Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

[halfalp]

Your post is too confusing and mix too many mistakes. See ....
https://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo.pt/from-the-ubaid-and-kura-araxes-8426


Secondly,
Understand the *****ed pearl culture (it hides P.r.ick.ed lol ) , prior to arrival of Uruks/Kura-araxes to make Maykop and kick them out is understand the arrival of the Shulaveri to Kuban river running away from the incoming people . But its rare to have a linkage making the connection. this reference is priceless.

see.
https://books.google.pt/books?id=WE...*****ed pearls culture north caucasus&f=false

My post is the most easiest thing to understand, Paleolithic Caucasus is J2 and J1. Chalcolithic Caucasus both North and South are J2a and J1, it's then a logical continuation. And you, you believe that coming from the flow of the Euphrates, R1b have replaced J2 and J1 in the neolithic until those same retake the Caucasus in the Chalcolithic. And i already read your blog, a part that you seem to change ideas every two months, there is nothing to take of it.

 

[Olympus Mons]

My post is the most easiest thing to understand, Paleolithic Caucasus is J2 and J1. Chalcolithic Caucasus both North and South are J2a and J1, it's then a logical continuation. And you, you believe that coming from the flow of the Euphrates, R1b have replaced J2 and J1 in the neolithic until those same retake the Caucasus in the Chalcolithic. And i already read your blog, a part that you seem to change ideas every two months, there is nothing to take of it.

Halfalp... I don't know if you are just very young or is something else. But you seem to have grave problems with more elaborate concepts and models. You seem to want to play Warlord and that is not going to take you very far.
a. J1 and J2 means nothing! those are so old in the region that nobody even knows were to start...
b. By 6000bc, in the region, J was everywhere and was local.
c. Shulaveri-Shomu, as per cattle and Sheep adna, was not iranian. Was coming from west.
d. Most unadmix form of CHG must have been in the slopes of Western Georgia, isolated by the mountains from eastern Georgia and azerbaijan plains...!
e. Right now we even Maykop makeshift know! and it was the NEW admix of south caucasus admix - the only ones left and not publishd is Shulaveri and there is a reason for it.

So, this is not a PS game of Y haplogroups. you need to step up your game or it becomes impossible for more patience people than me, to get anywhere with you.
If you think I change my mind every month, after being repeating the same mantra for years, means you haven't read anything.

Don't bother to engage me any further. Have no patience.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Are the L51 BBs really from Yamnaya? Here’s the thing - surely the Yamnaya expansion into the Balkans was R1b-Z2103, and if that is the case where could the BBs have gotten their L51? Also, the Middle Eastern prevalence of Z2103 relative to Z93/Z94 really doesn't fit in with Z2103 coming predominantly from the Indo-Iranians, which would mean that Z2103 is pre-proto-Indo-European.

So, how about this:

What if L23 originated in the Balkans (where L23* is noticeably highest), and that the Copper Age originated with migrations of an L23 elite (matching where the oldest locations of metallurgy are - and yes I associate metallurgists as the elite because that's what they were!), with L51 forming from a migration into South-Western Europe (say, Iberia, somehow through the Mediterranean along the Megalithic route) and Z2103 forming with a migration into Anatolia? Z2103 would then go from Anatolia to the Caucasus - perhaps as the bird flies (through the highlands), or down Mesopotamia to the Gulf before going up along the Zagros (or perhaps both), eventually forming Leyla Tepe, then Maykop, and then spilling over into the Steppe, leading to the Steppe invasions of the Balkans massively increasing Z2103 there. It's worth noting too, that the reason concentrations of R1b are far higher in places like ancient Yamnaya and Western Europe today, is that the lower population densities historically supported by those regions meant elites having more offspring would change the Y DNA landscape to a far greater degree than among a very large farmer population - therefore, we should expect the distribution of R1b to be masked in areas with historically high populations, which could put us off the scent. Anyway - this migrational theory not only tracks the spread of metallurgy, but also the spread of the Swastika, which itself basically tracks perfectly with the initial spread of metallurgy. It's worth noting that given the Swastika's presence in R1b-V88- dominated Africa, this symbol can't directly be associated with the proto-Indo-Europeans themselves (the oldest Swastika is from the Paleolithic Ukraine, for example). The Steppe also had copper metallurgy at a very early state, but I'm not convinced yet whether they would have gotten this from pre-Maykop interactions with Caucasian cultures or the Balkans.

As for L51, what if it formed somewhere in SW Europe from these L23 guys from the Balkans, who were the metallurgical elite of a bunch of Megalithic I2s? We know the Bell Beakers would have been small in number, being a metallurgical elite, so it's not a surprise we haven't found them yet in Spain. This was Coon's reasoning behind the lack of BB Dinaroid types in Bell-Beaker Iberia too. In mountainous regions like the Pyrenees, where this type would have been protected, we see the Dinaroid features more strongly - such as with the Basques. We also see that Megalithic-like admixture peaks here, for the same reason. Why the Basque language wasn't replaced isn't clear, as the level of R1b-P312 clearly shows they must have been a small group when dominated by Indo-Europeans, but I've heard theories that most of the original non-Indo-European Iberian languages were preserved until the Roman era. If I had to guess though, the almost complete lack of Indo-European-like mtDNA suggests that a bunch of P312 men made their way up their and simply assimilated into the culture as the elite, bringing with them Bronze Age technology. It's worth noting the clear links between the Baskid and North Atlantid phenotypes, and considering how a fusion of a Baskid and Corded phenotype would create something akin to the North Atlantid phenotype - and I think this accurately matches the idea of R1b-L51 moving from SW Europe to dominate the CWC, perhaps learning Bronze Age metallurgy from contact with the Balkan branch of Yamnaya (we know the Beaker and Balkan Yamnaya folk met at some point from the distribution of Beaker pottery). Yes, phenotypes aren't as accurate as DNA, but as I've said a bunch of times there are very clear distribution patterns, and these patterns have to be more than random. On another note, I also don't think these guys would have had Steppe admixture, as R1b does not seem to be so intimately related to the Steppe as something like R1a (there was that Z2103 individual from Chalcolithic Iran that was mostly a blend between Anatolian and Iranian farmers).

I can't see a better alternative to describe how the split between Z2103 and L51 took place, as a splint in Yamnaya or during its expansion into the Balkans seems unlikely.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Oh one other thing I forgot to say - this idea is dependent on the L51 languages being spread by the CWC, and that the L51 (or L11) men would have been minority rulers (as we know the BB folk tended to be) and just adopted the language of the locals - the product being the Unetice culture. U106 would have split from P312, moving West along the N European plain to further mix with remaining CWC folk (who had themselves assimilated I1 - this explains why the I1 in the Netherlands, for example, isn't descended from that of Scandinavia. It also explains why a region like the Netherlands has a lot of blonde hair for a mostly R1b area - much more than, say, Wales.) P312 would have split into L21, DF27 and U152 somewhere in West Central Europe (between France and Germany), with each haplogroup mainly simply moving into their regions of high concentrations today.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

What do people think about this? Not a new idea but I think it makes a lot of sense!

If you disagree, where do you think Z2103 and L51 split? If it was Yamnaya, L51 clearly didn't follow the same path as Z2103 through the Balkans because of its rarity there, so the only other Steppe-origin alternative is going West along the Northern European plain - but this was the path of the CWC, and there doesn't seem to be much evidence of the Unetice culture suddenly springing up from a source in the late Steppe. Also, where is all the Steppe L51?

If you say that L23 split into L51 and Z2103 during the Yamnaya expansion into the Balkans, which is really the only other alternative if you don't accept the theory I just outlined, how can you explain the Z2103 in Yamnaya and much earlier in the Middle East?

I'm going to go all in here - L51 HAD to have originated in the Beaker culture! Meaning, essentially, L23 HAD to have originated either in the Balkans or in Anatolia - but the idea of the Balkans makes more sense in my opinion.

 

[Silesian]

Are the L51 BBs really from Yamnaya? Here’s the thing - surely the Yamnaya expansion into the Balkans was R1b-Z2103, and if that is the case where could the BBs have gotten their L51? Also, the Middle Eastern prevalence of Z2103 relative to Z93/Z94 really doesn't fit in with Z2103 coming predominantly from the Indo-Iranians, which would mean that Z2103 is pre-proto-Indo-European.

So, how about this:

What if L23 originated in the Balkans (where L23* is noticeably highest), and that the Copper Age originated with migrations of an L23 elite (matching where the oldest locations of metallurgy are - and yes I associate metallurgists as the elite because that's what they were!), with L51 forming from a migration into South-Western Europe (say, Iberia, somehow through the Mediterranean along the Megalithic route) and Z2103 forming with a migration into Anatolia? Z2103 would then go from Anatolia to the Caucasus - perhaps as the bird flies (through the highlands), or down Mesopotamia to the Gulf before going up along the Zagros (or perhaps both), eventually forming Leyla Tepe, then Maykop, and then spilling over into the Steppe, leading to the Steppe invasions of the Balkans massively increasing Z2103 there. It's worth noting too, that the reason concentrations of R1b are far higher in places like ancient Yamnaya and Western Europe today, is that the lower population densities historically supported by those regions meant elites having more offspring would change the Y DNA landscape to a far greater degree than among a very large farmer population - therefore, we should expect the distribution of R1b to be masked in areas with historically high populations, which could put us off the scent. Anyway - this migrational theory not only tracks the spread of metallurgy, but also the spread of the Swastika, which itself basically tracks perfectly with the initial spread of metallurgy. It's worth noting that given the Swastika's presence in R1b-V88- dominated Africa, this symbol can't directly be associated with the proto-Indo-Europeans themselves (the oldest Swastika is from the Paleolithic Ukraine, for example). The Steppe also had copper metallurgy at a very early state, but I'm not convinced yet whether they would have gotten this from pre-Maykop interactions with Caucasian cultures or the Balkans.

As for L51, what if it formed somewhere in SW Europe from these L23 guys from the Balkans, who were the metallurgical elite of a bunch of Megalithic I2s? We know the Bell Beakers would have been small in number, being a metallurgical elite, so it's not a surprise we haven't found them yet in Spain. This was Coon's reasoning behind the lack of BB Dinaroid types in Bell-Beaker Iberia too. In mountainous regions like the Pyrenees, where this type would have been protected, we see the Dinaroid features more strongly - such as with the Basques. We also see that Megalithic-like admixture peaks here, for the same reason. Why the Basque language wasn't replaced isn't clear, as the level of R1b-P312 clearly shows they must have been a small group when dominated by Indo-Europeans, but I've heard theories that most of the original non-Indo-European Iberian languages were preserved until the Roman era. If I had to guess though, the almost complete lack of Indo-European-like mtDNA suggests that a bunch of P312 men made their way up their and simply assimilated into the culture as the elite, bringing with them Bronze Age technology. It's worth noting the clear links between the Baskid and North Atlantid phenotypes, and considering how a fusion of a Baskid and Corded phenotype would create something akin to the North Atlantid phenotype - and I think this accurately matches the idea of R1b-L51 moving from SW Europe to dominate the CWC, perhaps learning Bronze Age metallurgy from contact with the Balkan branch of Yamnaya (we know the Beaker and Balkan Yamnaya folk met at some point from the distribution of Beaker pottery). Yes, phenotypes aren't as accurate as DNA, but as I've said a bunch of times there are very clear distribution patterns, and these patterns have to be more than random. On another note, I also don't think these guys would have had Steppe admixture, as R1b does not seem to be so intimately related to the Steppe as something like R1a (there was that Z2103 individual from Chalcolithic Iran that was mostly a blend between Anatolian and Iranian farmers).

I can't see a better alternative to describe how the split between Z2103 and L51 took place, as a splint in Yamnaya or during its expansion into the Balkans seems unlikely.

I have to do some light construction work around the yard today.Lets reason this out from a logical point using our knowledge of tools/weapons and or building materials.
1)First we have to figure out the Hajji Firuzz R1b-Z2103 sample; and how it fits into the puzzle. As for metallurgy specific- copper>derivative bronze.
Where is some of the oldest copper & [bronze and or arsenic bronze]tools and or weapons found ?
2)What are the different properties of copper versus bronze?

 

[Johane Derite]

I have to do some light construction work around the yard today.Lets reason this out from a logical point using our knowledge of materials.
1)First we have to figure out the Hajji Firuzz R1b-Z2103 sample; and how it fits into the puzzle. As for metallurgy specific- copper>derivative bronze.
Where is some of the oldest copper & [bronze and or arsenic bronze]tools and or weapons found ?
2)What are the different properties of copper versus bronze?

"[FONT=&quot]The oldest securely dated tin bronze artefact are found in the heart of the [/FONT]Balkans[FONT=&quot] in [/FONT]Serbia[FONT=&quot]. A tin bronze foil from the [/FONT]Pločnik (archaeological site)[FONT=&quot] are dated to 4650 BC."

Plocnik is south serbia near border with Kosovo.



[/FONT]

This head on the left from Vinca culture was found in Barileva, 3 kilometers from my fathers village. He mentions finding clay plates in his youth when farming but was a child and didn't know better to report it lol

 

[Olympus Mons]

What do people think about this? Not a new idea but I think it makes a lot of sense!

If you disagree, where do you think Z2103 and L51 split? If it was Yamnaya, L51 clearly didn't follow the same path as Z2103 through the Balkans because of its rarity there, so the only other Steppe-origin alternative is going West along the Northern European plain - but this was the path of the CWC, and there doesn't seem to be much evidence of the Unetice culture suddenly springing up from a source in the late Steppe. Also, where is all the Steppe L51?

If you say that L23 split into L51 and Z2103 during the Yamnaya expansion into the Balkans, which is really the only other alternative if you don't accept the theory I just outlined, how can you explain the Z2103 in Yamnaya and much earlier in the Middle East?

I'm going to go all in here - L51 HAD to have originated in the Beaker culture! Meaning, essentially, L23 HAD to have originated either in the Balkans or in Anatolia - but the idea of the Balkans makes more sense in my opinion.

Hi. Not bold at all.
The reason why reich changed is view must be because they found L23 and probably Z2103 in transcaucasia. Remember, afaik the only L23 without subclades found thus far is a guy who lives in Erzurum in armenia/turkey.

So.
a. If am right about Boian (romania/bulgaria/thrace) L51 was there being a younger (4500bc) brother of Z2103. So showing up as L51 in eastern bell beaker.

Which would make me wrong on ...
b. Which will make me a moron on my batshit crazy rheory that he was born as part of Merimde beni Salama in the Delta of Egypt that vanished by 4000bc as i thought were part of the arriving population to iberia by 3500bc (BB iberia).... We will see how merimde will turn out.

 

[Silesian]

I have to do some light construction work around the yard today.Lets reason this out from a logical point using our knowledge of tools/weapons and or building materials.
1)First we have to figure out the Hajji Firuzz R1b-Z2103 sample; and how it fits into the puzzle. As for metallurgy specific- copper>derivative bronze.
Where is some of the oldest copper & [bronze and or arsenic bronze]tools and or weapons found ?
2)What are the different properties of copper versus bronze?

1)Arsenic bronze Iran and or Maykop. R1b-Z2103 is situated Hajji Friruzz is in between these two locations. Although not c14 dated, lets say this sample is 6000YBP in North western Iran.
2)Bronze is stronger {depending on what is added to the copper}than softer copper, making it better for tools[working with lumber-cutting sawing etc...]and weapons.

Next question- what type of lumber/wood[tree] was used in the construction of some of the first wagons? Say for example this one depicted in Sumerian art. The axes depicted in the picture below bronze or copper?

 

[Johane Derite]

1)Arsenic bronze Iran and or Maykop. R1b-Z2103 is situated Hajji Friruzz is in between these two locations.
2)Bronze is stronger {depending on what is added to the copper}than softer copper, making it better for tools[working with lumber-cutting sawing etc...]and weapons.

Sorry i thought you meant in europe XD

 

[Cpluskx]

Anyone knows when will we learn about the c14 result of Hajji Firuz r1b?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

1)Arsenic bronze Iran and or Maykop. R1b-Z2103 is situated Hajji Friruzz is in between these two locations. Although not c14 dated, lets say this sample is 6000YBP in North western Iran.
2)Bronze is stronger {depending on what is added to the copper}than softer copper, making it better for tools[working with lumber-cutting sawing etc...]and weapons.

Next question- what type of lumber/wood[tree] was used in the construction of some of the first wagons? Say for example this one depicted in Sumerian art. The axes depicted in the picture below bronze or copper?

Please just write it all at once ffs lol

 

[Angela]

But then no linguistic, no genetic and no archaeological evidence would need a south of the Caucasus Urheimat. Why then propose one? What problem would it solve that the steppe theory doesn't solve?

There are numerous issues linguistically in terms of the Anatolian languages, and no hypothesis totally lays them to rest. That's been apparent for years, although it was most clearly articulated by Mallory relatively recently. It is by no means a question of a satisfactory answer or hypothesis already existing about which there is a consensus, but which various people are now trying to destroy by raising new concerns.

For those who haven't read it.
https://www.proto-indo-european.ru/ie-cradle/_pdf/clouds-over-ie-homelands-nallory.pdf

"The essential argument as it is normally presented is that Anatolian lacks a considerable numberof features that would characterize Brugmanian Proto-Indo-European (aorist, perfect, subjunctive,optative, etc.; Fortsom 2004, 155) and, therefore, its links with an earlier continuum musthave been severed before Proto-Indo-European (or the rest of the Indo-European languages) developedin common. This can essentially be explained in one of two ways:1. The ancestors of the Anatolian languages migrated from the homeland of the protolanguagebefore it developed common Indo-European features. In this model, Anatolianwould have preserved an archaic structure while the ancestors of the rest of the IndoEuropeanlanguages still remained together and evolved later stages of Proto-Indo-European.2. The ancestors of the Indo-European languages migrated from the homeland of theproto-language. Here it is Proto-Indo-European that moves off to innovate while, presumably,Anatolian was left in the homeland to preserve its archaisms.Obviously we could complicate matters further by proposing a homeland from whichboth the ancestors of Anatolian and (Proto­)Indo-European migrated in different directionsbut this would hardly be likely and it would have little bearing on the following discussion."

The issues for me with Anthony's proposal that the people speaking perhaps a "pre-Anatolian" language left the steppes first and moved into Anatolia via the Balkans is that although he locates a culture he considers probable as the one bringing a "steppe" language to the Balkans, there is no archaeological trail from that culture into Anatolia at that time. The archaeological trail goes in the other direction.

If we assume that despite that they moved quickly into Anatolia, where is the EHG they would have carried.

If they stayed long enough in the Balkans to lose their EHG, why is their language still so archaic. Wouldn't they have come in contact with the wheel, with other Indo-European languages?

I could go on and on, but the point is that there are issues.

There are, of course, also issues with the "origin" being in Anatolia, and the stream leading to the Anatolian languages developing there, but at least the archaism is completely explained. The lack of EHG in this case also presents no problems, because the genetic marker we'd be tracking would be CHG, not EHG.

 

[berun]

@ToBeOrNotToBe, by now everything fits my pet idea about herders expanding from SE Turkey: Z2103 towards the north, L51 towards the west, and V88 towards the south (Green Sahara) by Mediterranean route first

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

@ToBeOrNotToBe, by now everything fits my pet idea about herders expanding from SE Turkey: Z2103 towards the north, L51 towards the west, and V88 towards the south (Green Sahara) by Mediterranean route first

Well V88 split off a long time ago, so that's irrelevant. Iron Gates was V88 though, which complicates things, but it is only logical R1b would have its ultimate homeland somewhere in Balkano-Anatolia.

Apart from that, the idea makes sense. L51 could have taken a path across the Med. to Iberia, which is the most likely, but also potentially up through the Balkans and across Europe (or skipping across the Adriatic, Tyrrhenian and Balearic seas). Even though a Mediterranean route is most likely, this idea is pretty interesting. I think it went from the Balkans to Anatolia to Iberia (M269 to L23 to L51), but Anatolia to Balkans to Iberia is possible too. Anatolia or the Balkans are, without a doubt, going to be the departure point of L23 though.

 

[Ygorcs]

this is a game changer, now with EEF WHG EHG and CHG in the play ground to who it's supposed to assign IE to Yamna uh? some people will need to crash their skulls. Additional EEF/WHG ancestry in late steppe cultures must come from Balkans, from Central Europe, no more alternatives, but such Western push is linked to the eastward expansion of BB... (by archaeological dates)

I don't know if I understood your point correctly, but... unless the very little % of EEF was sufficient to engender a huge language shift as early as in the entire Eneolithic steppe, I don't think any IE / EEF connection is plausible. The extra EEF growth, which you say is chronologically associated with the eastward expansion of BB (is it really, didn't it begin earlier?), is IMO too late to be a source of the Indo-European expansion, because by the time of the eastward expansion of BB some of IE branches are already supposed to have spread long ago not only in Europe, but also in Asia, even before 3000-3200 BC, especially in the case of Tocharians (and partially also Anatolians, for I find it simply impossible that CHG/Iranian-enriched ANF and EEF would still speak similar languages or even the same language family after some 4000 years since the immigration to Europe. The highest increase of EEF in the steppes is in the Middle-Late BA groups, too late to explain the IE expansion.

If some of those admixtures is mainly associated with the origins of PIE, then it was due to some historic process that certainly happened before 3000 BC and even, quite probably, before 4000 BC - that is the time where we should be trying to find some archaeological/genetic links with the Ciscaucasian lands, especially the steppes (in my opinion, the most likely thing is that PIE - not its ancestors, PIE proper - already appeared in a heavily mixed EHG/CHG populatioin). I think you're right when you say: the CHG admixture was done by Mesolithic people or by pionner southern herders with a strong CHG signal. I'd look especially for Early-Middle Neolithic movements from the Caucasus (that's explaining the genetic part of the formation of Indo-European populations that would later disperse and bring IE languages to other regions. I myself think it is very difficult to establish whether the language that ultimately prevailed was related mainly to EHG or CHG admixture. It's just too much of a non-empirical detail).

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I don't know if I understood your point correctly, but... unless the very little % of EEF was sufficient to engender a huge language shift as early as in the entire Eneolithic steppe, I don't think any IE / EEF connection is plausible. The extra EEF growth, which you say is chronologically associated with the eastward expansion of BB (is it really, didn't it begin earlier?), is IMO too late to be a source of the Indo-European expansion, because by the time of the eastward expansion of BB some of IE branches are already supposed to have spread long ago not only in Europe, but also in Asia, even before 3000-3200 BC, especially in the case of Tocharians (and partially also Anatolians, for I find it simply impossible that CHG/Iranian-enriched ANF and EEF would still speak similar languages or even the same language family after some 4000 years since the immigration to Europe. The highest increase of EEF in the steppes is in the Middle-Late BA groups, too late to explain the IE expansion.

If some of those admixtures is mainly associated with the origins of PIE, then it was due to some historic process that certainly happened before 3000 BC and even, quite probably, before 4000 BC - that is the time where we should be trying to find some archaeological/genetic links with the Ciscaucasian lands, especially the steppes (in my opinion, the most likely thing is that PIE - not its ancestors, PIE proper - already appeared in a heavily mixed EHG/CHG populatioin). I think you're right when you say: the CHG admixture was done by Mesolithic people or by pionner southern herders with a strong CHG signal. I'd look especially for Early-Middle Neolithic movements from the Caucasus (that's explaining the genetic part of the formation of Indo-European populations that would later disperse and bring IE languages to other regions. I myself think it is very difficult to establish whether the language that ultimately prevailed was related mainly to EHG or CHG admixture. It's just too much of a non-empirical detail).

Non-ironically you're clearly an intelligent guy - what do you think about L51's origin? Do you really think it waded through the densely populated Balkans as an elite lineage, only to leave no genetic trace? I'll remind you that ALL the Steppe R1b found in the Balkans, all the way up to Vucedol, is Z2103. If it didn't come from the Balkans, how could it have come from the Steppe - and if it didn't come from the Steppe, how could it have come from anywhere else other than the Bell Beaker culture (gaining Steppe admixture from CW women)?

Also, North Atlantid is so painfully obviously Baskid+Corded it irritates me...

 

[Ygorcs]

There are numerous issues linguistically in terms of the Anatolian languages, and no hypothesis totally lays them to rest. That's been apparent for years, although it was most clearly articulated by Mallory relatively recently. It is by no means a question of a satisfactory answer or hypothesis already existing about which there is a consensus, but which various people are now trying to destroy by raising new concerns.

For those who haven't read it.
https://www.proto-indo-european.ru/ie-cradle/_pdf/clouds-over-ie-homelands-nallory.pdf

"The essential argument as it is normally presented is that Anatolian lacks a considerable numberof features that would characterize Brugmanian Proto-Indo-European (aorist, perfect, subjunctive,optative, etc.; Fortsom 2004, 155) and, therefore, its links with an earlier continuum musthave been severed before Proto-Indo-European (or the rest of the Indo-European languages) developedin common. This can essentially be explained in one of two ways:1. The ancestors of the Anatolian languages migrated from the homeland of the protolanguagebefore it developed common Indo-European features. In this model, Anatolianwould have preserved an archaic structure while the ancestors of the rest of the IndoEuropeanlanguages still remained together and evolved later stages of Proto-Indo-European.2. The ancestors of the Indo-European languages migrated from the homeland of theproto-language. Here it is Proto-Indo-European that moves off to innovate while, presumably,Anatolian was left in the homeland to preserve its archaisms.Obviously we could complicate matters further by proposing a homeland from whichboth the ancestors of Anatolian and (Proto­)Indo-European migrated in different directionsbut this would hardly be likely and it would have little bearing on the following discussion."

The issues for me with Anthony's proposal that the people speaking perhaps a "pre-Anatolian" language left the steppes first and moved into Anatolia via the Balkans is that although he locates a culture he considers probable as the one bringing a "steppe" language to the Balkans, there is no archaeological trail from that culture into Anatolia at that time. The archaeological trail goes in the other direction.

If we assume that despite that they moved quickly into Anatolia, where is the EHG they would have carried.

If they stayed long enough in the Balkans to lose their EHG, why is their language still so archaic. Wouldn't they have come in contact with the wheel, with other Indo-European languages?

I could go on and on, but the point is that there are issues.

There are, of course, also issues with the "origin" being in Anatolia, and the stream leading to the Anatolian languages developing there, but at least the archaism is completely explained. The lack of EHG in this case also presents no problems, because the genetic marker we'd be tracking would be CHG, not EHG.

That pretty much sums up the controversy while putting aside the most deranged fringe hypotheses. lol! I think the main issue that troubles me with this "neat" explanation of a Transcaucasian Indo-Hittite PIE > Steppe PIE & Anatolian PIE is that the linguistic evidences (an early, but not that early Anatolian split) and the genetic evidences are not agreeing perfectly with each other, and as far as I can see from this study at least the post-4000 BC Caucasus could not be the source of a PIE-speaking population into the steppes.

They had ANF "proper" ancestry, they had a kind of CHG that is not the supposedly "basal lineage" of CHG present since the Eneolithic Steppe, their Y-DNA makeup was completely different (sorry but, considering virtually all historic/attested background in peoples around the world, the "female transmission" idea doesn't hold).

I also just can't accept the "native people adopted the language of the more advanced people to trade with them", because if that was really likely and usual, and people usually gave up on their native languages even in the absence of any migration, cultural absorption and/or conquest, then I think we should all just give up establishing any connections between linguistics, genetics and archaeology.

Besides, the hypothesis relying on later events, like the growth of EEF-related or even more CHG-related ancestry in the Middle-Late Bronze Age is just too late to explain the dispersal of IE branches and the degree of their linguistic divergence.

 

[Ygorcs]

@ToBeOrNotToBe, by now everything fits my pet idea about herders expanding from SE Turkey: Z2103 towards the north, L51 towards the west, and V88 towards the south (Green Sahara) by Mediterranean route first

In what period and historic context would that expansion have occurred and made its genetic impact? What autosomal admixtures do you think were most related to this R1b-Z2103/L51/V88 population and would have increased its presence significantly in the north, south and west alike (CHG, ANF?)?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

In what period and historic context would that expansion have occurred and made its genetic impact? What autosomal admixtures do you think were most related to this R1b-Z2103/L51/V88 population and would have increased its presence significantly in the north, south and west alike (CHG, ANF?)?

Ya cheeky bastard lol, what have I done to deserve a blank. Just because I believe gingers really got about (as in, they did) doesn't mean none of what I say has value.

But seriously, FOKIN CHINCHORRO MUMMIES!!! How is that not proof in and of itself...