Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

Riverman said:
The Illyrian core is particularly conservative, and that starts when the Illyrians, descendents from the Middle Danubian TC, split into those cremating and those sticking to inhumation. The later, the "Illyrian proper" or Illyrian core defined themselves in distinction from incoming Celts, assimilated Pannonian Illyrians and Daco-Thraians, by sticking to "the old ways".

This is also what TC in itself was about. After Unetice had a more proto-state appearance, was more socially stratified, complex and mixed, TC is like "going back to the roots" after its collapse. Note that the Unetician core controlled the mostly Bell Beaker Southern German groups, in wider networks. But this was probably a cultural and even political dominance these Bell Beaker tribes, probably, didn't really appreciate.
The same repeats with Urnfield and then with Hallstatt. In the latter case La Tene being also a revolution against the more Eastern dominance, fusing old and new elements to a new dynamic culture, which was La Tene. Tumulus culture followed a similar trajectory, after the Unetician collapse.
So some of the TC influx and attacks are like La Tene Celts, but they must not be La Tene Celts already, but just similar Bell Beaker related groups. Celts might be from a smaller, more specific nucleus of it.
There was however, as you maybe read out, this competition and dynamic between the Polish-Carpathian and Rhenish-Alpine groups. One of them was usually dominant, for a time, then the pendulum moved once more.
Corded Ware = Eastern dominance
Bell Beaker = Western dominance
Unetice = Eastern dominance
Tumulus Culture = Western dominance
Urnfield = Eastern dominance
Early Hallstatt = Eastern dominance
La Tene = Western dominance

As you can see, the pendulum went forward and backward and in this context, Illyrians are definitely closer to the Western, Daco-Thracians to the Eastern group, but both largely at the border. Just like Bosnians and Albanians were for most of their existence between the West (Catholic) and East (Orthodox) too. Its an age old borderzone.
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As I have been saying for many many years ...........the celts lived on the north side of the Danube river ...........bavaria , czech lands and a bit of SW Poland ..............north East of the celts up to the baltic sea where the West-balt people.

On the south side of the Danube river ( noricum ) lived the Illyrians.

As the celts pushed into Noricum to create Halstatt culture ............these illyrians became celtinized , slowly but surely ................celts then proceeded further south reaching as far south as modern serbia ( scordisci tribe )...........but on the adriatic sea coast they did not go ( maybe the mountain range was a preventive ) ......this left the Venetic, Histrians, Liburnians , Dalmatians as who they where originally .............although the Venetic adopted Celtic dress sense
 
@Riverman post #833
interesting
From where and when came I23995 and I26742 ?
They could check Liburnians or Sth Veneti in some way, some Italics...
 
torzio said:
As I have been saying for many many years ...........the celts lived on the north side of the Danube river ...........bavaria , czech lands and a bit of SW Poland ..............north East of the celts up to the baltic sea where the West-balt people.
On the south side of the Danube river ( noricum ) lived the Illyrians.
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We don't really know who they were, but only the core of Western Hallstatt is more likely to be safe for Celts, all the rest, but especially the Eastern Hallstatt groups, are not.

As the celts pushed into Noricum to create Halstatt culture
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Its the other way around, Thraco-Cimmerians and Basarabi pushed into Noricum, to create Eastern Hallstatt, with Western Hallstatt (of which at least some where Celtic) adopting the innovations and cultural cannon, probably even some aristocratic elites, from the East. Hallstatt, especially early Hallstatt, was going from the Carpathians to the West, not vice versa.

............these illyrians became celtinized , slowly but surely ................celts then proceeded further south reaching as far south as modern serbia ( scordisci tribe )
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At the end and after the collapse of Hallstatt, yes, but saying that Hallstatt was a West -> East spread of cultural formations and just Celtic is imho just wrong.

MOESAN said:
@Riverman post #833
interesting
From where and when came I23995 and I26742 ?
They could check Liburnians or Sth Veneti in some way, some Italics...
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We don't know for sure, but I heard something like Adriatic-Pannonian sphere being confirmed, which is where they plot. Its not just these two, its a whole cluster of J2b's all clustering around the same spot, all with IDs of 22xxx, 23xxx, 24xxx etc., so presumably from related badges from an archaeological group.

Interestingly the more Mako- and Epi-Corded-like E-V13 and R-Z2103 samples are from different series, which got ID's with 18xxx, 15xxx etc.
 
Riverman said:
We don't really know who they were, but only the core of Western Hallstatt is more likely to be safe for Celts, all the rest, but especially the Eastern Hallstatt groups, are not.
Its the other way around, Thraco-Cimmerians and Basarabi pushed into Noricum, to create Eastern Hallstatt, with Western Hallstatt (of which at least some where Celtic) adopting the innovations and cultural cannon, probably even some aristocratic elites, from the East. Hallstatt, especially early Hallstatt, was going from the Carpathians to the West, not vice versa.
At the end and after the collapse of Hallstatt, yes, but saying that Hallstatt was a West -> East spread of cultural formations and just Celtic is imho just wrong.
We don't know for sure, but I heard something like Adriatic-Pannonian sphere being confirmed, which is where they plot. Its not just these two, its a whole cluster of J2b's all clustering around the same spot, all with IDs of 22xxx, 23xxx, 24xxx etc., so presumably from related badges from an archaeological group.
Interestingly the more Mako- and Epi-Corded-like E-V13 and R-Z2103 samples are from different series, which got ID's with 18xxx, 15xxx etc.
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I am not saying western celts ( french ) created Halstatt culture ...........I am saying celts from bavaria and czech lands went into making Halstatt

noric steel

 
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@Riverman, the subclade (it's the same subclade for both, Z-58, and maybe even three of them) of I1 are not popular in modern Serbia. Do you think that I1 in Balkans is mostly or at least a good amount of it of Slavic origin?
 
ihype02 said:
@Riverman, the subclade (it's the same subclade for both, Z-58, and maybe even three of them) of I1 are not popular in modern Serbia. Do you think that I1 in Balkans is mostly or at least a good amount of it of Slavic origin?
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I don't really know, but my personal opinion is, that most of the I1 came with Germanics, however, like some E-V13 clades, some might have been brought by Slavs coming down from Slovakia-Ukraine-Romania-Hungary and not been there before. But this needs to be tested, especially in Slovaks its hard to distinguish in every single case whether its more ancient Germanic tribal or more recent German Eastern colonisation.

A Romanian subclade like this one could be both:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y21391/

Or here:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S19185/

Like with all the other haplogroups, we need more samples. I didn't check them on FTDNA, probably they already have closer matches in England or Germany, which would prove the point. Like if having a TMRCA with Germans of around 1.000 BP, you know its recent German. If its older than 1.800 BP, you never know.

This looks like a very old Germanic which might have been spread by Slavs:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3568/

But even in this case, you clearly see on FTDNA that the I-S19185 context is Germanic, with only some subclades, like in I-FT244582 being spread in Slavic speakers. This subclade is however fairly old, so could have entered Slavic groups pretty early.
 
Riverman said:
I don't really know, but my personal opinion is, that most of the I1 came with Germanics, however, like some E-V13 clades, some might have been brought by Slavs coming down from Slovakia-Ukraine-Romania-Hungary and not been there before. But this needs to be tested, especially in Slovaks its hard to distinguish in every single case whether its more ancient Germanic tribal or more recent German Eastern colonisation.

A Romanian subclade like this one could be both:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y21391/

Or here:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S19185/

Like with all the other haplogroups, we need more samples. I didn't check them on FTDNA, probably they already have closer matches in England or Germany, which would prove the point. Like if having a TMRCA with Germans of around 1.000 BP, you know its recent German. If its older than 1.800 BP, you never know.

This looks like a very old Germanic which might have been spread by Slavs:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3568/

But even in this case, you clearly see on FTDNA that the I-S19185 context is Germanic, with only some subclades, like in I-FT244582 being spread in Slavic speakers. This subclade is however fairly old, so could have entered Slavic groups pretty early.
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Why do Tuscans have less I1 than Serbians? Also wasn't the Slavic migration supposed to lower the I1 in Balkans? Italians have not changed much from the Early Middle Ages it seems and they have less I1 than Slavic Balkaners, expect for Veneto.
 
ihype02 said:
Why do Tuscans have less I1 than Serbians? Also wasn't the Slavic migration supposed to lower the I1 in Balkans? Italians have not changed much from the Early Middle Ages it seems and they have less I1 than Slavic Balkaners, expect for Veneto.
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I don't have the answer, but just as a hint, Germanics became fairly dominant in some of the mentioned areas for generations, before the Slavs came in, and some seem to have been assimilated even earlier by Romans, or later by Slavs, plus there was a significant influx in various regions from Germany, with German Medieval settlement, reaching very early as far as Southern Serbia and Bulgaria, with many settlements being rather isolated and assimilated by locals on long run, especially after the Ottoman conquest.
Different Germanic tribes carried different ratios of various haplogroups, including I1, I2, R-U106, G2 and E-V13 among others. There seem to have been some early founder effects for remaining I1 lineages in Albanians and Serbs also. Such founder effects being much more rare in the less clan based Italian peninsula.
 
I am actually surprised the Goths show E-V13, i mean like let's say they picked in Balkans, but how could they cherry-pick E-V13 that it shows among Iberian Goths and Crimean Goths and again in original Gothic land. It looks like it was a minor lineage among them.
 
Riverman said:
I don't have the answer, but just as a hint, Germanics became fairly dominant in some of the mentioned areas for generations, before the Slavs came in, and some seem to have been assimilated even earlier by Romans, or later by Slavs, plus there was a significant influx in various regions from Germany, with German Medieval settlement, reaching very early as far as Southern Serbia and Bulgaria, with many settlements being rather isolated and assimilated by locals on long run, especially after the Ottoman conquest.
Different Germanic tribes carried different ratios of various haplogroups, including I1, I2, R-U106, G2 and E-V13 among others. There seem to have been some early founder effects for remaining I1 lineages in Albanians and Serbs also. Such founder effects being much more rare in the less clan based Italian peninsula.
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I feel like Medieval Tuscany attracted more Medieval Germans than Medieval Serbia did.
Also G2 in Germanic tribes?

Btw, what haplogroups did Slavs carry in your opinion?
For me it's mostly R1a and I2a with some E-V13 and I1, captured by different tribes. But E-V13 in South Slavs is still mostly native but partly Pagan Slavic, imo.

I think that the Slavs of Bulgaria had some E-V13, while the Slavs of Croatia could have had none of it.
Either way I don't think that any South Slavic country has Slavic y-Dna only from R1a and I2a, surely there were other haplogroups.
 
Hawk said:
I am actually surprised the Goths show E-V13, i mean like let's say they picked in Balkans, but how could they cherry-pick E-V13 that it shows among Iberian Goths and Crimean Goths and again in original Gothic land. It looks like it was a minor lineage among them.
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None of E-V13 samples in this paper samples show signal of Germanic admixture, they picked it from the Balkans and moved to Italy and Spain.
 
ihype02 said:
None of E-V13 samples in this paper samples shows signal of Germanic admixture, they picked it from the Balkans and moved to Italy and Spain.
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I am aware of that scenario, autosomal is not such a stable determiner for loners, i have heard some Goths showed E-V13 from Eastern German sites as well, then this Crimean Goth sample, initially i thought it could be from Greeks/Thracians in Crimea but the site is clearly Gothic related. I am not saying it was major, but potentially minor Y-DNA among them.
 
Hawk said:
I am actually surprised the Goths show E-V13, i mean like let's say they picked in Balkans, but how could they cherry-pick E-V13 that it shows among Iberian Goths and Crimean Goths and again in original Gothic land. It looks like it was a minor lineage among them.
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The most likely scenario is, imho, they picked it up from Lusatian-G?va related groups along the way, already in the Polish-Carpathian zone, and once more in the Carpatho-Pannonian zone. Which was more or if it was just one, who knows. Also, they could have picked up E-V13 in Northern Italia, but there it was concentrated at that time, probably, among Ligurians. I know many Romans joined the Goths, but not particularly from Liguria.
One interesting question is whether they formed seperate units, like the Sarmatian groups which travelled with the Germanics. Probably there were whole groups of Lusatian and/or Daco-Thracian elements in some Gothic units.
 
Riverman said:
The most likely scenario is, imho, they picked it up from Lusatian-G�va related groups along the way, already in the Polish-Carpathian zone, and once more in the Carpatho-Pannonian zone. Which was more or if it was just one, who knows. Also, they could have picked up E-V13 in Northern Italia, but there it was concentrated at that time, probably, among Ligurians. I know many Romans joined the Goths, but not particularly from Liguria.
One interesting question is whether they formed seperate units, like the Sarmatian groups which travelled with the Germanics. Probably there were whole groups of Lusatian and/or Daco-Thracian elements in some Gothic units.
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Yeah, all of those are possible scenarios, i am not ruling out any of it, including Balkans, but just wondering.
 
Hawk said:
Yeah, all of those are possible scenarios, i am not ruling out any of it, including Balkans, but just wondering.
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Its too much especially in Visigoths which moved to Iberia, to be neglected. But the Germanic tribals seem to have picked up local allies and subordinates on various occasions, in various places. So its even possible its not always the same. Its exactly for cases like that, that to know the subclades/terminal SNP would be extremely helpful.
 
Riverman said:
That's quite far up in the North. Could be an E-L618 survivor related to earlier Neolithics.
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None of Iberomaurusians was E-L618 positive, they were dead-end E-M78 carriers. This sample yes, could be Early Cardium Neolithic survivor, but could also be E-V13 positive as well and new-joiner. Let's see, Max Planck Institute will probably soon publish the paper.
 
kingjohn said:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...n-early-bronze-age-Iberia?p=634759#post634759




this is anlaysis by richard rocca from anthrogenica
i am not sure these are all the samples
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If he is E-V13 negative then he is likely Cardial/Impressed-Ware survivor.

We have solid evidence both archeological and genetic to link E-L618 with the Cardial/Impressed-Ware farmers, PPNB/Natufian farmers mixed within larger Anatolian/G2A influencing them in South-East Turkey.

Early-Neolithic-Cardial-culture-A-Main-cultural-horizons-associated-with-the-earliest.png
 
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