Ancient Lombard Dna from Szolad and Collegno

I can show you dozens of results from fully Tuscans who are further north of TSI. TSI is a huge sample but based on 3 out of 4 grandparents born in Tuscany. Not the best and most reliable sample.

I notice you're literally trying to change the subject. So we went from the Italics in a Lombard cemetery to the Etruscans.


what is the Balkans ID or the Anatolian ID ? .........since TSI equals Tuscan
 
So, I spent the $$$ on this as well. The medical part sort of made me rethink the value of that site. It correctly predicted many things, including my hearing loss. Anyways, can anyone more intelligent than I tell me what this map is trying to tell me? What should I be looking at here given my own known ancestry? It appears that I'm not part of the exclusive Hellenic-Roman club! :)


image.py


Longobard + Saxon (3.065)
Celt + Longobard (3.315)
Longobard (5.104)
Celt (6.764)
Saxon (7.239)

image.py
 
I keep reading 'Longboard' for 'Longobard'. The only German tribe I got was the Franks; my male-line does come from Franconia, but I am twice as much English as I am German. As the predominant group I got was the Celts, perhaps my English ancestors were mostly Anglicized Celts!
 
I think CL94 was a Northern Roman sample (without Germanic or Greek admixture; but with some Celtic).
 

I can see where the locals are, and where the Germanics are. :)

Distance to:Angela
6.46676117SZ43
7.88178279CL36
8.36475343SZ28
9.17988562SZ31
9.21016829CL23
10.41424025SZ36
12.03847582SZ19
13.46236235CL121
13.64184738SZ37
13.75852463SZ40
14.98977652CL49
15.28010471CL94
15.45590826SZ1
18.31423490CL47
18.74603958CL110
19.23289630SZ45
19.41088870CL57
19.69635753SZ27
20.23486595CL102
21.11674217SZ18
21.87732388CL25
21.92327074CL53
22.38530321CL63
22.54289689SZ6
23.64079736SZ5
23.93474253SZ20
24.87802444CL31
25.30196040CL38
25.77662119SZ8
26.01374252CL30
26.34819538SZ3
28.14467800SZ35
28.53845476CL97
29.06323795SZ23
30.40050657SZ14
30.73170350SZ38
31.38078552CL87
32.23384867SZ42
32.39700603SZ30
32.73854914SZ24
32.78214758SZ12
33.55152158SZ11
34.32145976SZ15
34.33362929SZ25
34.96199794CL83
35.22221032SZ7
35.75875837CL84
36.47753418SZ22
36.86300720SZ13
37.47259532CL92

I don't get very close fits; I don't get close fits on gedmatch either.

This is the best..

Target: Angela
Distance: 5.4553% / 5.45531241 | ADC: 0.5x

45.8SZ43
32.6SZ28
21.6SZ19



Distance to:SZ43
3.22347173Italy_Tuscany
3.67599497Italy_Emilia
3.76627137Italy_Romagna
4.34573148Italy_Liguria
5.98984105Italy_Veneto
6.14160708Italy_Lombardy
6.66834463Italy_Piedmont
6.80685669Italy_Marche
6.83240397Italy_Lazio
7.08566271France_Corsica
8.15740155Albanian_Kosovo
8.31026931Italy_FriuliVG
8.45714491Albanian_North
9.51176443Swiss_Italian
10.06146411Italy_Trentino
12.47558791Italy_Abruzzo
13.21395122Italy_Aosta_Valley
13.42635468Macedonian
13.48384589Gagauz
14.15735851Greek
14.17751628Italy_Apulia
15.21394446Italy_Campania
15.75183164Pomak
15.86236631Italy_Sicily
17.08022248Bulgarians

Distance to:SZ28
3.15688415Italy_Lombardy
3.68586183Italy_Veneto
4.18856241Italy_Piedmont
4.35651954Swiss_Italian
4.71988328Italy_Liguria
5.48467319Italy_Trentino
5.55766417Italy_Emilia
6.21216516Italy_FriuliVG
6.92259128Italy_Tuscany
8.29791210Italy_Aosta_Valley
9.19060934Italy_Romagna
9.78190554France_Corsica
11.12790187Albanian_North
11.51133789Albanian_Kosovo
12.48216864Italy_Lazio
12.51259198Italy_Marche
13.76495914Macedonian
14.89189377Baleares
15.67665143Gagauz
16.13758036Galicia
16.55178238Pomak
17.28839206Extremadura
17.83082724Portuguese
18.07756897Romanians
18.11171168Bulgarians

Distance to:SZ19
9.50406745Italy_Marche
9.76339214Italy_Campania
10.06507326Italy_Abruzzo
10.27952820Greek
10.81723504Italy_Lazio
11.13217122France_Corsica
11.28365632Italy_Romagna
11.75672425Italy_Sicily
12.19551967Ashkenazi
12.21422743Italy_Calabria
12.24901580Italy_Apulia
12.71852193Ashkenazy_Jews
13.08157445Italy_Tuscany
14.63705267Italy_Emilia
15.20139172Italy_Liguria
15.72546661Greek_Crete
16.03143475Albanian_Kosovo
16.15626504Sephardic_Jews
16.85413896Albanian_North
17.28014796Italy_Lombardy
18.05386108Morocco_Jews
18.42836177Italy_Veneto
18.70324892Italy_Piedmont
18.93550369Crimean_Tatar_Coast
20.45296350Italy_FriuliVG
 
mine .......................which are the Germanics?

Distance to:Torziok12b
4.82277928
Collegno23
6.00532264Szolad28
6.60955369Collegno49
6.93799683Collegno94
7.62312272Collegno57
7.70831369Collegno36
7.72828571Collegno47
7.93197958Szolad45
8.04854024Szolad43
8.12515231Szolad27
9.50909039Collegno102
9.57848631Szolad18
9.71251255Szolad31
10.29711610Szolad36
10.30020874Szolad1
11.11805738Collegno63
11.31026083Szolad37
11.39341915Collegno53
11.80897963Szolad6
12.50922460Szolad5
15.35938801Szolad8
16.17804067Szolad3
17.42612981Collegno121
17.49300432Collegno97
18.09335790Szolad23


51.6Collegno23
27.2Szolad27
14.8Szolad28
6.4Collegno47



my father below
Distance to:PonzanoK12b
5.67751706Collegno49
5.95225167Szolad28
6.08940063Collegno47
6.10329419Collegno23
6.37341353Collegno94
6.61260161Szolad45
7.21248917Collegno57
8.10768771Collegno102
8.39875586Szolad27
8.68036866Szolad18
9.25234565Collegno36
9.39199659Szolad43
10.01059439Szolad6
10.70744601Collegno63
10.81569693Szolad1
10.94461055Szolad31
11.36055456Szolad36
11.44666764Collegno53
11.56374939Szolad5
12.27215547Szolad37
14.14405175Szolad8
15.19414361Szolad3
16.54548881Collegno97
17.22175949Szolad23
18.43368655Szolad14
 
mine .......................which are the Germanics?


They come very close to my sample.

8w11j1yce.57.51.png


SZ7 is even from all ancients samples the closest match.

Match top three:
obtka2lzykg8u.09.48.png


geu4nke.10.27.png



That would make the Germanic picture clear, but I have doubts because the Celtic vs Germanic PCA of Eurogenes has more focus on recent drift.

The picture is different:
dm6xd19b8.04.54.png


So what's most close to the Germanics?

A practical solution would be if you have only G25 than my initial distances are ok.

 
Last edited:
They come very close to my sample.

8w11j1yce.57.51.png


SZ7 is even from all ancients samples the closest match.

Match top three:
obtka2lzykg8u.09.48.png


geu4nke.10.27.png



That would make the Germanic picture clear, but I have doubts because the Celtic vs Germanic PCA of Eurogenes has more focus on recent drift.

The picture is different:
dm6xd19b8.04.54.png


So what's most close to the Germanics?

A practical solution would be if you have only G25 than my initial distances are ok.



I have G25 and here below is my results against the scythians ( getae-thracians )

0.03215508Scythians:DEU_MA_ACD_NW_54
0.04234237Getae:Scythians_MDA_scy305
0.04536127Getae:Scythians_MDA_scy197
0.04889319Getae:Scythians_MDA_scy300
0.05228462Getae:Scythians_MDA_scy192
0.06228043Germanics:DEU_MA_AED_1135
0.06614894Getae:UKR_Cimmerian_MJ12
0.06967941Goths:UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky_MJ37
0.07145475Thracians:BGR_IA_I5769
0.08030358Scythians:Scythians_UKR_scy010

and or this

0.01844831IBERIAN:Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL36
0.01939716ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN:Scythian_Moldova:scy305
0.02074078ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN::Germany_Medieval_ACD:NW_54
0.02078750ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN:Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ37
0.02215920IBERIAN:Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10892
0.02454689ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN:Scythian_Moldova:scy197
0.02488735GRECO-ROMAN:Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL121
0.02665746IBERIAN:Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10895
0.02682257GRECO-ROMAN:Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ43
0.02767562CELTIBERIAN:Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES:I7673
0.02947338ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN:Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ32
0.03009252GERMANIC:Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ23
0.03143390IBERIAN:Germany_Roman:FN_2
0.03181886CELTIC:England_Roman:3DT16
0.03216209CELTIC:Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ14
0.03347536ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN:Balkans_IA:I5769
0.03365293AQUITANIAN:Iberia_North_IA:I3758
0.03389602CELTIC:Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ8
0.03398367CELTIBERIAN:Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES:I3777
0.03483848GERMANIC:Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ42
0.03484494CELTIC:England_Roman:6DT22
0.03506722CELTIBERIAN:Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12162
0.03543713GERMANIC:Germany_Medieval_ACD:STR_220
0.03579665GRECO-ROMAN:Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1:CL25
0.03619876IBERIAN:Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE:I3585
 
this abstract should be interesting in connection to the previews samples ......

Investigating population genomic continuity between the fifth and sixth century

The fourth through sixth centuries CE in Europe are commonly known as the Migration Period. Historical texts document that a group known as the Lombards, had settled in Pannonia (present-day western Hungary and surrounding regions) in the early sixth century, abandoned Pannonia in 568 CE and invaded Italy, ruling much of Italy for the next two centuries. We analyzed paleogenomic data from cemeteries associated with their migration and the communities that preceded them to test if and to what extent the population of Pannonia in the sixth century showed a change (possibly due to the arrival of the Lombards) and whether the migration/invasion into Italy may have occurred. We generated genomic data from 40 individuals from fifth century (pre-Lombard era) cemeteries from Hungary (Balatonszemes and Hács) and Italy (Bardonecchia and Lavazza). We analyzed these data alongside previously generated data from nearby sixth/seventh century (Lombard-era) cemeteries from Szólád (Hungary) and Collegno (Italy). We found that individuals from Bardonecchia and Lavazza predominantly had ancestry associated with contemporary southern Europeans, consistent with their geography. However, many of the individuals from Collegno possessed almost exclusively ancestry associated with contemporary northern Europeans, supporting the proposed Lombard migration into Italy during the sixth century. In contrast, we found that individuals from Balatonszemes and Hács possessed both northern and southern ancestry, as previously observed for Szólád. We analyzed the sharing of rare variants using medium (5-14x) coverage whole genomes to test whether this was representative of population continuity or migration between the fifth and sixth centuries.


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajpa.24023


p.s
hope for paper soon :unsure:
 
mine .......................which are the Germanics?

Distance to:Torziok12b
4.82277928Collegno23
6.00532264Szolad28
6.60955369Collegno49
6.93799683Collegno94
7.62312272Collegno57
7.70831369Collegno36
7.72828571Collegno47
7.93197958Szolad45
8.04854024Szolad43
8.12515231Szolad27
9.50909039Collegno102
9.57848631Szolad18
9.71251255Szolad31
10.29711610Szolad36
10.30020874Szolad1
11.11805738Collegno63
11.31026083Szolad37
11.39341915Collegno53
11.80897963Szolad6
12.50922460Szolad5
15.35938801Szolad8
16.17804067Szolad3
17.42612981Collegno121
17.49300432Collegno97
18.09335790Szolad23


51.6Collegno23
27.2Szolad27
14.8Szolad28
6.4Collegno47



my father below
Distance to:PonzanoK12b
5.67751706Collegno49
5.95225167Szolad28
6.08940063Collegno47
6.10329419Collegno23
6.37341353Collegno94
6.61260161Szolad45
7.21248917Collegno57
8.10768771Collegno102
8.39875586Szolad27
8.68036866Szolad18
9.25234565Collegno36
9.39199659Szolad43
10.01059439Szolad6
10.70744601Collegno63
10.81569693Szolad1
10.94461055Szolad31
11.36055456Szolad36
11.44666764Collegno53
11.56374939Szolad5
12.27215547Szolad37
14.14405175Szolad8
15.19414361Szolad3
16.54548881Collegno97
17.22175949Szolad23
18.43368655Szolad14

Isn't it clear? The ones you're not close to...

Same goes for the Scythians. You're closer to the ones which are more EEF admixed.

You may have more Central European admixture than most Italians, but you're still not Central European.
 
this abstract should be interesting in connection to the previews samples ......

Investigating population genomic continuity between the fifth and sixth century

The fourth through sixth centuries CE in Europe are commonly known as the Migration Period. Historical texts document that a group known as the Lombards, had settled in Pannonia (present-day western Hungary and surrounding regions) in the early sixth century, abandoned Pannonia in 568 CE and invaded Italy, ruling much of Italy for the next two centuries. We analyzed paleogenomic data from cemeteries associated with their migration and the communities that preceded them to test if and to what extent the population of Pannonia in the sixth century showed a change (possibly due to the arrival of the Lombards) and whether the migration/invasion into Italy may have occurred. We generated genomic data from 40 individuals from fifth century (pre-Lombard era) cemeteries from Hungary (Balatonszemes and Hács) and Italy (Bardonecchia and Lavazza). We analyzed these data alongside previously generated data from nearby sixth/seventh century (Lombard-era) cemeteries from Szólád (Hungary) and Collegno (Italy). We found that individuals from Bardonecchia and Lavazza predominantly had ancestry associated with contemporary southern Europeans, consistent with their geography. However, many of the individuals from Collegno possessed almost exclusively ancestry associated with contemporary northern Europeans, supporting the proposed Lombard migration into Italy during the sixth century. In contrast, we found that individuals from Balatonszemes and Hács possessed both northern and southern ancestry, as previously observed for Szólád. We analyzed the sharing of rare variants using medium (5-14x) coverage whole genomes to test whether this was representative of population continuity or migration between the fifth and sixth centuries.


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajpa.24023


p.s
hope for paper soon :unsure:

What, they didn't believe the prior paper that showed it? :)

As for the pre-Langobard invasion Hungarians that also seems to me obvious. What would have been interesting would have been a comparison of the Szolad Hungarians to pre-migration Hungarians from outside the area which was a Roman stronghold and then a Byzantine one for so long. All of their samples are from within that general area.

It's amazing to me how some of these population geneticists write their papers without first doing the most rudimentary historical research. We pointed out numerous times on this site that the inhabitants of Szolad might not have been representative of pre-migration of Hungary as a whole.

They also seem to not have done the kind of rudimentary comparisons we have done here, which show that people from that area of Hungary, of "mixed" northern and southern ancestry are damn close to north/north central Italians, like, might I say, me, who is within a genetic distance of 3 to some of them.

Also, why keep testing people from metropolitan Torino. If you're not careful with sample choices half of those people are going to be Southern Italians.

What shoemakers I'm sorry to say.
 

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