Sigynes lived close to Danube, to the north from Enetians, they had Horses, and they wear Median(Iranic) clotheswho are the Sigynes? what is their origin?
http://books.google.gr/books?id=ZuU...r_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Sigynes herodotus&f=false
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Sigynes lived close to Danube, to the north from Enetians, they had Horses, and they wear Median(Iranic) clotheswho are the Sigynes? what is their origin?
Sigynes lived close to Danube, to the north from Enetians, they had Horses, and they wear Median(Iranic) clothes
http://books.google.gr/books?id=ZuU...r_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Sigynes herodotus&f=false
Yeah, you're right. I made a mistake. Thanks for correcting me. Somehow I thought that Sauromatians were older than the Cimmerians. But it's actually vice versa! Never came into my mind that the Cimmerians lived around at the same time as Mitanni (proto-Medes). Althought Mitanni (proto-Medes) existed already second millennium BC. But if this is true, than Cimmerians were actually related or even the same as Mitanni, and therefore related to the ancient Medes, or in this case Sauromatians, the Solar Medes. So, what I'm trying to say is that the Cimmerians were basically the same as the Mitanni. But later on Cimmerians became known as the Sauromatians and the Mitanni became known simply as Medes.
BMAC was an East-Iranic culture. Indic culture NEVER replaced East-Iranic culture in South-Central Asia!Indo-Iranic split into Indic and Iranic, around 2000 BC, probably on the steppe, just east of the Urals. (Andronovo culture)
Indic moved south. They replaced the BMAC culture.
The Mitanni arrived 1500 BC and were Indic.
Cimmerians, Scyths, Saromats were Iranic. They appeared in history later.
We don't know if the y dna of the two samples, K01 and K02, are the same.
Koros 1: I2a subclade unknown
Koros 2: Y dna unknown
What we do know is that Koros 1 looks like a Mesolithic hunter/fisher-gatherer. I'm leaning toward LeBrok's speculation that he was either a hunter-gatherer trying to learn how to farm, or a local absorbed into a very early attempt at settlement by Neolithic farmers. Koros2 is a very southward plotting Neolithic farmer. He looks to me like an example of what these people were like when they first arrived.
Also, take a look at the dates:
Koros 1:5,650–5,780
Koros 2: 5,570–5,710
They're also two different sites.
The rest of the Neolithic samples are from a later time period. Enough time to have absorbed a little hunter gatherer. However, it's not as much as was absorbed apparently by the farmers in the west, because quite a few of them plot south of Otzi.
Or maybe it was just a little bit over the centuries? Otzi and the Copper Age sample from this study plot at about the same latitude don't they? Also, can anybody find Stuttgart on there? Even my bifocals aren't working that well.
Oh, and of the NE 1-7, two of them are C6, and 1 is I2a, but who knows of what variety. Four of them are missing Y dna.
The linguistic (and ethnic) affiliation of the Huns is a matter that has to my knowledge gone back and forth, mainly due to the scarcity of data. I agree that a Scytho-Sarmatian language is a very real possibility (these languages dominated a large swath of Eurasia for centuries, after all), but so is - in my opinion - Turkic. We don't even know for certain if the Xiongnu of Chinese sources are even the same as the Huns that show up a bit later in Western sources.
What is clear about the Slavs, and I agree unanimously here with LeBrok, is that their language is not one of invaders from the steppe.
But I never realized that the Cimmerians were almost as old as the Mitanni and therefore much older than the East Iranic tribes, like the East Iranic Scythians (aka Saka) in the Pontic-Caspian Steppes!BMAC was an East-Iranic culture. Indic culture NEVER replaced East-Iranic culture in South-Central Asia!
No it's a misconception that Mitanni were Indic. This is pure propaganda. Mitanni were actually proto-Iranic and were descendants of the Sumerians. Later, the Mitanni in Kurdistan became known as the Medes. Like the Sumerians they were the 'Sun' worshippers. I have still that native Iranic religion, and I'm still the 'Sun' worshipper to. We call our God, Xode Shems (Ezide Sor), translated: the Sun God. Mitanni were native to the Iranian Plateau. 1 part went to the West and became the Medes, while the other part went to the South-Central Asia and became 'East Iranic' and then invaded Northern India and mixed with the Dravidians.
It is also possible that J2a migrated into the Pontic Caspian Steppes together with the R1a* and NOT R1b* at all!
But it's also possible that J2a came into Europe with the 'Iranic' people. Because Iranic people sometimes invaded Europe. Think about the Alanians. J2a in Europe can be from the Massagetae (proto-Alanians) or even the Medes (Mitanni) or simply the Sauromatians, the Solar Medes…
I remember that somewhere on Dienekes' site there is a thread(s) which discusses the fact that a few Armenians plot pretty far away from the mass of Armenians, and there was some speculation that perhaps it was because of Russian admixture. (I just spent a half hour trying to find it, but I couldn't. If I have time later, I'll try again.) I'm just suggesting that those may be the few Armenians among whom IR plots. If you look closely at the mass of samples in the Near East you'll find that most of the Armenians plot down there somewhere around eastern Turkey, which makes sense.)
However, given the tweets from Razib Khan about the upcoming Lazaridis paper on Samarra, I don't see why the fact that IR plots near a "possibly" mixed Armenian/Russian sample is either surprising or upsetting.
#ASHG14 eastern hg from Karelia and sammara. ANE related to Eastern hg. yamnaya had near East and Caucasus
#ASHG14 ANE in Europe from eastern hg groups? (via yamnaya)
#ASHG14 yamnaya better source for intrusive group into north Europe late Neolithic bronze age
#ASHG14 corded ware 36% nonlocal ancestry. Karelian. low bound
#ASHG14 yamnaya modeled as 50/50 Armenian Karelian. corded ware 75% yamnaya
#ASHG14 yamnaya % peaks in north Europe. lower in south Europe. lowest in Sardinia
#ASHG14 yamnaya = proto-indoeuropean
Well, I could speculate that maybe the idea that Yamnaya people were half "Armenian like" is anathema on "racial" grounds to some people, in addition to falsifying years of opinions and conclusions about the nature of the "Indo-Europeans". I don't like to think that's the case, however. Maybe that's just rumor mongering too. I'm told there is now a mad scramble to analyze his data. Of course, I don't know what he'll turn out to be...I'm willing to wait for analyses to be done, and I have no personal stake in the outcome. Anyway, I'm not going to get into speculating based on fragmentary results or rumors posted by people on other sites. I had enough of that. I'll wait for the paper. All I'm saying is that the plotting of IR shouldn't be a total surprise.
I don't think we can make any judgments about the I2a or the C6 because the subclades aren't resolved enough for either the Mesolithic samples or the ones under discussion. We don't even know if all the I2a in these samples is the same one.
We don't know if the y dna of the two samples, K01 and K02, are the same.
Koros 1: I2a subclade unknown
Koros 2: Y dna unknown
What we do know is that Koros 1 looks like a Mesolithic hunter/fisher-gatherer. I'm leaning toward LeBrok's speculation that he was either a hunter-gatherer trying to learn how to farm, or a local absorbed into a very early attempt at settlement by Neolithic farmers. Koros2 is a very southward plotting Neolithic farmer. He looks to me like an example of what these people were like when they first arrived.
Also, take a look at the dates:
Koros 1:5,650–5,780
Koros 2: 5,570–5,710
They're also two different sites.
The rest of the Neolithic samples are from a later time period. Enough time to have absorbed a little hunter gatherer. However, it's not as much as was absorbed apparently by the farmers in the west, because quite a few of them plot south of Otzi. Or maybe it was just a little bit over the centuries? Otzi and the Copper Age sample from this study plot at about the same latitude don't they? Also, can anybody find Stuttgart on there? Even my bifocals aren't working that well.
Oh, and of the NE 1-7, two of them are C6, and 1 is I2a, but who knows of what variety. Four of them are missing Y dna.
I remember that somewhere on Dienekes' site there is a thread(s) which discusses the fact that a few Armenians plot pretty far away from the mass of Armenians, and there was some speculation that perhaps it was because of Russian admixture. (I just spent a half hour trying to find it, but I couldn't. If I have time later, I'll try again.) I'm just suggesting that those may be the few Armenians among whom IR plots. If you look closely at the mass of samples in the Near East you'll find that most of the Armenians plot down there somewhere around eastern Turkey, which makes sense.)
This is what it is saying: "Individual BR2, L. Bronze, Kyjatice Culture (1,110–1,270 BC) = Y-Haplogroup J2a1". At that time (around 1250 BC) even the West Iranian people were fully evolved. Same time when the Mitanni became the Medes in Kurdistan.The sample is from Bronze Age. The Indo Europeans hadn't yet evolved into different groups.
The Mitanni arrived 1500 BC and were Indic.
KO2 is a female. So no Y-DNA.
Thanks for that correction Epoch. I missed that.
This is what it is saying: "Individual BR2, L. Bronze, Kyjatice Culture (1,110–1,270 BC) = Y-Haplogroup J2a1". At that time (around 1250 BC) even the West Iranian people were fully evolved. Same time when the Mitanni became the Medes in Kurdistan.
Thanks for that correction Epoch. I missed that. I better go back and check on NE 1-4. I'm getting sloppy.
No, not the Medes, but the relatives of the Mitanni reached that part of the area (Hungary?) . Cimmerians can be older than the Medes, and if this true then the Cimmerians actually could be closely related to the Mitanni. That's why I'm saying that the Cimmerians could evolve into the Saomartians and the Mitanni simply evolved into the Medes. That also explains why there are many links between Saomartians (Solar Medes) and the Medes, simply because they share the same ancestors (Cimmerians/Mitanni)!OK but it is unlikely that the Medes had yet reached any part of this area if even Scythians weren't yet there.
No, not the Medes, but the relatives of the Mitanni reached that part of the area (Hungary?) . Cimmerians can be older than the Medes, and if this true then the Cimmerians actually could be closely related to the Mitanni. That's why I'm saying that the Cimmerians could evolve into Saomartians and the Mitanni simply evolved into the Medes. That also explains why there are many links between Saomartians (Solar Medes) and the Medes, simply because they share the same ancestors (Cimmerians/Mitanni)!
From what I learned today is that the Cimmerians are OLDER than Scythians (East Iranians) and the Medes (West Iranians). Cimmerians lived almost at the same times as Mitanni!; before the Medes, Saomartians, Scythians (Saka) etc.Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes, Cimmerians etc they all share same ancestors. The question is how far back those ancestors go. And it is hard to tell and we can only speculate.
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