All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[hrvclv]

hrvclv....
If one is to believe now krause, Reich, and most relevant "et al" that PIE is 4900bc south caucasus does it not explain everything? If arriving (loaded CHG) to steppe via mountains spoke PIE and arriving population to Balkans via north Anatolia spoke PIE and both (Cousins) meet up via north caucasus 1000 years (or less or more) later? ...
And if pockets of remaining people speaking PIE in south caucasus (Darmaware?, others?) as we see even in north Iran does it not explain a lot?

Which part of what I said does not add up?

I don't exclude a possible "Kurdish route" for some R1b to the steppe. We all have the Hajji Firuz sample in mind.

However, you also find 4 R1b samples in Mariupol in 5500 - 4800 BC, an R1 in Narva (same dates), an R1b1a in Samara in 5600 BC... all of them on the steppe before 4900 BC (plus expansion time).

If PIE was a CHG language taken to the steppe across the Caucasus, and west across Anatolia (a hypothesis that makes sense), then how come the cultures dominated by haplogroup J, like the Minoans, are known to have spoken non-IE languages ?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Yes ok, R1b and R1a came from Middle-East those old theories that are only link with the ethnic origin of the people who believe it. STEPPE doesn't have Basal Eurasian. Balkans_HG doesn't Basal Eurasian. Villabruna doesn't have Basal Eurasian. The R1b basal forms that you know from middle-east, all came ultimately from the Balkans. The first people with Basal Eurasian to came into Europe were EEF / ANF population. Do you dont have an intuition now? Do you are still skeptical? Oh yeah CHG, intersting enough.

Jesus - where do I say most of that? And I thought I could sound stupid online sometimes...

 

[hrvclv]

Oh I see. IMO Central European BB should probably be just the result of these mostly L51 males (and their women, but not nearly as many) mixing with mainly EEF and with the Yamnaya-like (with extra EEF) CWC populations of Central/Central-Western Europe, and eventually receiving strong influence (maybe also genetic, but mostly cultural) from the mainly EEF Bell Beaker pioneers of Iberia.

Yes. That's exactly the hypothesis I have been defending in my posts upthread.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I don't exclude a possible "Kurdish route" for some R1b to the steppe. We all have the Hajji Firuz sample in mind.

However, you also find 4 R1b samples in Mariupol in 5500 - 4800 BC, an R1 in Narva (same dates), an R1b1a in Samara in 5600 BC... all of them on the steppe before 4900 BC (plus expansion time).

If PIE was a CHG language taken to the steppe across the Caucasus, and west across Anatolia (a hypothesis that makes sense), then how come the cultures dominated by haplogroup J, like the Minoans, are known to have spoken non-IE languages ?

Because Shulaveri-Shomu

But just on your mention of Hajji Firuz (and I don't really trust that sample btw...) - do you really think all Z2103 in the Middle East was spread by Indo-Europeans? I mean, there's a damn lot of it to have been spread into a hugely densely populated Middle East which was never heavily IE as a whole.

There are apparently two main branches of Z2103 (according to Eupedia) - one that exists from Eastern Europe to India (clearly of Steppe origin), and another limited to West Asia (not of Steppe origin). Surely that is more consistent with a Middle Eastern origin of Z2103 that later moved up to the Steppes more than any other hypothesis, right?

 

[halfalp]

Jesus - where do I say most of that? And I thought I could sound stupid online sometimes...

You do sound stupid effectively. If R1b-L51 and R1b-Z2103 were from the Middle-East, we would see Basal Eurasian in their population.

 

[hrvclv]

... And if one looks to the specific period for south balkans, bellow is the Mathieson et al 2017 samples. Remember, second half 5th millennium...
Unfortunally not a big resolution in terms of subclades... but R for sure. This is, amongst others, the people I say were arriving PIE to balkans at same time PIE was arriving to Steppe....

Yes. But you also have one R*, one R1, one R1b1a near Belgrade in 7000 BC. Those mesolithic people, isolated in an ocean of G2a, I2a, and J1, can hardly be supposed to have much to do with the coherent movements (of genes and language) from the Pontic Steppe that can be described at later dates. They were most probably wandering HG tribes or outlier R1b who had come along with the "farmers".

 

[Ygorcs]

I think pre-L51 originated somewhere in the East Med region - I cannot give much more precision than that. At the moment, I'd suspect a West Asian origin, rather than a Balkan origin. I think L51 was part of the maritime spread of copper metallurgy to Southern Iberia. I think a culture associated with this would be the Los Millares culture (one of the first and most important Chalcolithic cultures in Western Europe). The historical trace, besides that of the obvious spread of copper metallurgy, can be seen in a variety of ways (ancient L51 lineages in West Med islands, tholos tombs that indicate East Med origins etc. - nobody doubts Los Millares had Eastern influences, and I see those influences as being from L51). I think this would have preceded the Bronze Age (which was spread by the Argaric culture - no idea about this, potentially J2).

I don't believe L51 and Z2103 split on the Steppe - I think Steppe Z2103 is ultimately of West Asian origin. When I say West Asian, I mean Northern West Asian (Anatolia, Armenia, Northern Syria/Iraq etc.) and definitely not anything like Arabia. And it isn't so far fetched to see the related clades of L51 and Z2103 in Iberia and the Steppe if you were to consider a West Asian origin.

Note: I don't necessarily believe that L51 formed in West Asia - just that the split that would lead to L51 and Z2103 occurred in West Asia. The L51 mutation probably would have occurred in the Western Med. region (Spain, France, West Med islands).

I see. So, what would be the autosomal mark of these pre-L51 & Z2103 R1b people from West Asia? What admixture did they contribute to spread and is supposed to have expanded to both Chalcolithic Iberia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian Steppe, as well as its original West Asian homeland? CHG? EHG is not a possibility considering it's not found in any such early people from Iberia or from West Asia. If R1b-L23 was originally linked to CHG, can we see a significant increase in CHG (but without corresponding increase of EHG, since L51 supposedly did not arrive in Western Europe from the steppes, nor even the Balkans) in Chalcolithic Iberia and early Bronze Age Western Europe?

 

[halfalp]

Oh yeah another Shulaveri-Shomu fan boy, coincidence or reptilian conspiracy? You talking about R1b-Z2103 coming from South Caucasus is reminescent of all people that said in the past and even today that R1a-Z93 came from India.

 

[halfalp]

So many people have been misslead by Underhill and Haak over the years. Or maybe all samples that we have from prehistoric Iran, Armenia and North Caucasus with 0 R1a and the most obscure R1b ever, were just not the good proxy, they hide somewhere where we cannot found them, those snakes.

 

[halfalp]

Yes. But you also have one R*, one R1, one R1b1a near Belgrade in 7000 BC. Those mesolithic people, isolated in an ocean of G2a, I2a, and J1, can hardly be supposed to have much to do with the coherent movements (of genes and language) from the Pontic Steppe that can be described at later dates. They were most probably wandering HG tribes or outlier R1b who had come along with the "farmers".

We have R1* from prehistoric Balkans, Romania, Baltic and Russia, but they dont count for a lot of people, strangely.

 

[halfalp]

I see. So, what would be the autosomal mark of these pre-L51 & Z2103 R1b people from West Asia? What admixture did they contribute to spread and is supposed to have expanded to both Chalcolithic Iberia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian Steppe, as well as its original West Asian homeland? CHG? EHG is not a possibility considering it's not found in any such early people from Iberia or from West Asia. If R1b-L23 was originally linked to CHG, can we see a significant increase in CHG (but without corresponding increase of EHG, since L51 supposedly did not arrive in Western Europe from the steppes, nor even the Balkans) in Chalcolithic Iberia and early Bronze Age Western Europe?

I think what he wants to tell you is that R1b-M269 was in Middle-East, that R1b-Z2103 roam from there in the Pontic Steppe and that R1b-L51 roam into Africa and then after Iberia and reexpand from there with Bell Beaker into central europe.

 

[hrvclv]

We have R1* from prehistoric Balkans, Romania, Baltic and Russia, but they dont count for a lot of people, strangely.

So... ? What do you conclude ? (No irony - just a plain honest question)

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Oh yeah another Shulaveri-Shomu fan boy, coincidence or reptilian conspiracy? You talking about R1b-Z2103 coming from South Caucasus is reminescent of all people that said in the past and even today that R1a-Z93 came from India.

God you are a moron and I'm not bothering anymore - I was being sarcastic about Shulaveri.

 

[halfalp]

So... ? What do you conclude ? (No irony - just a plain honest question)

I conclude that R1 is related with Afontova Gora 3 and was in Eastern Europe / Western Siberia already in the Paleolithic.

 

[halfalp]

God you are a moron and I'm not bothering anymore - I was being sarcastic about Shulaveri.

It effectively sounded sarcastic.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I see. So, what would be the autosomal mark of these pre-L51 & Z2103 R1b people from West Asia? What admixture did they contribute to spread and is supposed to have expanded to both Chalcolithic Iberia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian Steppe, as well as its original West Asian homeland? CHG? EHG is not a possibility considering it's not found in any such early people from Iberia or from West Asia. If R1b-L23 was originally linked to CHG, can we see a significant increase in CHG (but without corresponding increase of EHG, since L51 supposedly did not arrive in Western Europe from the steppes, nor even the Balkans) in Chalcolithic Iberia and early Bronze Age Western Europe?

I think autosomal analysis is imprecise in identifying particular sources at particular proportions, but that being said as I've mentioned I think the Steppe-like admixture (so, EHG and CHG) would have primarily come from a Corded source. Seeing as we haven't found L51 dissociated from Steppe admixture, I can't answer that question with confidence, however I would suspect that (in "my" hypothesis) L51 had a small amount of Steppe like admixture from the get go, given there has for a long long (way way before Yamnaya, for example) time been Steppe-like admix in the Balkans, which is where I think M269 expanded out from. I would guess pre-Corded admixed L51 would be some kind of HG-farmer mix, which really isn't narrowing things down at all, but given the idea of expansion from the Balkans (crossroads between WHG and EHG) and later expansion from West Asia (crossroads between Anatolian and Iranian farmers), without more data I can't do much better.

But the fundamental questions I've posed cannot, so far as I've seen at least, be answered by the Yamnaya guys (where did L51 come from, if its modern distribution and distribution of archaic subclades are Western; if all Western IE are descended from U106 and U152 only (the only Central Euro L51); and other points that I've mentioned throughout this really long and hard to keep track of thread)

 

[hrvclv]

I conclude that R1 is related with Afontova Gora 3 and was in Eastern Europe / Western Siberia already in the Paleolithic.

Sure... but you could have quoted Ust'-Ishim just the same. It hardly helps to establish what happened in the last 45,000 years. Disappointed. I thought you had a point to make.

 

[Olympus Mons]

I don't exclude a possible "Kurdish route" for some R1b to the steppe. We all have the Hajji Firuz sample in mind.

However, you also find 4 R1b samples in Mariupol in 5500 - 4800 BC, an R1 in Narva (same dates), an R1b1a in Samara in 5600 BC... all of them on the steppe before 4900 BC (plus expansion time).

If PIE was a CHG language taken to the steppe across the Caucasus, and west across Anatolia (a hypothesis that makes sense), then how come the cultures dominated by haplogroup J, like the Minoans, are known to have spoken non-IE languages ?

a. Associate PIE to CHG (or other) is a mistake. PIE success must have been because it was a very broad, everything encompassing, holistic in its entirety.... so the language of the marvelous Shulaveri : ) , because they were very diverse in their way of live. Most studying them got confused. Some were Transhumance ( like the one Z2103 in Hajji Firuz) from Armenia, some villages completely artisan, some villages completely agricultural, some as we now know Hydraulic engineers diverging rivers... and even the western Georgia ones more fisher and hunters. Yet they all shared the same cultural traits.... that made their language so complete and successful. their language explain everything.

b. to better explain your question on the minoan - not that its not 100% clear that Linear B is not IE. But Look at it this way: That Z2103 guy spoke PIE (or close to it) but the J2a there with him didn't (he was just teaching them to make wine) . When whatever came from the east Caspian or/and Iran or and Mesopotamia kick them out and made the Kura-araxes and Leyla Tepe and Uruks and Maykops...kick them both. Some might have spoke PIE and others fleeing other routes might not. Lets even say, that the J2a living near the Caspian and big lakes knew how to make nice boats to flee by the sea when needed and the R1b-L23...didnt really so went by land

Look... it will turn out a very complex picture and a very elaborate caleidoscope of nuances of how people really moved around, that at this early stages we only have a few dots ... we are making too much lines based on too little dots. It really needs to be somewhat wrong, no matter what one says.

 

[Olympus Mons]

God you are a moron and I'm not bothering anymore - I was being sarcastic about Shulaveri.

lol.He really doesn't get it.

 

[halfalp]

Sure... but you could have quoted Ust'-Ishim just the same. It hardly helps to establish what happened in the last 45,000 years. Disappointed. I thought you had a point to make.

Ust-Ishim and Afontova Gora have nothing to do.