Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

I'm sorry, I agree with Olympic Mons to the extent that this is special pleading. I've personally come to no actual conclusion yet. What I meant is that the samples we have so far are Anatolian and Iranian farmer genetically. If we get quite a few more samples, including ones from the royal Hittite tombs and that is still true, then there's an issue here. Plus, the Hittite area is not the only one where Anatolian languages were spoken, and so far there is nothing.

Do you know the exact dating estimate of the so-called Hittite samples? I think that is a really important information, especially if, as I read somewhere (that's why I ask, I want to know if those weren't just rumors), some of them were actually from the pre-Hittite Assyrian Colony period. We don't know for sure is Anatolian IEs had really settled massively in the core area of the eventual Hittite Empire much before the time they conquered it.
 
Do you know the exact dating estimate of the so-called Hittite samples? I think that is a really important information, especially if, as I read somewhere (that's why I ask, I want to know if those weren't just rumors), some of them were actually from the pre-Hittite Assyrian Colony period. We don't know for sure is Anatolian IEs had really settled massively in the core area of the eventual Hittite Empire much before the time they conquered it.

This is the information I have. I don't know if it's the latest word:
[h=3]MA2205, MA2206, MA2208, Assyrian Colony Period, 2000–1750 BCE; MA2200, MA2203, Old Hittite Period, 1750–1500 BCE[/h]
The following is about the Assyrian Colony Period. Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't sound like "colonies" in the sense of significant gene flow.
http://www.smie.co/html/cultural_history/assyrian_colonies/assyrian_colonies.shtml

These karums are small trading posts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karum_(trade_post)

I don't remember how much context was provided in the paper in terms of the burials. Was there something specifically "Assyrian" about the burials rather than "local"? A few trade goods wouldn't be enough to not make them local people, imo.

The argument seems to me to increasingly be framed by some people so that the "steppe" input into the Hittites is being made unfalsifiable.

The basic issue is rather simple in my mind. There were documented Anatolian speakers over a great deal of Anatolia. There should be some steppe showing up somewhere at the appropriate time. If not, there's no proof they came from elsewhere.
 
This is the information I have. I don't know if it's the latest word:
MA2205, MA2206, MA2208, Assyrian Colony Period, 2000–1750 BCE; MA2200, MA2203, Old Hittite Period, 1750–1500 BCE

IIRC there were two old Kingdom samples and two pre-Hittite samples: MA2200 and MA2203. The samples are low res.


The following is about the Assyrian Colony Period. Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't sound like "colonies" in the sense of significant gene flow.
http://www.smie.co/html/cultural_history/assyrian_colonies/assyrian_colonies.shtml

These karums are small trading posts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karum_(trade_post)

I don't remember how much context was provided in the paper in terms of the burials. Was there something specifically "Assyrian" about the burials rather than "local"? A few trade goods wouldn't be enough to not make them local people, imo.

The argument seems to me to increasingly be framed by some people so that the "steppe" input into the Hittites is being made unfalsifiable.

That is essentially a conspiracy theory.

The basic issue is rather simple in my mind. There were documented Anatolian speakers over a great deal of Anatolia. There should be some steppe showing up somewhere at the appropriate time. If not, there's no proof they came from elsewhere.

That would require the steppe be a secondary homeland. And that theory now is in trouble. It would require a neolithic transfer to the steppe. We see no male mediated migration there from the copper age on. Unless you want a female mediated language transfer to a patriarchal pastoral society that utterly replaced the original language these people spoke. And that is highly unlikely.

Mind you, in the latter scenario the women bringing the language that was to utterly replace the original language settled with the men.
 
IIRC there were two old Kingdom samples and two pre-Hittite samples: MA2200 and MA2203. The samples are low res.




That is essentially a conspiracy theory.



That would require the steppe be a secondary homeland. And that theory now is in trouble. It would require a neolithic transfer to the steppe. We see no male mediated migration there from the copper age on. Unless you want a female mediated language transfer to a patriarchal pastoral society that utterly replaced the original language these people spoke. And that is highly unlikely.

Mind you, in the latter scenario the women bringing the language that was to utterly replace the original language settled with the men.

It seems to me it's simple logic, which seems in short supply everywhere I turn. If "steppe" genetic ancestry is no longer necessary to "prove" migration from the steppe, as has been the case for every other group, then how on earth could you falsify this claim? You couldn't. You either use genetics to prove the steppe theory or you take a huge step backwards to endless wrangling over unprovable assertions.

Both "theories" have their issues, which the professionals seem to understand, but which internet people on both sides of the debate insist on denying.
 
Hatti and Kaska are similar? I don't think there are documents written in the Kaska language, what we know of them comes from what the Hittites, Egyptians and Assyrians tell us about them.
We don't know where the Hittites were before about 1,650 BC. Heck, I'd like to see some Luwian samples (Troy I, c.3,000 BC)...
Aren't there a few samples from South West Anatolia from the study about Minoan and Mycenaean DNA? That area would've been Lycian or Carians at the time, Lycians and Carians spoke Luwic languages in the iron age, which were either closely related or perhaps directly derived from Luwian. The samples had no steppe admixture.
 
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These are numerous papers on the Assyrian Colony Period in Anatolia.

See:
https://www.academia.edu/people/search?utf8=✓&q=Assyrian+colonies+in+Anatolia

The Assyrian tablets which provide us with all the information we have about this period are found in "merchant's quarters" outside the official precincts of the cities and the normal residential areas. So, context, burial rites etc. are extremely important.

I didn't read them all so I don't know if any of the authors opine as to how many people actually lived in these merchant areas.
 
Bronze Age Central Western-Anatolians in the PCA, they are even more eastern shifted (Levant) than Minoans Screenshot_20180602-201630.jpg

Utilizzando Tapatalk
 
Hatti and Kaska are similar? I don't think there are documents written in the Kaska language, what we know of them comes from what the Hittites, Egyptians and Assyrians tell us about them.

Aren't there a few samples from South West Anatolia from the study about Minoan and Mycenaean DNA? That area would've been Lycian or Carians at the time, Lycians and Carians spoke Luwic languages in the iron age, which were either closely related or perhaps directly derived from Luwian. The samples had no steppe admixture.

There is no proof that any of the samples taken were from "Hittites", who could have been an upper crust, or royal caste, that was never numerous compared to the underlying Hattic population. They also apparently practiced cremation, which means you can probably forget finding their DNA.

The Hittites would also have been something like 2,000 years removed from the steppes, extensively interbreeding with much more numerous EEF populations both in the Balkans and Anatolia, so it might be possible the "steppe" signal had been mostly bred out. The Sredny Stog also were probably already heavily interbred with the Tripolyes before they ever left the steppe. Migrations can also pick up what amounts to a "motley crew" along the way which is partly, or even mostly, unrelated to the initial group - see the Huns and Turks.

Iron-age Lycians or Carians could have been 3,000 years removed. Just because you speak an IE-related language doesn't mean you are IE.
 
Upper crust elite people would have high reproductive success and left their mark on average people's dna. Steppe supporters are still nitpicking and coming up with ad hoc solutions.
 
There is no proof that any of the samples taken were from "Hittites", who could have been an upper crust, or royal caste, that was never numerous compared to the underlying Hattic population. They also apparently practiced cremation, which means you can probably forget finding their DNA.

The Hittites would also have been something like 2,000 years removed from the steppes, extensively interbreeding with much more numerous EEF populations both in the Balkans and Anatolia, so it might be possible the "steppe" signal had been mostly bred out. The Sredny Stog also were probably already heavily interbred with the Tripolyes before they ever left the steppe. Migrations can also pick up what amounts to a "motley crew" along the way which is partly, or even mostly, unrelated to the initial group - see the Huns and Turks.

Iron-age Lycians or Carians could have been 3,000 years removed. Just because you speak an IE-related language doesn't mean you are IE.

By that reasoning and logic, albeit may be true, all that has been said so far about any ancient dna can be false and falsified. All samples up to date can be a far way guy or group of guys travelling or kidnapped girls or just a set of different people....you name it.

Most derived inferences done with adna have centuries or thousands of years and hundreds or thousands of miles between them.

So could....would....might...really ruins the purpose. Because at that point its possibilities and not probabilities.
 
Upper crust elite people would have high reproductive success and left their mark on average people's dna. Steppe supporters are still nitpicking and coming up with ad hoc solutions.
Exactly. And that is when the conversation looses purpose. Whats the point?
 
Upper crust elite people would have high reproductive success and left their mark on average people's dna. Steppe supporters are still nitpicking and coming up with ad hoc solutions.

Anatolia was not Europe, which was underpopulated by comparison. Anatolia was already full of non-Indo-European farmers.
 
These are numerous papers on the Assyrian Colony Period in Anatolia.

See:
https://www.academia.edu/people/search?utf8=✓&q=Assyrian+colonies+in+Anatolia

The Assyrian tablets which provide us with all the information we have about this period are found in "merchant's quarters" outside the official precincts of the cities and the normal residential areas. So, context, burial rites etc. are extremely important.

I didn't read them all so I don't know if any of the authors opine as to how many people actually lived in these merchant areas.

Thank you very much, Angela. I found this study particularly interesting: http://www.academia.edu/354138/2008...of_Sciences_Journal_of_Archaeology_11_4_25-40

Of particular interest were these passages about the social organization of the Old Assyrian colonies in Anatolia, suggestive of some kind of numerous and influential diaspora of foreign people (so there must've some substantial immigration involved, but probably creating a multiethnic urban society with many native people involved, too) that did not directly rule and control the colonies:


"This diversity within a singlecolony is very clear when we look at the textsfrom karum Kanesh/Kültepe. We know that theinhabitants of the karum were not just Assyrians,but local people of Kanesh, and merchants fromother polities such as Ebla."

"The acculturation model does not apply in thecase of the Old Assyrian trading colonies andtheir interaction with their Anatolian host poli-ties in the early second millennium BC. The Anatolian city-states of this period seem to havebeen highly selective in their appropriation of Assyrian ideologies, material culture, and orga-nizational forms. If anything, the cultural influ-ences would seem to have gone the other way,so that the homes of the Assyrian merchants were filled with items and styles of Anatolianmaterial culture. This is highly significant,because it reflects, at least in part, the lack of Assyrian political or economic dominance overthe communities in which they resided."

"The Old Assyrian colonies conform exactly to Abner Cohen’s definition of trade diasporas asspatially dispersed specialized merchant groups who are culturally distinct, organizationally cohesive, and socially independent from theirhost communities while maintaining a high levelof economic and social ties with related com-munities who share the same social identity (A.COHEN 1971, 266-7). Of the three main typesof possible relationships with the local hostcommunities, the Assyrian traders seem to mostclosely match the idea of diaspora autonomy. Inc lose parallel to the Chinese traders of southeast Asia, the Assyrians were able to negotiate economic privileges and explicit recognition of their autonomous political status because they were so financially useful to the rulers of the local Anatolian city states in which they had settled."
 
Thank you very much, Angela. I found this study particularly interesting: http://www.academia.edu/354138/2008...of_Sciences_Journal_of_Archaeology_11_4_25-40
Of particular interest were these passages about the social organization of the Old Assyrian colonies in Anatolia, suggestive of some kind of numerous and influential diaspora of foreign people (so there must've some substantial immigration involved, but probably creating a multiethnic urban society with many native people involved, too) that did not directly rule and control the colonies:
keep in mind that trade was probably controlled by the local rulers, who allowed some private initiatives to some degree
that is, at least how it was in the later MBA where the Egyptian pharoa and the rulers of Ugarit and of Cyprus, the Minoans and the Myceneans kept controll over all the trade
the trade was probably restricted to a few assigned 'free trading zones', or maybe even to the palace of the ruler
and I don't think they allowed mass migrations or peoples movements into their territories
 
The way I see it is that R1b-L584 and R1b-L277 are far too common in Anatolia to have arrived with a later group such as the Turks. There really isn't any other explanation than arriving from the steppes, and both are quite old in the Middle East and the strongest candidates for PIE at least among the R1b group. I don't see how they could have not carried "steppe" ancestry, that combination of EHG + WHG + CHG-like component and probably some Anatolian. The locals would have already been rich in Anatolian + Iran ancestry which was not a feature of the people of the PC steppes.
 
By that reasoning and logic, albeit may be true, all that has been said so far about any ancient dna can be false and falsified. All samples up to date can be a far way guy or group of guys travelling or kidnapped girls or just a set of different people....you name it.

Most derived inferences done with adna have centuries or thousands of years and hundreds or thousands of miles between them.

So could....would....might...really ruins the purpose. Because at that point its possibilities and not probabilities.

You can't claim that a handful of samples from "the Hittite area", and not all within the Hittite period, are necessarily actual Hittites, rather than Hattians, who were there before, and remained after, the Hittites arrived. Since Hattians were almost certainly much more numerous than Hittites, you could randomly throw darts at the population and not hit any Hittites. If the samples are actually Hattians, lack of a steppe signal is exactly what you should expect.

If they cremated their dead, took local wives, but did not marry their daughters outside their caste or clan, that would greatly lessen the likelihood of finding any actual "Hittite" DNA in the general population. As to the "reproductive success" (e.g., population replacement) argument that was made, there is literary/historical evidence that most Hittites, other than the king, practiced monogamy, not polygamy. See: http://www.judithstarkston.com/arti...ed-in-the-laws-of-marriage-adultery-and-rape/
 
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The way I see it is that R1b-L584 and R1b-L277 are far too common in Anatolia to have arrived with a later group such as the Turks. There really isn't any other explanation than arriving from the steppes, and both are quite old in the Middle East and the strongest candidates for PIE at least among the R1b group. I don't see how they could have not carried "steppe" ancestry, that combination of EHG + WHG + CHG-like component and probably some Anatolian. The locals would have already been rich in Anatolian + Iran ancestry which was not a feature of the people of the PC steppes.

Well, the region of Caucasian Albania, which corresponds to modern Azerbaijan mostly was described as very fertile and its inhabitants as shepherds.
This is one population that may have had certain R1b subclades. Caucasian Albanian language is thought to have been a North East Caucasian language. (Usually people associate the original NEC speakers with certain J2a and J1 suclades. The frequency of R1b is significant in some Lezgic groups. Tabasaran & Lezgic are Eastern Samur languages like Caucasian Albanian and R1b reaches almost 40% in Tabasarans)

Strabo (Geography, 11.4) says:
The Albanians are more inclined to the shepherd's life than the Iberians and closer akin to the nomadic people, except that they are not ferocious; and for this reason they are only moderately warlike. They live between the Iberians and the Caspian Sea, their country bordering on the sea towards the east and on the country of the Iberians towards the west. Of the remaining sides the northern is protected by the Caucasian Mountains (for these mountains lie above the plains, though their parts next to the sea are generally called Ceraunian), whereas the southern side is formed by Armenia, which stretches alongside it; and much of Armenia consists of plains, though much of it is mountainous, like Cambysene, where the Armenians border on both the Iberians and the Albanians.

The Cyrus [Kuras], which flows through Albania, and the other rivers by which it is supplied, contribute to the excellent qualities of the land; and yet they thrust back the sea, for the silt, being carried forward in great quantities, fills the channel, and consequently even the adjacent isles are joined to the mainland and form shoals that are uneven and difficult to avoid; and their unevenness is made worse by the backwash of the flood tides. Moreover, they say that the outlet of the river is divided into twelve mouths, of which some are choked with silt, while the others are altogether shallow and leave not even a mooring place. At any rate, they add, although the shore is washed on all sides by the sea and the rivers for a distance of more than sixty stadia, every part of it is inaccessible; and the silt extends even as far as five hundred stadia, making the shore sandy. Near by is also the mouth of the Araxes, a turbulent stream that flows down from Armenia. But the silt which this river pushes before it, thus making the channel passable for its stream, is compensated for by the Cyrus.

Now perhaps a people of this kind have no need of a sea; indeed, they do not make appropriate use of their land either, which produces, not only every kind of fruit, even the most highly cultivated kind, but also every plant, for it bears even the evergreens. It receives not even slight attention, yet“all things spring up for them without sowing and ploughing,
1according to those who have made expeditions there,2 who describe the mode of life there as "Cyclopeian." In many places, at any rate, they say, the land when sown only once produces two crops or even three, the first a crop of even fifty-fold, and that too without being ploughed between crops; and even when it is ploughed, it is not ploughed with an iron share, but with a wooden plough shaped by nature. The plain as a whole is better watered by its rivers and other waters than the Babylonian and the Egyptian plains; consequently it always keeps a grassy appearance, and therefore is also good for pasturage. In addition to this, the climate here is better than there. And the people never dig about the vines, although they prune them every fifth year;3 the new vines begin to produce fruit the second year, and when mature they yield so much that the people leave a large part of the fruit on the branches. Also the cattle in their country thrive, both the tame and the wild.

The inhabitants of this country are unusually handsome and large. And they are frank in their dealings, and not mercenary;1 for they do not in general use coined money, nor do they know any number greater than one hundred, but carry on business by means of barter, and otherwise live an easy-going life. They are also unacquainted with accurate measures and weights, and they take no forethought for war or government or farming. But still they fight both on foot and on horseback, both in light armour and in full armour,2 like the Armenians.3

The second population are the Urartians in the Iron Age and the Armenians later. It doesn't even need to have been responsible for the presence of Armenian there. Then the Armenians would have expanded (re-expanded?) west. We should take into account movements that took place much later and their role in Eastern Roman Empire.

In Iron Age R1b-Z2103 is found in a context which can be non-IE. In Teppe Hassanlu, where it is found (971-832 calBCE), there were contacts with the Assyrians and violent sacking possibly by the Urartians around 800BC. That person could have spoken a Semitic language or Urartian, at least as a result of language shift. Assyrians as far as I remember have significant amounts of R1b.

If we take into account Turks and movements from the Balkans, yes, it is possible Hittites didn't have any R1b.
 
The way I see it is that R1b-L584 and R1b-L277 are far too common in Anatolia to have arrived with a later group such as the Turks. There really isn't any other explanation than arriving from the steppes, and both are quite old in the Middle East and the strongest candidates for PIE at least among the R1b group. I don't see how they could have not carried "steppe" ancestry, that combination of EHG + WHG + CHG-like component and probably some Anatolian. The locals would have already been rich in Anatolian + Iran ancestry which was not a feature of the people of the PC steppes.

Most of the other Indo-European languages stemmed from the Yamnaya culture (Greek being a possible exception), while the Anatolian IE languages are theorized, by Mallory/Anthony, to have stemmed from the Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog cultures, which may have not carried the same "steppe signature" as the Yamnayas. The Khvalynsk culture started around 4,200 BCE, well before the Yamnayas brought the CHG admixture onto the steppes.

As to R1b having been "far too common in Anatolia to have arrived with a later group such as the Turks", you're ignoring the Phrygians who (with others) overthrew the Hittite Empire around 1,200 BCE. The Dorians who overthrew the Mycenaeans (mostly R1a) around the same time were also apparently primarily R1b.
 
^^
There's the movement of the Armenian speakers as well as the Phrigians, who do have a lot of R1b.

No one knows what ydna the Dorians carried, but it's a possibility.

There was extensive colonization of western Anatolia by the Greeks, who do have some R1b, although in low percentages, not to mention how many Muslim Balkanites moved to Anatolia.

So, there are a lot of ways this ancestry could have arrived. Who would attribute it or need to attribute it to the "Turkics"?

How could "Anatolian" ie Early Farmer ancestry not have been on the steppe? We in fact know it was there. We also know there was 40-50% CHG on the steppe, CHG which is also in and related to Iran Neo. And no, I don't believe all the "modelers" can really pull these strands apart yet.
 

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