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Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history

Probably these are the 3(three) SF-BA2, the 2(two) SF-IA1 and 1(one) SF-BA1 that are closer to Iberians:

ceIkdic.jpg


Comparatively with samples of same age, a little more of WHG and a little bit less of yamna. Am I wrong?
 
Duarte said:
@bigsnake49. I think it was here:

LI90Fun.jpg
Click to expand...

Further south and far to the east. Pontic Greek?

It's hard to distinguish between the Albanians and Mainland Greeks too. Couldn't they have used contrasting colors??? Maybe the Albanians are indeed mostly in one spot: just east of Tuscans, along with northern Greeks, but running up toward Bulgarians?

What do you think? I'm slightly color blind they tell me. I know, odd for a woman, but there you have it. My Dad was severely color blind, so I blame him. No wonder he liked sculpting more than painting. :)
 
Regio X said:
@Bicicleur
This is interesting.


And "if" the samples are classified purely by age in each phase and area, it seems to be a tendency for Steppe ancestry to increase along Bell Beaker period, decrease along Bronze Age and increase again along the Iron Age.
Click to expand...


Yes, really interesting if image shows it "over time" (oldest to newest) and have those two R1b L151 and P312 steppe warriors have so little steppe in them, does it not???
 
Duarte said:
Probably these are the 3(three) SF-BA2, the 2(two) SF-IA1 and 1(one) SF-BA1 that are closer to Iberians:

ceIkdic.jpg


Comparatively with samples of same age, a little more of WHG and a little bit less of yamna. Am I wrong?
Click to expand...

I think that's right as far as Yamnaya is concerned, but as to WHG I'm not sure. They're consistent in having it, and some of the Bell Beaker, Bronze and Iron Age samples don't have any at all. Of the ones who do have it, maybe it's approximately the same if we averaged it out? Could the difference be in the amount of "farmer" as well?

I really can't tell. Maybe we need a ruler.:)

In the Tables it will tell us precisely, but unfortunately the rest of the samples aren't labeled,so I don't think I can say anything definitive.

From Table S 9

It runs Yamnaya/Anatolia/Villabruna
[TABLE="width: 481"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 90"]Pir3037AB[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 175"]0.37[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 94"]0.409[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 122"]0.222[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="width: 481"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 90"]Quin58[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 175"]0.273[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 94"]0.449[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 122"]0.278[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 481"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 90"]Quin234[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 175"]0.345[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 94"]0.503[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 122"]0.152[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Pir6[TABLE="width: 391"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 175"]0.366[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 94"]0.445[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 122"]0.19[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Now for Iron Age:

[TABLE="width: 481"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 90"]PECH8[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 175"]0.412[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 94"]0.426[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 122"]0.163[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 481"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 90"]PT2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 175"]0.429[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 94"]0.419[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 122"]0.152[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Btw, any idea which samples are closest to Italy?
 
Angela said:
Further south and far to the east. Pontic Greek?

It's hard to distinguish between the Albanians and Mainland Greeks too. Couldn't they have used contrasting colors??? Maybe the Albanians are indeed mostly in one spot: just east of Tuscans, along with northern Greeks, but running up toward Bulgarians?

What do you think? I'm slightly color blind they tell me. I know, odd for a woman, but there you have it. My Dad was severely color blind, so I blame him. No wonder he liked sculpting more than painting. :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, the colors are too close together between Greeks & Albanians particularly since they overlap so much. I did not think that Albanians would be so close to Bulgarians, I was kind of surprised by that. What I was not surprised by was the overlap and closeness between Bulgarians and Romanians. I guess the Ancient Thracians & Dacians were pretty close. As far as that one way out there sample, maybe Cappadocian Greeks. The ones that are separate from the main cluster probably Pontic or Thracian Greeks.
 
Has someone actually checked the chart and found they're all in chronological order? Is it oldest to youngest or the reverse? I would think the 100% steppe Beaker sample would be one of the first arrivals, yes?
 
Angela said:
Has someone actually checked the chart and found they're all in chronological order? Is it oldest to youngest or the reverse? I would think the 100% steppe Beaker sample would be one of the first arrivals, yes?
Click to expand...
It was an "if" on my side. It could be, also, that they're classified by Steppe (it looks more likely; still...). I don't know. I was in doubt because of PEI2 in Bell Beakers, who has more Steppe than I1388 just above.

ED: They don't seem classified by age in the Chart I posted. Sorry. ->
https://www.pnas.org/highwire/filestream/927577/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/pnas.1918034117.sd01.xlsx


Also curious this G2a1 in Late Neolithic (they're generally G2a2). I don't remember of another one. Is it perhaps the first? G2a1 is way more common in Caucasus nowadays (Georgia, Ossetia...).
 
Ok.

I'm going to just look up Bell Beaker for now. I can't find dates for the samples starting with 113 anywhere. I'll keep looking in the Tables.

[TABLE="width: 1757"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 94"]CBV95[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 276"]La Bouche-à-Vesle[/TD]
[TD="class: xl71, width: 157"]Ciry_Salsogne[/TD]
[TD="class: xl71, width: 157"]49.36232[/TD]
[TD="class: xl71, width: 157"]3.46272[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 269"]Late Neolithic[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 269"]Campaniforme[/TD]
[TD="class: xl71, width: 94"]3970 +/- 30BP (GrA-32767)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl72, width: 79"]2574-2452[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 205"]Hauts-de-France (North)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
11381
11390
11391
11382
11389
11388
[TABLE="width: 1552"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 94"]PEI2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 276"]Dolmen des Peirières[/TD]
[TD="class: xl71, width: 157"]Villedubert[/TD]
[TD="class: xl71, width: 157"]43.1355[/TD]
[TD="class: xl71, width: 157"]2.2519[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 269"]Late Neolithic[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 269"]Campaniforme[/TD]
[TD="class: xl71, width: 94"]3935 +/- 30BP (Ly-14875)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl72, width: 79"]2563-2308[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Does anyone knows why only two bell beakers appear in the supplements and all other BBC , "I" , with several (L151 and P312) are absent? I have checked several of the excel supplements and can't seem to find those...

Edit: and does anyone know where the "I" is from or stands for?
 
Olympus Mons said:
Does anyone knows why only two bell beakers appear in the supplements and all other BBC , "I" , with several (L151 and P312) are absent? I have checked several of the excel supplements and can't seem to find those...

Edit: and does anyone know where the "I" is from or stands for?
Click to expand...

If you'll look at post number 31, you'll see I can't find them either.

As for I1

[TABLE="width: 2722"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 86"]Cx161[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 190"]I1a2b4~[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 106, align: right"]134632[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 124, align: right"]179[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 90, align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 62, align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 62, align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 62, align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 1940"]I-FGC3466

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="width: 1055"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 106"]Lyon-15193[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 85"]Cx161[/TD]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 257"]ZAC Agora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 63, align: right"]5340[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 63, align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 63, align: right"]51.44[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 63, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 63, align: right"]3.2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 133, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 159"] 4314-4052 cal E
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="width: 620"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68, width: 86"]Cx161[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 86"]SF-MN[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 86"]12331[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 86"]55[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 86"]H1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 86"]0.999[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 104"]0+/-0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



I don't find an autosomal analysis anywhere. Apparently they didn't have enough material to get that for all of them. I accept that.

There's no excuse for a whole set of BB samples not having dates assigned to them or showing up in the Tabes with percentages when they've clearly done the analysis since it appears in the chart with proportions of Yamnaya, Anatolia Neolithic, and Villabruna.

Some of the BB men do indeed not have very much steppe, as is also true of the Bronze Age, but what the chronology is I'm still not sure. They may go in opposite directions. It does seem to me the 100% steppe Beaker is one of the early arrivals, perhaps?
 
Angela said:
If you'll look at post number 31, you'll see I can't find them either.

A


Some of the BB men do indeed not have very much steppe, as is also true of the Bronze Age, but what the chronology is I'm still not sure. They may go in opposite directions. It does seem to me the 100% steppe Beaker is one of the early arrivals, perhaps?
Click to expand...

Even Davidki says it looks 100% CWC... so can not be 100% steppe.
 
That's odd. Earlier today there were no Excel files in the Supporting Information. Now they show up. I can finally find answers to y questions.

1) Regarding E1b samples, there are:

- 4 of the E1b1b samples are from the Michelsberg culture in Alsace.
- one E1b1a1a1a1c2c (CTS3274) sample (PSS282) from Pont-sur-Seine (between Paris and Troyes). That one is highly surprising as it is normally found in places like Senegal and North Africa.
- one E1b1b from Le Cailar (between Montpellier and Nîmes) dating from the second Iron Age (La Tène culture).

2) Here are the I1 samples:

a) a Middle Neolithic I1 sample, Cugnaux near Toulouse in SW France dated 5300 ybp. This sample is I1-FGC3466 (aka S5619), which according to Yfull was formed 4600 ybp and has a TMRCA of 3800 ybp. It is a rare branch of I1a2-Z58>Z138 found in Western Europe.

I1-tree-2016.png


b) an Early Bronze Age I1-Y6885, downstream of I1a2-Z58>Z60>Z140>A196>Y6900. This branch is found apparently only in Britain and Ireland today. Yfull gives a age of 3200 ybp and TMRCA of 1050 ybp. The archeological sample is dated 3490 ybp, so slightly older.

I1-Z140-tree.png


c) an I1 (no subclade provided) from Bessan (between Montpellier and Narbonne) from the second Iron Age (La Tène culture).

d) Excel file #11 also lists another I1 (GOX287) but it is not listed elsewhere, so I don't know the location and age.

Conclusion regarding I1 : both ancient French samples are older than current age estimates for those clades. It is the first compelling evidence that some I1 branches are not of Scandinavian/Germanic origin.


3) Figure S3-2 in the OP appears incorrect. It showed several C1a2 samples from the Bronze Age, but none are listed in the Excel file. There is only one C1a2 sample from Neolithic Alsace.
 
bicicleur said:
We know that the Belgae were not 100 % Celtic, they were already a mix of Celtic and Germanic tribes.
Some Germanic tribes may have infiltrated further south too, like Ariovistus did in Ceasar's time.
The first Germanic tribes we know of are the Cimbri and the Teutones, because the Romans new them.
Many other tribes may have been wandering around without us knowing it.
Click to expand...


Some people have even thought there was a thrird group, speaking the famous N-W European (IE) languages among the so called Belgae.
PLus: the supposed Belgae tribes (whatever their genuine ethnic affiliation) were settled until the Seine river, covering a lot of North and East today France territories, if I recall correctly.
 
Angela said:
What they said in regard to MtDna N1a could perhaps be applied to all uniparentals, i.e. any lineage which was less than 25% of the total has a 95% chance of not being picked up.

Differences between northern and southern France go back to the Neolithic. That’s sometimes obscured in their graph covering broad areas and time periods.For example, look at all the U5b in Michelsberg culture.

I think they’re right to question the origin of these mitochondrial lineages. Perhaps, along with some “local” resurgence, we also have people moving in from further north.

So perhaps we could say that pre-Bronze Age, the south was fairly homogeneous in terms of mtDna but the north was heterogeneous with quite a few areas showing more U5b.

I think this fits in with a scenario where there just weren’t as many Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in Southern Europe, and so the Neolithic “take over” was pretty complete.

With the Bronze Age come I, U2, and U5a. So, some women came to France with the steppe admixed groups, unlike what seems to have happened in Spain.
Interesting also in this regard are the Bell Beakers. Perhaps it’s a function of small sample sizes, but there’s very little U of any kind; it’s almost all H and K.

Then the U5a and U5b go up in the Bronze Age (continuing migration?) to go back down in the Iron Age.

The Iron Age is interesting in another way in that H and J go way up. They point out the similarly high levels of H on the Pontic steppe and the J in central Europe Neolithic. Is that a hint for them of another population movement from more Central Europe?
Click to expand...



As you say, the BB's mt samples are too tiny to give us any certainty; but I find amazing the mtDNA change in IA (regions would be useful here)
 
I highly doubt the e1b1a.... 😲
Some expert need to go on the bam
Files when they are avilable
And check the calls.... 🤔
About e-m78 not surprised
It is the european branch of e1b1b
While m123 more in middle east and m81 in north west - africa iberia
 
Maciamo said:
a) a Middle Neolithic I1 sample, Cugnaux near Toulouse in SW France dated 5300 ybp. This sample is I1-FGC3466 (aka S5619), which according to Yfull was formed 4600 ybp and has a TMRCA of 3800 ybp. It is a rare branch of I1a2-Z58>Z138 found in Western Europe.
Click to expand...
YFull also works with a CI 95%. In this case, we should look to the age of formation, since this is probably a non-full developed I1-S5619 (likely the sample is negative for some current S5619 equivalents - there're seven). That said, the CI 95% of formation in YFull is not that off: 5200-4100 ybp.

b) an Early Bronze Age I1-Y6885, downstream of I1a2-Z58>Z60>Z140>A196>Y6900. This branch is found apparently only in Britain and Ireland today. Yfull gives a age of 3200 ybp and TMRCA of 1050 ybp. The archeological sample is dated 3490 ybp, so slightly older.
Click to expand...
Likely not a full-developed I1-Y6885 either. CI 95% of formation: 3900-2500 ybp.
 
Here are the R1b clades deeper than P312 from the paper:
[TABLE="class: outer_border, width: 600"]
[TR]
[TD]Sample ID[/TD]
[TD]Location[/TD]
[TD]Age[/TD]
[TD]Haplogroup[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]OBE3626-1[/TD]
[TD]Obernai, Alsace[/TD]
[TD]EBA, c. 1800 BCE[/TD]
[TD]R1b-DF27>Z225[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]BIS159[/TD]
[TD]Bischwihr, Alsace[/TD]
[TD]EBA, c. 1900 BCE[/TD]
[TD]R1b-U152[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]BIS382[/TD]
[TD]Bischwihr, Alsace[/TD]
[TD]EBA, c. 1900 BCE[/TD]
[TD]R1b-U152[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Unfortunately no deep clade for Iron Age Gauls. I hope we can determine them by analysing the raw data.
 
Maciamo said:
Here are the R1b clades deeper than P312 from the paper:
[TABLE="class: outer_border, width: 600"]
[TR]
[TD]Sample ID[/TD]
[TD]Location[/TD]
[TD]Age[/TD]
[TD]Haplogroup[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]OBE3626-1[/TD]
[TD]Obernai, Alsace[/TD]
[TD]EBA, c. 1800 BCE[/TD]
[TD]R1b-DF27>Z225[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]BIS159[/TD]
[TD]Bischwihr, Alsace[/TD]
[TD]EBA, c. 1900 BCE[/TD]
[TD]R1b-U152[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]BIS382[/TD]
[TD]Bischwihr, Alsace[/TD]
[TD]EBA, c. 1900 BCE[/TD]
[TD]R1b-U152[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Unfortunately no deep clade for Iron Age Gauls. I hope we can determine them by analysing the raw data.
Click to expand...
According to the graph I posted, PIR3037AB (EBA - 3663 +/- 43BP) is supposedly R-Y28681 (formation from 4200 to 2700 ybp), below R-L21. Not sure where the categorization comes from.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y28681/
 
Regio X said:
YFull also works with a CI 95%. In this case, we should look to the age of formation, since this is probably a non-full developed I1-S5619 (likely the sample is negative for some current S5619 equivalents - there're seven). That said, the CI 95% of formation in YFull is not that off: 5200-4100 ybp.
Click to expand...
As a side note, I'd say that the age of the sample roughly corresponding to the upper limit of CI 95% provided by YFull for formation suggests that this clade (I1-S5619) must have originated around there. More than that, a I1-S5619 obviously descend from a full developed I1 necessarily, and I1's CI 95% TMRCA is 5100-4000 ybp (we could say 5200-4000 ybp based on the range for I1-S5619 formation).

Considering the SNPs upstream S5619 till this "complete" I1 - the MRCA -, five are located in combBED region of Y chromosome - the one used by YFull for age estimation. 5 SNPs in a CI 95% generally mean a lower limit of ~400 years. I'm using this lower limit here since the actual I1's MRCA unlikely lived so out of YFull interval, then I was guessing something like 5700 ybb for the actual TMRCA of I1, more or less. Assuming that the date of Cx161 is correct.

Conclusion is that I think it's pretty possible that the I1 MRCA, from Neolithic, lived somewhere in France, or close to. While some pre-I1s were mostly Wester Hunter-Gatherers in Autosomal and something else before that, others must have been farmers mostly, like the MRCA individual, too. That's new.
 
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