Ancient Genomes suggest Basque are descended of Late Neolithic Iberians

How amazing history is! Horse riders riding from Crimea to Madrid to prove forum theories about R1b 6,000 years later.It's clear the M269*s were the Leif Ericssons, the L23*s were the Columbuses, the Z2103 the Conquistadors, and L51 the Pilgrims.

Humour just doesn't work...

I don't understand a thing, and I wrote this post another time in this forum: why - I pray for an answer - when it comes to talk about R1b then all theories about its connection with IE speakers MUST be ridiculous and biased? Why R1b only must be the most maltreated haplogroup?

I'm a G2a3 man from Italy - so no conflict of interest - but I really realized that all people in many fora are against R1b carriers, in a way that I would define rich in envy and anger.

I understand that, sometimes, genetic studies aren't the field of pure science... but the field of despicable politics.
 
Humour just doesn't work...

I don't understand a thing, and I wrote this post another time in this forum: why - I pray for an answer - when it comes to talk about R1b then all theories about its connection with IE speakers MUST be ridiculous and biased? Why R1b only must be the most maltreated haplogroup?

I'm a G2a3 man from Italy - so no conflict of interest - but I really realized that all people in many fora are against R1b carriers, in a way that I would define rich in envy and anger.

I understand that, sometimes, genetic studies aren't the field of pure science... but the field of despicable politics.

your G2a3 can be further drilled down to G2a3a ( greek aegean area ) or G2a3b ( caucasus mountains ) if you do further testing

In regards to the "Humour" ............one need to know why the move from steppe to Iberia ................which is why I think the move was in a group and took a very long time.
There was no Leif Erirsson ( I have been given a map on where I am to go ) scenario
 
Humour just doesn't work...

I don't understand a thing, and I wrote this post another time in this forum: why - I pray for an answer - when it comes to talk about R1b then all theories about its connection with IE speakers MUST be ridiculous and biased? Why R1b only must be the most maltreated haplogroup?

I'm a G2a3 man from Italy - so no conflict of interest - but I really realized that all people in many fora are against R1b carriers, in a way that I would define rich in envy and anger.

I understand that, sometimes, genetic studies aren't the field of pure science... but the field of despicable politics.

which part of Italy? Abrosso, Apulia?
G2a3a was detected there if remember correct.
 
which part of Italy? Abrosso, Apulia?
G2a3a was detected there if remember correct.
Hey Yetos, are you going to check your Y hg soon? It would be funny if it turned Slavic-Macedonian R1a type. ;)
 
the wheel, all of a sudden it was there +/- 3500 BC (or is this revised to 3000 BC ?)
and it spread immeadiately in Yamnaya, all over the steppe till Mongolia, in corded ware and even in Mesopotamia and central Europe

The wheel (and horses) enabled the true nomadic lifestyle that allowed animal herders to move constantly with their herds and all their belongings. It was very different from the nomadic way of hunter-gatherers, because H-G depended on the knowledge and richness of local environment, the seasonal migrations of wild animals, etc. With domestication and wagons, people suddenly became free of all constraints.

It may not be easy to imagine how it must have been when we look at today's world of states with borders, armies, law and police, but the world 5000 years ago was wide open for anyone who wanted to roam it. Neolithic villages were so thinly scattered that it was easy to circumvent them. It makes sense that nomadic Yamna people would have spread in all directions pretty much as far as they could. Moving south was more perilous because of diseases in warmer climes (esp. Africa) as Jared Diamond explained in Guns, Germs and Steel. But as long as they stayed roughly around the same latitude, the world is their oyster.


the horse, we don't know
were they just hunted? or herded? or domesticated? or ridden?
it is not clear for a long period of time
and it didn't spread in great numbers either, therefore - I guess - a domesticated horse was to expensive in maintenance costs

David Anthony uses bridles and mouthpieces as evidence of horse riding, and these come at least by 4000 BCE.

Why would domesticated horses be too expensive to maintain for steppe nomads ? Horses eat grass, which is plentiful in the steppe. That is their natural environment.

i'm not sure this ATP3 came on horse
he might have reached Iberia by boat too
same as you'd expect for Los Millares

I thought about it too, but there are many problems with coming to Iberia by boat.

1) In 3500 BCE galleys didn't exist yet, only smaller boats. So unless they followed the coasts all the way from the Black Sea to Spain, a journey surely as perilous as the Odyssey, it's highly improbable that they would have made it without any map or any knowledge of where they were going.

2) Add to this that small boats couldn't carry big animals like cows. If they were Steppe cattle herders, why would they suddenly leave their land bound lifestyle and migrate on boats to distant lands, without their animals ? What would they have eaten along the way ? Steppe nomads aren't fishermen and don't have knowledge of the sea.

3) We could imagine that ATP3 does not descend from Steppe nomads, but rather from some Near Eastern people. But if that is the case, the only region that would have such high frequency of Caucaso-Gedrosian (Northern Middle Eastern) in 3500 BCE would be around the Caucasus and Iran, not Anatolia and the Levant with their high EEF-like admixture + Southwest Asian and Red Sea admixtures, and certainly not Egypt. Then why would they have Mongoloid and Northeast European admixture (and mtDNA) if they came from the Middle East ?

4) El Portalon Cave is very deep inland. If they were sea travelers, why would they suddenly drop their boats and move across the Catalan mountains, the arid plains of Aragon and Castile and settle in a cave ? This is just too far fetched.

5) There is ample evidence that R1a/R1b Steppe nomads traveled quickly very long distances, to the Altai, Siberia and Mongolia to the east, and to Scandinavia to the north-west (for R1a) in just a few generations. Why would it be so hard to conceive that some early R1b nomads ended up in Iberia by the time other R1b nomads reached the Altai, even if it is 1000 years before the massive R1b invasion of Western Europe that would destroy Megalithic societies ? I suggested many years ago that the Bell Beaker culture was infiltrated progressively by small incursions of R1b people. That's what the red dots (= R1b) represent on my migration maps. It's just that these incursions may have started earlier than I thought, on a scale so small as to be undetectable by archaeological remains alone.

early_middle_bronze_europe.png
 
David Anthony uses bridles and mouthpieces as evidence of horse riding, and these come at least by 4000 BCE.

Why would domesticated horses be too expensive to maintain for steppe nomads ? Horses eat grass, which is plentiful in the steppe. That is their natural environment.

I mean in Europe.
In a short notice there where wagons everywhere.
But horses, there was only a very small elite who had them.
 
I mean in Europe.
In a short notice there where wagons everywhere.
But horses, there was only a very small elite who had them.

where were the horses kept when the steppe was under months of snow ?
 
@Maciamo,

ATP3 is of low coverage and Genetickers ADMIXTURE test is unreliable. Analysis of the very high coverage ATP2 showed he had no Steppe ancestry, he was a typical Neolithic European(with very high WHG). ATP3 either had very little Steppe-related ancestry or none.
 
where were the horses kept when the steppe was under months of snow ?

cattle can't survive winter on the steppe without being foddered
but wild horses can clear the snow on top of the grass
according to David Anthony, that is why IE started to herd horses instead of cattle
 
copper workers

by sea to crete by sea to the Med. islands and eventually iberia

(others crete to cyprus to egypt etc)

hence minority presence among standard farmers

imo
 
@Maciamo,

ATP3 is of low coverage and Genetickers ADMIXTURE test is unreliable. Analysis of the very high coverage ATP2 showed he had no Steppe ancestry, he was a typical Neolithic European(with very high WHG). ATP3 either had very little Steppe-related ancestry or none.


So, why its admixture is unreliable, but its attribution to haplogroup R-M269 is reliable?

Richard Rocca on Anthrogenica noticed that in the site where ATP3 is buried there is a wrist guard and arrow points.


And, the last thing, probably, ATP2 and ATP3 weren't connected to each other at all: many years were spent between the two individuals.
 
your G2a3 can be further drilled down to G2a3a ( greek aegean area ) or G2a3b ( caucasus mountains ) if you do further testing

In regards to the "Humour" ............one need to know why the move from steppe to Iberia ................which is why I think the move was in a group and took a very long time.
There was no Leif Erirsson ( I have been given a map on where I am to go ) scenario

Thanks for suggestion Sile, but, frankly, I'm not interested at all about my haplogroup: its origins are somewhat understood now. I'm much more interested in R1b, the greatest mystery in European history!
 
this is what I have

SpainEls Trocs [Troc3]M5178-5066 BCR1b1cM415+, M343+, [L754 equivalent: L774/PF6245/YSC277+, PF1144+, V88 eqivalent: PF6376+] M478-, PF6399-, L265-, L150-, M269-, V35-, V69-pre-T2c1d2Haak 2015; personal comm Sergey Malyshev, review of Y-DNA raw data
[/QUOTE )


SO it is the same, and he was Y R-V88; thanks for the confirmation; it does not prove nor disprove more at this stage conncerning other M269 derived in Europe
 
I don't know how some people can still view L23->L51 at the heart of the IE expansions even after all the evidence. R1a's connection to IE speakers is undisputed after Sintasha findings, modern high R1a frequencies in South Asia and their link to Corded Ware. L23->Z2103 is found in steppe at high frequencies and it is prevalent in Western Asia, Balkans, Eastern Europe where IE languages are spoken.L51 is nowhere to be found around the steppe, and the most likely scenario is that L23's homeland is around Eastern Anatolia, with the northern branch of Z2103 being the Maykops/Steppe people, and the western branch of L51 being the farming branch that travels through the Danube to western Europe. El Portalon just confirms this.

I 'm not persuaded Y-R1a is the I-Eans basis; rather an acculturated group of ethnies which gave rise to the satem group (where I would put Corded). For the origin of Y-R1b L23 you could be right, even if the Maykop episode is still to be better understood (sense of moves: culture moves can be opposite to demic moves in osmosis: not to forget). The differences between Yamnaya and Catacombs, even if far from being total, could be due to a strong presence of Y-R1b-L23 among these last ones, with perhaps also Y-G2a. They could have been a remained party of other L23 I-Eans already routing West and North. I avow it's pure guess. Some archeologists think Catacombs are rather indo-aryan concerning artefacts; but artefacts and modes can change with time, quicker than language, itself changing faster than whole population genomes. Other archeologist Konitsev) thinks Sintashta were culturally close to Indo-Iranians culture.
If El Trocs3 is R-V88, he don't prove nothing about other R-M269 derived haplos. Concerning L51, he is present too in Northern Europe, South Sweden and I keep in mind the allover diversity of Y-R1b was said to be greater in East Nortern Europe than in South-West Europe, the Basques being the poorest (Irish not far); perhaps newer studies could disprove this? THat does not discard a Neolithic wave along the Danube but here we have to imagine a NEW>wave and to FIND Y-R1b DNA among LBK or successors: let's wait but it seems very uncertain. I keep in my sleeve the possibility of a Y-R1b wave or demic accumulation by maritime ways at the maritime Megalithics period (different neolithical people, later) and just after but... very hypothetic too, fragile! it would imply a rapid introgression into inlands (Central France?) before demic explosion leaving Basques ancestors aside for a while???. or a mix of lands and see ways?
Sorry if I'm not as sure of mine as some forumers.
Good afternoon
 
@Maciamo,

ATP3 is of low coverage and Genetickers ADMIXTURE test is unreliable. Analysis of the very high coverage ATP2 showed he had no Steppe ancestry, he was a typical Neolithic European(with very high WHG). ATP3 either had very little Steppe-related ancestry or none.

the new Genetiker analysis is surprising concerning poolings: I admit I've some doubts about his objectivity and poolings accuracy - here under:

[FONT=monospace, serif]ATP2 ATP3 ATP7 ATP9 ATP12 ATP16 ATP17 ATP20[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Neolithic European 80.38 49.49 88.17 67.83 82.82 90.82 99.53 54.34[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Gravettian 10.29 12.62 11.82 28.38 0.00 2.30 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Aurignacian 8.42 3.83 0.00 2.53 17.17 6.36 0.45 10.46[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Northern Mideastern 0.00 30.39 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Veddoid-Caucasoid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.14 0.00 0.00 0.00 28.91[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Amerindian 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.07 0.00 0.00 0.00 6.28[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Northern Mongoloid 0.84 3.66 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.51 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Australoid 0.00 0.00 0.00 1.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Southern Mideastern 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Eskimo 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Bushman 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Taiwanese aborigine 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Western Negroid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Southern Mongoloid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Eastern Negroid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Pygmy 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00

​different from his first analysis
[/FONT]
 
@Maciamo,

ATP3 is of low coverage and Genetickers ADMIXTURE test is unreliable. Analysis of the very high coverage ATP2 showed he had no Steppe ancestry, he was a typical Neolithic European(with very high WHG). ATP3 either had very little Steppe-related ancestry or none.

Genetiker made a new analysis with surprising poolings based upon ??? It have some doubts about his objectivity, but who knows?
[FONT=monospace, serif]ATP2 ATP3 ATP7 ATP9 ATP12 ATP16 ATP17 ATP20[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Neolithic European 80.38 49.49 88.17 67.83 82.82 90.82 99.53 54.34[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Gravettian 10.29 12.62 11.82 28.38 0.00 2.30 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Aurignacian 8.42 3.83 0.00 2.53 17.17 6.36 0.45 10.46[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Northern Mideastern 0.00 30.39 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Veddoid-Caucasoid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.14 0.00 0.00 0.00 28.91[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Amerindian 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.07 0.00 0.00 0.00 6.28[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Northern Mongoloid 0.84 3.66 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.51 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Australoid 0.00 0.00 0.00 1.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Southern Mideastern 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Eskimo 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Bushman 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Taiwanese aborigine 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Western Negroid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Southern Mongoloid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Eastern Negroid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Pygmy 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
 
I 'm not persuaded Y-R1a is the I-Eans basis; rather an acculturated group of ethnies which gave rise to the satem group (where I would put Corded). For the origin of Y-R1b L23 you could be right, even if the Maykop episode is still to be better understood (sense of moves: culture moves can be opposite to demic moves in osmosis: not to forget). The differences between Yamnaya and Catacombs, even if far from being total, could be due to a strong presence of Y-R1b-L23 among these last ones, with perhaps also Y-G2a. They could have been a remained party of other L23 I-Eans already routing West and North. I avow it's pure guess. Some archeologists think Catacombs are rather indo-aryan concerning artefacts; but artefacts and modes can change with time, quicker than language, itself changing faster than whole population genomes. Other archeologist Konitsev) thinks Sintashta were culturally close to Indo-Iranians culture.
If El Trocs3 is R-V88, he don't prove nothing about other R-M269 derived haplos. Concerning L51, he is present too in Northern Europe, South Sweden and I keep in mind the allover diversity of Y-R1b was said to be greater in East Nortern Europe than in South-West Europe, the Basques being the poorest (Irish not far); perhaps newer studies could disprove this? THat does not discard a Neolithic wave along the Danube but here we have to imagine a NEW>wave and to FIND Y-R1b DNA among LBK or successors: let's wait but it seems very uncertain. I keep in my sleeve the possibility of a Y-R1b wave or demic accumulation by maritime ways at the maritime Megalithics period (different neolithical people, later) and just after but... very hypothetic too, fragile! it would imply a rapid introgression into inlands (Central France?) before demic explosion leaving Basques ancestors aside for a while???. or a mix of lands and see ways?
Sorry if I'm not as sure of mine as some forumers.
Good afternoon

This is generally how I see it as well, and I have many of the same questions. I think we have to remember that Haak et al were very careful to state they were only dealing with one part of the spread of the Indo-European languages into Europe.
 
where were the horses kept when the steppe was under months of snow ?

Horses can dig in the snow with their hoofs to clear up the grass. Otherwise how would they have survived in the wild before domestication ?
 
So, why its admixture is unreliable, but its attribution to haplogroup R-M269 is reliable?

Richard Rocca on Anthrogenica noticed that in the site where ATP3 is buried there is a wrist guard and arrow points.


And, the last thing, probably, ATP2 and ATP3 weren't connected to each other at all: many years were spent between the two individuals.

Y SNPs are straightforward. Other have confirmed Geneticker's results. ADMIXTURE results can vary depending on how experienced the maker of an ADMIXTURE test is. Also, ATP3 is of low coverage so his ADMIXTURE results won't be accurate. Other analysis of ATP3 shows him as a typical Middle Neolithic guy with maybe some ANE.

We've seen genetic continuation from Hungary-Spain ranging 5500-3000 BC. Almost nothing changed in that region for 2500 years. The only change was 20-30% added WHG ancestry. Yes, ATP3 and ATP2 are separated by many hundreds of years, but because of what we've seen in ancient DNA before it wuld be very strange if ATP3 was anything but a typical Middle Neolithic European.
 

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