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Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

Angela said:
That's the danger with using samples from really isolated areas in population genetics studies. Yes, you're getting "old" and "unmixed" dna, but you may also be getting such "drifted" dna that it's telling you nothing really useful about population movements and changes.
Click to expand...
It also suggest that Greeks in Bovesia and generally in Calabria are the genetic remnants of Magna Grecia and that Salentine Greeks migrated later, let's say during the Byzantine and Middle Ages maybe even later after the Ottoman conquest.
 
bigsnake49 said:
It also suggest that Greeks in Bovesia and generally in Calabria are the genetic remnants of Magna Grecia and that Salentine Greeks migrated later, let's say during the Byzantine and Middle Ages maybe even later after the Ottoman conquest.
Click to expand...

I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.

All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.

olalde_pca.png
 
Angela said:
I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.

All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.

olalde_pca.png
Click to expand...
While it is true that we don't have ancient DNA for Magna Grecia, the fact that modern Salento Greeks are right on top of modern Southern Italians and Island Greeks and close to Continental Greeks, either means that they intermarried with Southern Italians and or migrated from the Greek Islands relatively late.
 
bigsnake49 said:
While it is true that we don't have ancient DNA for Magna Grecia, the fact that modern Salento Greeks are right on top of modern Southern Italians and Island Greeks and close to Continental Greeks, either means that they intermarried with Southern Italians and or migrated from the Greek Islands relatively late.
Click to expand...

Or, they're just local people living in villages which didn't give up the language that everyone in Southern Italy spoke at one time.

Some of my husband's Calabrian ancestors lived in villages which spoke a form of Greek until the 1600s.
 
Angela said:
Or, they're just local people living in villages which didn't give up the language that everyone in Southern Italy spoke at one time.

Some of my husband's Calabrian ancestors lived in villages which spoke a form of Greek until the 1600s.
Click to expand...

Here, I thought it was isolated to some remote villages, high in the mountains.
 
I don't know about any other studies on Griko but this is the result of an Apulian from Brindisi a city near Grecia Salentina:

Eurogens K15
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.88
2 West_Med 17.78
3 West_Asian 14.99
4 North_Sea 11.89
5 Atlantic 11.5
6 Baltic 9.45
7 Eastern_Euro 3.13
8 Red_Sea 2.51
9 Oceanian 1.39
10 Amerindian 0.49

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Central_Greek 4.16
2 East_Sicilian 5.98
3 Greek_Thessaly 6.07
4 South_Italian 6.73
5 Greek 6.88
6 Italian_Abruzzo 7
7 Ashkenazi 7.56
8 West_Sicilian 8.97
9 Tuscan 10.96
10 Italian_Jewish 11.45
11 Sephardic_Jewish 12.95
12 Algerian_Jewish 13.13
13 Bulgarian 13.49
14 Romanian 15.67
15 Tunisian_Jewish 16.62
16 North_Italian 16.73
17 Cyprian 17.13
18 Libyan_Jewish 17.24
19 Serbian 19.2
20 Turkish 19.44

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.9% Central_Greek + 33.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.32
2 53.6% Greek_Thessaly + 46.4% South_Italian @ 3.36
3 77.3% Greek_Thessaly + 22.7% Cyprian @ 3.56
4 94.8% Central_Greek + 5.2% Ukrainian @ 3.76
5 94.7% Central_Greek + 5.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.76
6 93.2% Central_Greek + 6.8% Moldavian @ 3.78
7 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Estonian @ 3.8
8 96% Central_Greek + 4% Lithuanian @ 3.8
9 93.9% Central_Greek + 6.1% Hungarian @ 3.8
10 95.3% Central_Greek + 4.7% South_Polish @ 3.83
11 88.9% Central_Greek + 11.1% Bulgarian @ 3.83
12 94.4% Central_Greek + 5.6% Croatian @ 3.86
13 90.9% Central_Greek + 9.1% Romanian @ 3.87
14 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Southwest_Russian @ 3.87
15 96.1% Central_Greek + 3.9% Finnish @ 3.88
16 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Polish @ 3.88
17 96.1% Central_Greek + 3.9% Belorussian @ 3.88
18 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.88
19 96.4% Central_Greek + 3.6% La_Brana-1 @ 3.9
20 96.3% Central_Greek + 3.7% Swedish @ 3.9

Dodecad K12b
# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 34
2 Atlantic_Med 26.6
3 North_European 17.8
4 Southwest_Asian 10.88
5 Gedrosia 7.58
6 Northwest_African 2.49
7 East_Asian 0.66

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.92
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.2
3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.52
4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 8.16
5 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 8.53
6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.57
7 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.6
8 Tuscan (HGDP) 12.05
9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 13
10 TSI30 (Metspalu) 13.17
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 15.37
12 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 17.3
13 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 17.82
14 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.52
15 Romanians (Behar) 18.81
16 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.62
17 Cypriots (Behar) 20.26
18 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.26
19 Turks (Behar) 22.06
20 Lebanese (Behar) 23.75

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65% Cypriots (Behar) + 35% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.58
2 66.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.2% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.72
3 66.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.8% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 1.74
4 66.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.1% English (Dodecad) @ 1.76
5 68.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.5% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 1.79
6 68% Cypriots (Behar) + 32% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 1.82
7 66.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.5% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 1.84
8 68.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.6% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 1.89
9 67.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.3% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 1.94
10 68.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 1.94
11 67.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.4% British (Dodecad) @ 2.17
12 76% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 24% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 2.2
13 67.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.8% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.24
14 77.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 22.6% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 2.48
15 92.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.1% Brahui (HGDP) @ 2.53
16 92% Greek (Dodecad) + 8% Makrani (HGDP) @ 2.58
17 74.6% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 25.4% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.59
18 92.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.6% Balochi (HGDP) @ 2.65
19 76.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 23.3% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.66
20 88.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.8% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.69

Seems very close to Greek Mainlanders. He is very close to my results as well.
 
Angela said:
It is today, but that wasn't always the case.
Click to expand...

XRR2b1g.png


[FONT=&quot]Loud, G. A.; Metcalfe, Alex (2002). [/FONT]The society of Norman Italy. BRILL. pp. 215–216. ISBN 9789004125414. In Calabria, a Greek-speaking population existed in Aspromonte (even until recently, a small Greek-language community survived around Bova) and, even in the thirteenth century, this extended into the plain beyond Aspromonte and into present provinces of Catanzaro and Cosenza.
 
Angela said:
XRR2b1g.png


Loud, G. A.; Metcalfe, Alex (2002). The society of Norman Italy. BRILL. pp. 215–216. ISBN 9789004125414. In Calabria, a Greek-speaking population existed in Aspromonte (even until recently, a small Greek-language community survived around Bova) and, even in the thirteenth century, this extended into the plain beyond Aspromonte and into present provinces of Catanzaro and Cosenza.
Click to expand...

I love it, Aspromonte, a mashup of Aspro - Greek for White and Monte - Italian for mountain :).
 
bigsnake49 said:
I love it, Aspromonte, a mashup of Aspro - Greek for White and Monte - Italian for mountain :).
Click to expand...
... not so fast :)

Aspromonte = Rough Mountain

because Aspro in Italian means “sour, harsh, rough, bitter uneasy, ...”

I guess it depends on who you ask.
 
Salento said:
... not so fast :)

Aspromonte = Rough Mountain

because Aspro in Italian means “sour, harsh, rough, bitter uneasy, ...”

I guess it depends on who you ask.
Click to expand...

But are they white? :laughing:

BTW doesn't Italian put adjectives after the subject so should it not have been Monteaspro like Montenegro?
 
Should Would Could ...
It doesn’t matter.

i can say:
Grecia Antica
Antica Grecia

Sometimes I can say whatever sounds better to me (orecchiabile)
 
Salento said:
Should Would Could ...
It doesn’t matter.

i can say:
Grecia Antica
Antica Grecia

Sometimes I can say whatever sounds better to me (orecchiabile)
Click to expand...

In Greek it is preferred to have the adjective before the subject but it can be be the other way around if it is used for emphasis.
 
I read about the Griko people years ago and had the chance to drop by Salento while touring southern Italy. Disappointingly all of the Griko people seem to now speak only Italian, with the older Griko language exclusively maintained by the older generation as an in-home dialect. I hypothesize they would still show up as mainly Greek with some Italian and Turkish on genetic tests.
 
some more Salento (me :) results:

3Rj4x8p.jpg


Rh47Keh.jpg



5IQx96f.jpg


lObQOdL.jpg


gJsiSzI.jpg

NjZtnZc.jpg


dM7UJc7.jpg

(undetermined) That’s where I get my Pizzica Superpower/ Taranta Senses!

CZF9RlM.jpg


hCjaz2v.jpg



FS46uDn.jpg
 
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Angela said:
I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.

All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.

olalde_pca.png
Click to expand...
Angela this Classical Greek sample seem to be more southern shifted than the Myceanean ones or is it just me?
 
ihype02 said:
Angela this Classical Greek sample seem to be more southern shifted than the Myceanean ones or is it just me?
Click to expand...

That's interesting.

Looking at the list of Empuries samples we have, only one is listed as Roman Era, and the sample is French like. Maybe we don't have all the Roman Era samples?
Of the ones we have, only two plot in that general area.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB000, align: right"]9.81282834[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9600, align: right"]10.58188547[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8300, align: right"]11.13472945[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6500, align: right"]12.01633658[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5D00, align: right"]12.25316808[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4D00, align: right"]12.72192065[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4900, align: right"]12.85049439[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3600, align: right"]13.41035421[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Maybe it's this one?

Or this?
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5400, align: right"]12.51731201[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3000, align: right"]13.60231966[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1C00, align: right"]14.18309521[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1800, align: right"]14.29497814[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1300, align: right"]14.44845666[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0C00, align: right"]14.65609041[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0025, align: right"]16.09613944[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I wonder if there's a difference in quality? Why, otherwise, do they talk about only one such sample?

As for "Roman Era" samples, as I said, we only have one, and the sample is French like.

If Duarte reads this perhaps he'll check if there are other "Roman Era" samples from Empuries.

Also, I'm not sure where the Mycenaeans plot there, although I would guess probably within the Aegean Bronze Age cluster somewhere.

One of the flaws in Dodecad 12b, and all calculators have them, is that it has difficulty distinguishing between Southern Italians/Aegean Greeks/European Jews.
 
Johane Derite: It has, I was in Sicily this past Summer. The Albanians that settled in Sicily, and the rest of Italy, were Eastern Orthodox in union with the Patriarch of Constantinopile. Their Liturgy thus is the Byzantine-Rite. In Sicily, and rest of Italy, they re-entered communion with Rome and still follow the Byzantine-Rite Litugry. The Eparchy of Piana Degli Albanesi part of the Italian-Albanaian Catholic Church and follows the classical Byzantine Rite in its Liturgy using both Greek and Albanian languages. The towns in Sicily were this is still used are Contessa Entellina, Santa Christina Gela and Palazzo Adriano (Which I visited since my Mothers father was born there, baptized in Roman-Latin Rite Parish). My Mothers Great Grandfather however, on her mothers side was baptized in the Byzantine Rite Church which was the opposite side the town square.

The Eparchy of Lungro in Calabria is where the Bishop governs the Byzatine Rite for all Italians of Albanian ancestry from Calabria to Naples. Their is also a Monastery in Rome where Eastern Rite Bishop governs the Italo-Albanians around Rome and surrounding Regions there.
 
Last edited:
Palermo Trapani said:
Johane Derite: It has, I was in Sicily this past Summer. The Albanians that settled in Sicily, and the rest of Italy, were Eastern Orthodox in union with the Patriarch of Constantinopile. Their Liturgy thus is the Byzantine-Rite. In Sicily, and rest of Italy, they re-entered communion with Rome and still follow the Byzantine-Rite Litugry. The Eparchy of Piana Degli Albanesi part of the Italian-Albanaian Catholic Church and follows the classical Byzantine Rite in its Liturgy using both Greek and Albanian languages. The towns in Sicily were this is still used are Contessa Entellina, Santa Christina Gela and Palazzo Adriano (Which I visited since my Mothers father was born there, baptized in Roman-Latin Rite Parish). My Mothers Great Grandfather however, on her mothers side was baptized in the Byzantine Rite Church which was the opposite side the town square.

The Eparchy of Lungro in Calabria is where the Bishop governs the Byzatine Rite for all Italians of Albanian ancestry from Calabria to Naples. Their is also a Monastery in Rome where Eastern Rite Bishop governs the Italo-Albanians around Rome and surrounding Regions there.
Click to expand...

Very interesting, thanks for the information. Do you know if there are any publications or academic papers dealing with this issue specifically?
 
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