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I didn't know those samples belonged to V1636. It's probably still not very interesting because it was very unsuccesful.
But how do we know that unless it turns up in the Mycenaean shaft graves or something?They might not be dominant nowadays but were maybe very important in the genesis of PIE.
So how this lineage that apparently wasn't that interesting is now turning to become interesting? Were is even V1636 in the phylogeny tree, isn't the brother of P297?
But how do we know that unless it turns up in the Mycenaean shaft graves or something?
Btw does anyone know what the earliest confirmed R1B-M269 sample is?
Btw, were did you see that Vonyuchka was y-dna J? ToBeOrNotToBe?
Lol, I wasn't that interested in R1b so I'd always assumed there were M269s in Khvalynsk or some other early steppe culture.I think ATP3 in Spain funnily enough - either that or Yamnaya. We definitely don't have M269 on the Steppe before Yamnaya.
EDIT: It's ATP3, though obviously Yamnayan Z2103 doesn't descend from it (but L51 on the other hand... (not ATP3 as that's too late, but perhaps when copper first arrived in Iberia))
Yeah pretty sure. Arame did a lot of tests with those. EHG is there in Chl. disappears in Eba. and appears again in Mlba. .
See his posts here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...atolia-was-6000-5000-ybp-(4000-3000-BC)/page4
Hmm, interesting. I'd expect some pseudo-EHG from ANE + something WHG-like in Zarzian territory (as I think R1a and R1b mostly diversified around the Northern Zagros; plus, I think EHG has some Iran_Meso without Basal Eurasian in it), but not sure why it completely disappears with Kura-Araxes.
Apparently though (from Lazaridis):
Armenia ChL = c. 18% EHG, 50% IRAN N, 17% Levant N, 14% WHG
Kura Araxes = c. 12% EHG, , 58% IRAN N, 14% Levant N, 16% WHG
Armenia MLBA = c. 22% EHG, 53% IRAN N, 11% Levant N, 13% WHG
I never said that...
Yeah, it's the brother of P297. In my view, R1a/b diversified around Iran, with R1b-L754 pre-V88 moving into Europe as part of the Epigravettian. As mentioned, I think specific subclades of R1b and R1a spread from Iran to the Urals, before heading West with the introduction of pottery into Eastern Europe.
According to Bernard Sergent the lithic assemblage of the first Kurgan culture in Ukraine (Sredni Stog II), which originated from the Volga and South Urals, recalls that of the Mesolithic-Neolithic sites to the east of the Caspian sea, Dam Dam Chesme II and the cave of Djebel.[27]He places the roots of the Gimbutas' Kurgan cradle of Indo-Europeans in a more southern cradle, and adds that the Djebel material is related to a Paleolithic material of Northwestern Iran, the Zarzian culture, dated 10000–8500 BC, and in the more ancient Kebarian of the Near East. He concludes that more than 10,000 years ago the Indo-Europeans were a small people grammatically, phonetically and lexically close to Semitic-Hamitic populations of the Near East.[28]
Further north still, in the southern Ural Mountains, the Mesolithic culture that
developed during the 11th Millennium BP clearly derived from Iran (Vasiliev et al, 1996),
based on similarity in microlithic technology and also in the fact that sheep and cattle
arrived at an early date. This culture then spread both east and west. In the west it has to
be assumed that the 10th Millennium BP Yelshanian culture of the Volga steppe,
previously described as Neolithic, developed from it, although the point was made that the description ‘Neolithic’ really only refers to the people’s use of pottery and the presence of some domesticated animals. At the site of Mullino to the west of the Urals,
the earliest Mesolithic layers have been dated to 8.5-8.3ky BP (Matyushin, 1986), and
this is followed by a 300-500 year gap before the first true Neolithic culture appears.
Matyushin (1986) dates the first true Neolithic culture of the Volga steppe to around
7.6ky BP. He makes the point that there are anthropological affinities between the
Neolithic people of Mullino and those of the Mediterranean and the Middle East,
contrasting with the broad-faced Russians of the Mesolithic.
Thus the picture would appear to be that of a northward movement of Iran-derived
culture right at the start of the Holocene, developing into the 11th Millennium BP
Mesolithic cultures of the southern Urals, the Yelshanian culture of the steppe and the
earliest occupation levels at Mullino. The occupational gap at Mullino is consistent with a
widespread disaster having occurred in about 8.2ky BP, and the progress of subsequent
Neolithic culture is consistent with a re-colonisation of low-lying areas from a survivor
population in the southern Urals.
Lol, I wasn't that interested in R1b so I'd always assumed there were M269s in Khvalynsk or some other early steppe culture.
M269 might as well have come from the moon in that case. We need samples from other places, not same old Transcaucasus/PC steppe/Zagros.
Well the main thing is the etc. - immediately after that I say that their earliest dated kurgans (in that study at least) date to the Maykop period, almost 500 years after the first of the Steppe North Caucasian kurgans.And how your hypothesis explain the complete dissapearance of Basal Eurasian from Dzudzuana to Villabruna and R1b?
Oh come on please... Back in 2016 you saw that Yamnaya was EHG + CHG, you thought " what is the link? " then you googled Caucasus Neolithic and Shulaveri-Shomu was the absolute only result. You didn't create a whole hypothesis that make sense, you just filled the gap with what could be the best proxy. Nobody ever say that Shulaveri-Shomu didn't participate to the creation of the Steppe package, people are calling you out for always trying to put R1b-M269 while absolutely nothing is giving you credit. That you noticed that Shulaveri-Shomu had Wine and that IE cultures have a strong Wine symbolism, doesn't give you any credit. Stop always bashing others, and wait for your godamn Shulaveri paper in silence.
Yeah, Samara and Khvalynsk R1b aren't even P297 I don't believe (at most R1b1a, so more archaic than the V88 in Iron Gates!).
Yes. I will still ignore you. Your role and intent is to provoque me in order for that other someone (s) is able to give me an infraction.
this exchange of females must have happened around 7 ka, early khvalynsk
If PIE was an ANE language it would have been agglutinative. All the languages of North Eurasia are agglutinative. PIE was born somewhere very close / around of Caucasus.
Just to make it clear how far Wang et al went in the direction of my shulaverian Hypothesis
This is in accordance with the Neolithization of the Caucasus (ie The Shulaveri-Shomu), which had started in the flood plains of South Caucasian rivers (ie Kura and araxes river where shulaveri lived) in the 6th millennium BCE (yes, 6000bc to 5000BC when Shulaveri were there), from where it spread across to the West/Northwest (exactly like the shulaverian hypothesis says, the ones that went west and the ones into kuban river and the steppe) during the following millennium (yes, from 4900BC to 4000BC) . It remains unclear whether the local CHG ancestry profile (Kotias Klde and Satsurblia in today’s Georgia) was also present in the North Caucasus region before the Neolithic. However, if we take the CHG ancestry as a local baseline and the oldest Eneolithic Caucasus individuals from our transect as a proxy for the local Late Neolithic ancestry, we notice a substantial increase in AF ancestry. This in all likelihood reflects the process of Neolithization, which also brought this type of ancestry to Europe. As a consequence, it is possible that Neolithic groups could have reached the northern foothills earlier35 (Supplementary Note 1). Hence, additional sampling from older individuals would be desirable to fill this temporal and spatial gap (yes, as if reich and Krauser do not have those samples for a while...).
From this point on, on the next published papers, it will start to appear the mentions to, as "the hypothesis of Ian Mathieson in 2018" and "as we had anticipated in Wang et al"
This is how it is done. Its just fun to watch.
Interestingly, and I don't think anybody has actually mentioned this somehow, but the first North Caucasian kurgans (in the Wang paper) are seen with Steppe individuals (Progress and Vonyuchka) around 4200 BCE, with the typical Caucasians (e.g. Y DNA J etc.) joining in the trend at least 400 years later (i.e. when Maykop begins). So, despite older kurgans in the South Caucasus and perhaps with deeper origins in Mesopotamia, it appears that kurgan burials were never spread from "farmers" to Steppe folk.
What's more, it seems like this is a link to Leyla Tepe, which was earlier than Maykop and had kurgans at exactly the same time Progress and Vonyuchka did (those barely North Caucasian individuals Davidski is raving about as proof against a Southern origin of IE).
The Soyugbulag kurgans of Leyla Tepe are located in the Kaspi municipality. which is immediately to the South of Ossetia, where Progress and Vonyuchka were found, and corresponding with this map showing the genetic barrier between North and South that is the Caucasus:
This parting is exactly where the Leyla Tepe kurgans were found, and where the first North Caucasian kurgans (those of Progress and Vonyuchka) were also found.
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