

- why they are low on CHG. (Their departure would have preceded the heavy influx of late copper/bronze age CHG into the steppe)

- why they suddenly began to move northwest when Yamna proper expanded.

- why their North West IE languages are a "clade" of their own among IE languages (basically, the bulk of the Centum group)

- even, perhaps but much more conservatively, some linguistic traits found in Proto-Italo-Celtic, which were long thought to be innovations, and might in fact be archaisms, like, e.g, the mediopassive in -r. Old tribe, old language ? Satem can derive from Centum; it doesn't work the other way round. (Yes, I know... linguistics again!)

Isn't it just much simpler that L51 has nothing to do with Yamnaya or the Steppe in the first place? It surely isn't a coincidence that the Hungarian L51 was found amongst heavily Steppe Z2103, with the obvious answer being that this area is roughly at the boundary between the L51 and Z2103 worlds (one from the West, the other from the East). I recently spoke to a Danish researcher, and he actually goes so far as to claim that the reason Z2103 seems to dominate Yamnaya and not L51 is that L51 folk were part of the "losing tribe" that was beaten by Z2103 and had to search elsewhere for their glory. Where is the archaeological evidence of this? But, let's go with the pre-Yamnaya Steppe hypothesis of a L51 migration into Europe - why is it, then, that the most archaic subclades of L51 are found among the Western Mediterranean islands, with but a trace in the Balkans? And why is it also that L51 is clearly related to the expansion of Beaker pottery across Europe, which for a Steppe hypothesis would require that L51 arrived in Central Europe surely no earlier than 3000 BCE (and presumably centuries later), unless L51 just remained hidden for over a thousand years. And what about the fact that it seems pretty obvious that a lot of the Middle Eastern Z2103 is not of Steppe origin - this would mean that Z2103 and L51 couldn't have split on the Steppe. A lot doesn't make sense with the Yamnaya theory, which is pretty much just based on "I see Steppe signal among Yamnaya, I see the first signs of L51 associated with Steppe signal, I think L51 from Yamnaya".

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Because an early departure from the steppe of a small group (+ founder effect) would explain :

- why so few L51 have been found among Yamna so far, even though...

- those "Hungarian" L51 are so steppe-like autosomally.

- why they are low on CHG. (Their departure would have preceded the heavy influx of late copper/bronze age CHG into the steppe)

- why they suddenly began to move northwest when Yamna proper expanded.

- why their North West IE languages are a "clade" of their own among IE languages (basically, the bulk of the Centum group)

- even, perhaps but much more conservatively, some linguistic traits found in Proto-Italo-Celtic, which were long thought to be innovations, and might in fact be archaisms, like, e.g, the mediopassive in -r. Old tribe, old language ? Satem can derive from Centum; it doesn't work the other way round. (Yes, I know... linguistics again!)

What about this as a possible source of L51 instead?

Los Millares participated in the continental trends of Megalithism and the Beaker culture. Analysis of occupation material and grave goods from the Los Millares cemetery of 70 tholos tombs with port-hole slabs has led archaeologists to suggest that the people who lived at Los Millares were part of a stratified, unequal society which was often at war with its neighbours.

Los Millares was also responsible for the earliest copper metallurgy in Western Europe, which was something that can clearly be linked to R1b L23. Also, its tholos tombs clearly point to an East Mediterranean origin.

 

[hrvclv]

Isn't it just much simpler that L51 has nothing to do with Yamnaya or the Steppe in the first place? It surely isn't a coincidence that the Hungarian L51 was found amongst heavily Steppe Z2103, with the obvious answer being that this area is roughly at the boundary between the L51 and Z2103 worlds (one from the West, the other from the East). I recently spoke to a Danish researcher, and he actually goes so far as to claim that the reason Z2103 seems to dominate Yamnaya and not L51 is that L51 folk were part of the "losing tribe" that was beaten by Z2103 and had to search elsewhere for their glory. Where is the archaeological evidence of this? But, let's go with the pre-Yamnaya Steppe hypothesis of a L51 migration into Europe - why is it, then, that the most archaic subclades of L51 are found among the Western Mediterranean islands, with but a trace in the Balkans? And why is it also that L51 is clearly related to the expansion of Beaker pottery across Europe, which for a Steppe hypothesis would require that L51 arrived in Central Europe surely no earlier than 3000 BCE (and presumably centuries later), unless L51 just remained hidden for over a thousand years. And what about the fact that it seems pretty obvious that a lot of the Middle Eastern Z2103 is not of Steppe origin - this would mean that Z2103 and L51 couldn't have split on the Steppe. A lot doesn't make sense with the Yamnaya theory, which is pretty much just based on "I see Steppe signal among Yamnaya, I see the first signs of L51 associated with Steppe signal, I think L51 from Yamnaya".

Well... the one obvious objection remains... the language. As said above, centum to satem is a one way street. How can one explain the fact that an R1b population in west (central?) Europe might have bequeathed its language to steppe people, from there to R1a populations, which in turn would have carried it all the way to India ?

In Cucuteni, you find loads of G2a, I2a, even J. Where are the R ?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Well... the one obvious objection remains... the language. As said above, centum to satem is a one way street. How can one explain the fact that an R1b population in west (central?) Europe might have bequeathed its language to steppe people, from there to R1a populations, which in turn would have carried it all the way to India ?

In Cucuteni, you find loads of G2a, I2a, even J. Where are the R ?

Well, there's two potential solutions - the language is of Corded Ware origin, or Indo-European languages (ignoring Anatolian languages, which is a whole different debate) are ultimately not from the Steppe. I lean towards the former solution heavily. Satemisation would happen later on, on the Steppe, potentially as here (von Bradke's hypothesis; controversial).

All Western IE languages derive from U152 and U106 groups - the only two Central European L51 subclades. I do not think this is a coincidence - this is the meeting point between BB and CWC.

And I'm not sure what you mean when talking about Cucuteni. As regarding the Balkans, I see it as the main breeding ground of R1b folk since the Epigravettian period (neatly explaining things like Villabruna being R1b - Epigravettian is in pink by the way, whereas Solutrean is in red). I think M269 originated in the Balkans, and that it spread into the Middle East with the very first Chalcolithic cultures (Vinca, Halaf etc.). I think that hierarchies with a farmer peasant class and a metallurgical/pastoral elite class were present during this expansion. L23 would form somewhere in West Asia, and I think, from somewhere in West Asia, pre-Z2103 and pre-L51 split, with what would become L51 going by sea to Southern Iberia and what would become Z2103 continuing on in West Asia (both in search for metals). Z2103 would later go up into the Steppe (Yamnaya etc. - potentially for their flocks), whereas L51 would later expand across Europe as part of the Beaker complex.

 

[halfalp]

Well, there's two potential solutions - the language is of Corded Ware origin, or Indo-European languages (ignoring Anatolian languages, which is a whole different debate) are ultimately not from the Steppe. I lean towards the former solution heavily. Satemisation would happen later on, on the Steppe, potentially as here (von Bradke's hypothesis; controversial).

All Western IE languages derive from U152 and U106 groups - the only two Central European L51 subclades. I do not think this is a coincidence - this is the meeting point between BB and CWC.

And I'm not sure what you mean when talking about Cucuteni. As regarding the Balkans, I see it as the main breeding ground of R1b folk since the Epigravettian period (neatly explaining things like Villabruna being R1b - Epigravettian is in pink by the way, whereas Solutrean is in red). I think M269 originated in the Balkans, and that it spread into the Middle East with the very first Chalcolithic cultures (Vinca, Halaf etc.). I think that hierarchies with a farmer peasant class and a metallurgical/pastoral elite class were present during this expansion. L23 would form somewhere in West Asia, and I think, from somewhere in West Asia, pre-Z2103 and pre-L51 split, with what would become L51 going by sea to Southern Iberia and what would become Z2103 continuing on in West Asia (both in search for metals). Z2103 would later go up into the Steppe (Yamnaya etc. - potentially for their flocks), whereas L51 would later expand across Europe as part of the Beaker complex.

Ok but the problem here is that you show your distrust about Yamnaya only to give credit to CWC ( wich does way less sense ). This means, your mistrust about Yamnaya have nothing to do with datas, both genetic and archeological, but more with a kind of bias. So what's the problem, would you mind to tell us why is Yamnaya so... irrelevent?

 

[hrvclv]

@Tobe :

"Well, there's two potential solutions - the language is of Corded Ware origin, or Indo-European languages (ignoring Anatolian languages, which is a whole different debate) are ultimately not from the Steppe. I lean towards the former solution heavily. Satemisation would happen later on, on the Steppe, potentially as here (von Bradke's hypothesis; controversial).

All Western IE languages derive from U152 and U106 groups - the only two Central European L51 subclades. I do not think this is a coincidence - this is the meeting point between BB and CWC."

So the arrival of L51 in CW territory - which incidentally coincides with the "beginning of the end" of the CWC , implying a degree of violence - would have been accompanied by the adoption of the losers' language by the winners ?

Almost simultaneously, the (necessarily) Centum language of those western CW would have turned satem on its way to Sintashta, a daughter culture ?

In the meantime, further to the east, the Tokharians (likely descending from the Afanasievo Culture, which predates Sintashta/Andronovo) would have gone on with a Centum language which shows affinities with Germanic, ancient Greek, and Italo-Celtic ?

I find it hard to reconcile those facts...

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

@Tobe :

"Well, there's two potential solutions - the language is of Corded Ware origin, or Indo-European languages (ignoring Anatolian languages, which is a whole different debate) are ultimately not from the Steppe. I lean towards the former solution heavily. Satemisation would happen later on, on the Steppe, potentially as here (von Bradke's hypothesis; controversial).

All Western IE languages derive from U152 and U106 groups - the only two Central European L51 subclades. I do not think this is a coincidence - this is the meeting point between BB and CWC."

So the arrival of L51 in CW territory - which incidentally coincides with the "beginning of the end" of the CWC , implying a degree of violence - would have been accompanied by the adoption of the losers' language by the winners ?

Almost simultaneously, the (necessarily) Centum language of those western CW would have turned satem on its way to Sintashta, a daughter culture ?

In the meantime, further to the east, the Tokharians (likely descending from the Afanasievo Culture, which predates Sintashta/Andronovo) would have gone on with a Centum language which shows affinities with Germanic, ancient Greek, and Italo-Celtic ?

I find it hard to reconcile those facts...

People have speculated about, for example with the Basques, the invaders being "absent parents" or something of the sort - I don't see why this line of reasoning is so impossible to apply here too, with Corded-derived women raising the kids. The Beaker folk are known to have assimilated into many different cultures they stumbled across, so it isn't so unlikely. And, the satemisation step has to happen at some point no? Why not at a later date on the Steppe? It certainly makes a lot of sense when you consider the more "modern" IE languages are the very ones that are satem, and the folk that spoke these languages probably left the Steppe at a relatively late date.

This actually is in perfect harmony with the Tocharians, who would not have been of late Steppe origin, but would have departed early on. There is no contradiction here - satemisation = late Steppe innovation.

Oh, and another thing - Afanasievo probably introduced metallurgy to China (just another consideration with the obvious R1b-metallurgy link).

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Ok but the problem here is that you show your distrust about Yamnaya only to give credit to CWC ( wich does way less sense ). This means, your mistrust about Yamnaya have nothing to do with datas, both genetic and archeological, but more with a kind of bias. So what's the problem, would you mind to tell us why is Yamnaya so... irrelevent?

I don't think that L51 came from the Steppe. I think most of (or at least a lot of) the Steppe admix among Central Euro-derived Beaker folk was inherited through admixture with Steppe-rich females. The only real candidate is the Corded Ware culture, since Yamnaya only made it to the Balkans (and I think L51 spread across Europe from the West). Then there's also the point about phenotypes, but that becomes less scientific.

 

[Ygorcs]

I don't think that L51 came from the Steppe. I think most of (or at least a lot of) the Steppe admix among Central Euro-derived Beaker folk was inherited through admixture with Steppe-rich females. The only real candidate is the Corded Ware culture, since Yamnaya only made it to the Balkans (and I think L51 spread across Europe from the West). Then there's also the point about phenotypes, but that becomes less scientific.

Do you think L51 came originally from the Balkans? And where did it spread? First from the Balkans to Iberia or Southwestern Europe more broadly and later on an eastward expansion toward Central Europe? What cultures would've been associated with this process, what's the archeological trace from the Balkans to the first BB in Iberia, and would it have preced the Bronze Age (you talked about these people being associated with the spread of the Chalcolithic technology)? I'm not sure I'm following you. Early Bronze Age Vucedol samples in the western Balkans, near Italy and Austria, were found to be R1b and were probably an extension of autosomal Steppe BA expansion. I see no reason to believe that it is more likely that R1b-L51, closely related to Z2103 and split from it a mere 500-1000 years earlier, would be found in and spread from Iberia more than somewhere in the Balkans, where the Yamnaya-like steppe ancestry entered very, very soon (initial waves beginning as early as the Late Neolithic).

 

[Olympus Mons]

Well... the one obvious objection remains... the language. As said above, centum to satem is a one way street. How can one explain the fact that an R1b population in west (central?) Europe might have bequeathed its language to steppe people, from there to R1a populations, which in turn would have carried it all the way to India ?

....

hrvclv....
If one is to believe now krause, Reich, and most relevant "et al" that PIE is 4900bc south caucasus does it not explain everything? If arriving (loaded CHG) to steppe via mountains spoke PIE and arriving population to Balkans via north Anatolia spoke PIE and both (Cousins) meet up via north caucasus 1000 years (or less or more) later? ...
And if pockets of remaining people speaking PIE in south caucasus (Darmaware?, others?) as we see even in north Iran does it not explain a lot?

Which part of what I said does not add up?

 

[Ygorcs]

I know I keep harping on this, but... have you guys read this ?

https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/on...p-r1b-l51-in-late-repin-early-yamna-settlers/

The article proposes that L51 in Hungary came early from a Late Repin / early- or pre-Yamna culture still light in CHG. They would have made room for themselves in the Hungarian plain, and would have been displaced by the arrival en masse of later Yamna men. They would then have moved north and west into Bell Beaker territory, along routes some of them had perhaps already explored (?).

I find the arguments very convincing.

Into BB territory? As late as that? So what would've been the main Y-DNA haplogroups of these earlier Bell Beakers before the arrival of L51? All the BB outside Iberia have been found to have significant steppe ancestry and R1b as their main haplogroup. Would that have happened only after the arrival of L51, without any big change in the BB culture? I don't think I understood this point.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Do you think L51 came originally from the Balkans? And where did it spread? First from the Balkans to Iberia or Southwestern Europe more broadly and later on an eastward expansion toward Central Europe? What cultures would've been associated with this process, what's the archeological trace from the Balkans to the first BB in Iberia, and would it have preced the Bronze Age (you talked about these people being associated with the spread of the Chalcolithic technology)? I'm not sure I'm following you. Early Bronze Age Vucedol samples in the western Balkans, near Italy and Austria, were found to be R1b and were probably an extension of autosomal Steppe BA expansion. I see no reason to believe that it is more likely that R1b-L51, closely related to Z2103 and split from it a mere 500-1000 years earlier, would be found in and spread from Iberia more than somewhere in the Balkans, where the Yamnaya-like steppe ancestry entered very, very soon (initial waves beginning as early as the Late Neolithic).

I think pre-L51 originated somewhere in the East Med region - I cannot give much more precision than that. At the moment, I'd suspect a West Asian origin, rather than a Balkan origin. I think L51 was part of the maritime spread of copper metallurgy to Southern Iberia. I think a culture associated with this would be the Los Millares culture (one of the first and most important Chalcolithic cultures in Western Europe). The historical trace, besides that of the obvious spread of copper metallurgy, can be seen in a variety of ways (ancient L51 lineages in West Med islands, tholos tombs that indicate East Med origins etc. - nobody doubts Los Millares had Eastern influences, and I see those influences as being from L51). I think this would have preceded the Bronze Age (which was spread by the Argaric culture - no idea about this, potentially J2).

I don't believe L51 and Z2103 split on the Steppe - I think Steppe Z2103 is ultimately of West Asian origin. When I say West Asian, I mean Northern West Asian (Anatolia, Armenia, Northern Syria/Iraq etc.) and definitely not anything like Arabia. And it isn't so far fetched to see the related clades of L51 and Z2103 in Iberia and the Steppe if you were to consider a West Asian origin.

Note: I don't necessarily believe that L51 formed in West Asia - just that the split that would lead to L51 and Z2103 occurred in West Asia. The L51 mutation probably would have occurred in the Western Med. region (Spain, France, West Med islands).

 

[hrvclv]

Into BB territory? As late as that? So what would've been the main Y-DNA haplogroups of these earlier Bell Beakers before the arrival of L51? All the BB outside Iberia have been found to have significant steppe ancestry and R1b as their main haplogroup. Would that have happened only after the arrival of L51, without any big change in the BB culture? I don't think I understood this point.

They may have arrived earlier. I don't know. I have to rely on the samples available on the Umap and Homeland maps. (Too lazy to go through the whole litterature, I am afraid !). Those samples are all contemporaneous with BB.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Well... the one obvious objection remains.

In Cucuteni, you find loads of G2a, I2a, even J. Where are the R ?

... And if one looks to the specific period for south balkans, bellow is the Mathieson et al 2017 samples. Remember, second half 5th millennium...
Unfortunally not a big resolution in terms of subclades... but R for sure. This is, amongst others, the people I say were arriving PIE to balkans at same time PIE was arriving to Steppe....



[TABLE="width: 1295"]
[TR]
[TD]Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_Late_Chalcolithic1[/TD]
[TD]I2181[/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD]HV15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6453[/TD]
[TD]4550-4455 calBCE[/TD]
[TD]Smyadovo[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Balkans_Chalcolithic[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_Late_Chalcolithic[/TD]
[TD]I2430[/TD]
[TD]R1b1a[/TD]
[TD]K1a26[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6448[/TD]
[TD]4545-4450 calBCE[/TD]
[TD]Smyadovo[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Balkans_Chalcolithic[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_Late_Chalcolithic[/TD]
[TD]I2423[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]H[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6388[/TD]
[TD]4520-4356 calBCE[/TD]
[TD]Smyadovo[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Balkans_Chalcolithic[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria_Late_Chalcolithic[/TD]
[TD]I2424[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]U4a[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6304[/TD]
[TD]4448-4260 calBCE[/TD]
[TD]Smyadovo[/TD]
[TD]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[halfalp]

I think L51 originated somewhere in the East Med region - I cannot give much more precision than that. At the moment, I'd suspect a West Asian origin, rather than a Balkan origin. I think L51 was part of the maritime spread of copper metallurgy to Southern Iberia. I think a culture associated with this would be the Los Millares culture (one of the first and most important Chalcolithic cultures in Western Europe). The historical trace, besides that of the obvious spread of copper metallurgy, can be seen in a variety of ways (ancient L51 lineages in West Med islands, tholos tombs that indicate East Med origins etc. - nobody doubts Los Millares had Eastern influences, and I see those influences as being from L51). I think this would have preceded the Bronze Age (which was spread by the Argaric culture - no idea about this, potentially J2).

I don't believe L51 and Z2103 split on the Steppe - I think Steppe Z2103 is ultimately of West Asian origin. When I say West Asian, I mean Northern West Asian (Anatolia, Armenia, Northern Syria/Iraq etc.) and definitely not anything like Arabia. And it isn't so far fetched to see the related clades of L51 and Z2103 in Iberia and the Steppe if you were to consider a West Asian origin.

Yes ok, R1b and R1a came from Middle-East those old theories that are only link with the ethnic origin of the people who believe it. STEPPE doesn't have Basal Eurasian. Balkans_HG doesn't Basal Eurasian. Villabruna doesn't have Basal Eurasian. The R1b basal forms that you know from middle-east, all came ultimately from the Balkans. The first people with Basal Eurasian to came into Europe were EEF / ANF population. Do you dont have an intuition now? Do you are still skeptical? Oh yeah CHG, intersting enough.

 

[Ygorcs]

They may have arrived earlier. I don't know. I have to rely on the samples available on the Umap and Homeland maps. (Too lazy to go through the whole litterature, I am afraid !). Those samples are all contemporaneous with BB.

Oh I see. IMO Central European BB should probably be just the result of these mostly L51 males (and their women, but not nearly as many) mixing with mainly EEF and with the Yamnaya-like (with extra EEF) CWC populations of Central/Central-Western Europe, and eventually receiving strong influence (maybe also genetic, but mostly cultural) from the mainly EEF Bell Beaker pioneers of Iberia.