Arabo-Persian Gulf Basin possible homeland of Basal Eurasians?

[Jovialis]

Having the same admixture or clustering with a population, does not automatically mean looking like this population.

Some strange examples are early Neolithic samples from Greece who resemble Hunters in their appearance or Globular Amphora samples who resembles also a more Hunter-like appearance, despite of their farmer-like admixture. This could be due to early admixture with HG populations.
For some neolithic samples the actual calculators show no HG admixture, others can find it.

I came out as northern German by most calculators, my Y haplogorup is I1, but my appearance does not resemble this:

Yamnaya(73%) LBK Alföld (73%)
Hittite(70%) Anatolia HG (70%) Iron Gates HG (70%)

My wife (Danish by calculators) fits much better:

VikingsRus (76%)
Maglemose(75%) GlobularAmphora (75%)

She has dark blonde, straight hair, long face, upturned nose,blue eyes and light but little darker skin, very dolicocephalic.
Me on the opposite: Brown wavy hair, broad face, hooked nose, hazel eyes, very light skin, brachycephalic.

Trait analysis for Natufians:

-Round face, not much distance between nose and mouth
-European/African Eyelids, not Asian
-Upturned nose like in many Africans, but slim
-Thin lips
-Light brown or hazel eyes
-Mid brown skin
-Curly or wavy dark hair

Perhaps similar to Somali/Ethiopian?
But almost half of all SNPs for trait prediction are missing.

Ancient Egyptian samples are rare, I am just converting some fastq to bam but the whole quality of Egyptian samples I could find is low, perhaps too low for analysis. Lets see in a few days.

What study are they from? I would be interested to see them when they're done processing.

Also, what tool are you using for FASTQ to BAM conversion? I would like to know a good one to use.

 

[Jovialis]

BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2134,0.83,0,8.24,0,15.48,0,0,6.5,32.25,0,36.69,0
BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2888,0.23,0,10.62,0,15.29,0,0,6.3,32.71,0,34.85,0
BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2911,1.61,0.82,7.99,0.95,12.77,0,0.32,6.44,33.51,0.06,35.53,0

This is from VJ Schuenemann et al. 2017

They were ascertainable with BAM files using the beta version of WGSextract.

 

[Riverman]

I’ve read the supplementary data from the Iberomaurasian study. All seven Taforalt individuals lacked the genes for light skin, but they carried the genes for Europid straight hair. So, the Iberomaurasians were most likely dark skinned, albeit with straight hair.

We can't rely too much on that, because we don't know the old genetic architecture. Its probably safe to assume they were significantly darker than modern Europeans, but I wouldn't describe it as "dark skinned", because this could be interpretated like if they had Subsaharan skin tones, which is very, very unlikely. Rather they were just darker than modern Europeans, probably somewhat more in the lighter to medium South Asian spectrum. But I would really wonder if they would have been significantly darker than Khoisan people.

 

[Jovialis]

Having the same admixture or clustering with a population, does not automatically mean looking like this population.

I'd say the opposite is also true, looking like a population doesn't mean you are genetically similar them. For example the Onge may look like SSA, but are massively distant to them in genetic affinity. In fact, SSA are some of the most distant to them in the world.

Dodecad Globe 13

ONG-1,5.93,0.83,0.83,0.72,1.24,28.85,0.25,11.64,0.18,0 .58,1.15,45.31,2.49
ONG-4,4.55,1.45,0.62,0.6,1.36,28.62,0.22,12.66,0,1.31, 1.45,44.88,2.29
ONG-8,4.46,1.18,0.74,0.52,0.77,28.16,0.77,12.07,0.93,1 .06,0.57,46.14,2.63
ONG-9,4.52,0.78,1.21,0.64,1.65,29.5,0.5,11.78,0.64,0.5 ,0.69,45.32,2.26
ONG-12,5.15,0.58,0.77,0.93,2,29.04,0.2,12.12,0,0,2,45. 01,2.19
ONG-14,4.45,0.07,1.01,0.54,1.32,29.63,1.63,12.27,0.38, 0.61,1.36,44.43,2.3

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]ONG-1[/TH]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D8, align: right"]21.35590785[/TD]
[TD]Juang_Ch[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E2, align: right"]21.64404768[/TD]
[TD]BONDA_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F2, align: right"]22.12213371[/TD]
[TD]Gadaba_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8900FF, align: right"]25.96040832[/TD]
[TD]Kharia_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7300FF, align: right"]26.60978767[/TD]
[TD]Savara_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3800FF, align: right"]28.35296810[/TD]
[TD]Khasi_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3500FF, align: right"]28.44420503[/TD]
[TD]Ho_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0C00FF, align: right"]29.63988529[/TD]
[TD]Mawasi_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.76736583[/TD]
[TD]Dhurwa_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.69382905[/TD]
[TD]Brahmins_from_Uttaranchal_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.30118883[/TD]
[TD]Bhunjia_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.34412692[/TD]
[TD]ASUR_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.09335419[/TD]
[TD]Santhal_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]36.56860402[/TD]
[TD]Gond_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]36.92130550[/TD]
[TD]Nihali_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]39.90219042[/TD]
[TD]Bengali_M[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]41.87749754[/TD]
[TD]Chenchus_M[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]42.53244409[/TD]
[TD]Lambadi_M[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]42.56527693[/TD]
[TD]Muslim_M[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]42.85728410[/TD]
[TD]MALAYAN[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]43.22252653[/TD]
[TD]Cochin_Jews[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]43.41274928[/TD]
[TD]Dusadh_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]44.01898227[/TD]
[TD]Tharus_M[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]44.37534000[/TD]
[TD]Uttar_Pradesh_Scheduled_Caste_M[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]44.43897839[/TD]
[TD]Dharkars_M[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]44.71369812[/TD]
[TD]Kol_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]44.78167929[/TD]
[TD]Kanjars_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]44.92501308[/TD]
[TD]Kurmi_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]45.24920773[/TD]
[TD]Hakkipikki_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]45.40840010[/TD]
[TD]Pulliyar_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]45.44692289[/TD]
[TD]Tamil_Nadu_Scheduled_Caste_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]45.87446784[/TD]
[TD]SAKILLI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]45.88739260[/TD]
[TD]Meghawal_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.02962959[/TD]
[TD]Iyer_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.03714587[/TD]
[TD]Paniya_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.23908304[/TD]
[TD]Burmanese_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.29558078[/TD]
[TD]INS30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.30251397[/TD]
[TD]Kshatriya_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.32853117[/TD]
[TD]Garo_Ch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.35196652[/TD]
[TD]Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.49183584[/TD]
[TD]Iyengar_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.56652016[/TD]
[TD]North_Kannadi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.64929581[/TD]
[TD]Chamar_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.91128649[/TD]
[TD]Kurumba_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.92644031[/TD]
[TD]Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]47.04045918[/TD]
[TD]Indian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]47.18324703[/TD]
[TD]Piramalai_Kallars_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]48.09815797[/TD]
[TD]Bnei_Menashe_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]48.22043965[/TD]
[TD]Meena_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]48.29636425[/TD]
[TD]GIH30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]48.53648937[/TD]
[TD]ColouredWellington_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]48.58724936[/TD]
[TD]Velamas_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]49.60591497[/TD]
[TD]Uygur[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]49.89894588[/TD]
[TD]Hazara[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]51.81828635[/TD]
[TD]Burusho[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]52.00125768[/TD]
[TD]PANIYA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]53.63053981[/TD]
[TD]Jatt_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]54.12087213[/TD]
[TD]Uzbeks[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]55.34978591[/TD]
[TD]Sindhi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]57.44119428[/TD]
[TD]Pathan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]57.98276296[/TD]
[TD]Kyrgyz_Bishkek_Ho[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]60.58269390[/TD]
[TD]Tajiks_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]61.73272066[/TD]
[TD]Cambodians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]61.87904977[/TD]
[TD]Tu[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]62.81847499[/TD]
[TD]MAS30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]62.94371136[/TD]
[TD]Mongola[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]63.51598854[/TD]
[TD]Turkmens_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]63.60738007[/TD]
[TD]Mongol[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]63.79752973[/TD]
[TD]Xibo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]64.04114927[/TD]
[TD]Naga_M[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]64.30712869[/TD]
[TD]Altai[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]64.92536330[/TD]
[TD]Hezhen[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]65.83563473[/TD]
[TD]Nogais_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]65.92563083[/TD]
[TD]Naxi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]66.23326053[/TD]
[TD]Daur[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]66.58028837[/TD]
[TD]Yizu[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]66.90289082[/TD]
[TD]JPT30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]66.98167511[/TD]
[TD]Japanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]67.50846465[/TD]
[TD]Korean_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]67.90088954[/TD]
[TD]Balochi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]68.48816540[/TD]
[TD]Brahui[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]68.67991555[/TD]
[TD]Kalash[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]68.86882314[/TD]
[TD]Makrani[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]69.99333397[/TD]
[TD]Oroqen[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]70.11047568[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Aydin_Ho[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]70.47104937[/TD]
[TD]Tuva[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]70.73077689[/TD]
[TD]Puerto_Rican[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]71.22180003[/TD]
[TD]Buryat[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]71.45803524[/TD]
[TD]Yemenese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]71.90605538[/TD]
[TD]CHB30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]71.96330176[/TD]
[TD]Chinese_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]72.54786558[/TD]
[TD]PUR30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]72.64956160[/TD]
[TD]Iranians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]72.69172443[/TD]
[TD]Turks[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.04188387[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.20116666[/TD]
[TD]AthabaskHD4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.23135121[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Kayseri_Ho[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.36070338[/TD]
[TD]CLM30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.39905176[/TD]
[TD]Iranian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.58598236[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.79447676[/TD]
[TD]Kumyks_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.84611567[/TD]
[TD]Egyptans[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.85034055[/TD]
[TD]Tujia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]73.90931470[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Istanbul_Ho[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]74.05059622[/TD]
[TD]Colombian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]74.10301478[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]74.15903721[/TD]
[TD]Lahu[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]74.17481244[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]74.17913992[/TD]
[TD]Syrians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]74.24909966[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]74.26022354[/TD]
[TD]Dominican[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]74.81831861[/TD]
[TD]Jordanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]74.90613326[/TD]
[TD]CHD30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.20533758[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Cypriot_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.37408573[/TD]
[TD]Greek_D[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.51269297[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_D[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.51899629[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
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[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.54098755[/TD]
[TD]Palestinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.91792147[/TD]
[TD]Romanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.94129838[/TD]
[TD]Kurds_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.96969659[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_D[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]75.98528015[/TD]
[TD]Moroccans[/TD]
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[TR]
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[TD]MEX30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.00609712[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
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[TR]
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[TD]Uzbekistan_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
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[TD]Miaozu[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.17375401[/TD]
[TD]Kurd_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.18300860[/TD]
[TD]Sandawe_He[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.24146378[/TD]
[TD]ColouredColesberg_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.25716229[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.29973001[/TD]
[TD]Han[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.37366562[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.57301613[/TD]
[TD]Balkars_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.64180843[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.65159359[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.65659006[/TD]
[TD]Aleut[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.77042920[/TD]
[TD]Selkup[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]76.89160422[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]77.05124788[/TD]
[TD]North_Ossetians_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]77.09970687[/TD]
[TD]CHS30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]77.41988633[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]77.46625588[/TD]
[TD]She[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]77.61599577[/TD]
[TD]Adygei[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]77.67266443[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]77.72437713[/TD]
[TD]KHV30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]77.79177849[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.00763296[/TD]
[TD]Druze[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.06624623[/TD]
[TD]Bedouin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.09165640[/TD]
[TD]Chuvashs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.10439680[/TD]
[TD]Chechens_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.25112651[/TD]
[TD]Hadza_He[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.28695166[/TD]
[TD]Brazilian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.37067564[/TD]
[TD]Iranian_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.47359301[/TD]
[TD]Serb_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.59503038[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.87008812[/TD]
[TD]Canarias_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]78.90897794[/TD]
[TD]Lezgins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]79.03628787[/TD]
[TD]Iraq_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]79.04476453[/TD]
[TD]Ecuadorian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]79.06762169[/TD]
[TD]Samaritan_All[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]79.48766445[/TD]
[TD]Azerbaijan_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]79.63642885[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]79.63760921[/TD]
[TD]Georgia_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]79.65438343[/TD]
[TD]Ket[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]79.67928715[/TD]
[TD]Assyrian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]79.76157471[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]80.19626425[/TD]
[TD]Galicia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]80.23523416[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]80.32754696[/TD]
[TD]Armenians_15_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]80.58022586[/TD]
[TD]NAN_Melanesian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]80.74236063[/TD]
[TD]Murcia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]80.92180670[/TD]
[TD]Armenian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]80.98853499[/TD]
[TD]Baleares_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]81.17500108[/TD]
[TD]MKK30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]81.37514854[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]81.62066405[/TD]
[TD]Dai[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]81.80350115[/TD]
[TD]Armenians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]81.86337887[/TD]
[TD]AFAR_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]81.94646301[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.02968243[/TD]
[TD]CDX30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.07677382[/TD]
[TD]TYGRAY_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.13803504[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.20898248[/TD]
[TD]Spaniards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.38496708[/TD]
[TD]French_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.55593740[/TD]
[TD]Cataluna_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.59320069[/TD]
[TD]Hungarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.67857522[/TD]
[TD]Austrian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.68144169[/TD]
[TD]Valencia_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.68406618[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.76444164[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.89368372[/TD]
[TD]AMHARA_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]82.98660615[/TD]
[TD]Yemen_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]83.12817092[/TD]
[TD]Cantabria_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]83.25617575[/TD]
[TD]Ethiopian_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]83.45753890[/TD]
[TD]Ethiopians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]83.51413533[/TD]
[TD]Aragon_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]83.69513009[/TD]
[TD]WOLAYTA_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]83.80901384[/TD]
[TD]Georgian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]84.11738703[/TD]
[TD]Abhkasians_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]84.27679871[/TD]
[TD]OROMO_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]84.53592609[/TD]
[TD]Dutch_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]84.53933286[/TD]
[TD]Mbuti_Pygmies[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]84.69044102[/TD]
[TD]Khwe_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]84.78106392[/TD]
[TD]Mixed_Germanic_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]85.20868970[/TD]
[TD]CEU30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]85.68805518[/TD]
[TD]Ukrainian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]85.72990610[/TD]
[TD]German_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]85.81014392[/TD]
[TD]Cornwall_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]85.91956005[/TD]
[TD]Argyll_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.03290533[/TD]
[TD]Kent_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.10098025[/TD]
[TD]English_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.16126044[/TD]
[TD]British_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.20338044[/TD]
[TD]Koryak[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.28063978[/TD]
[TD]Georgians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.33127359[/TD]
[TD]Saudis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.47616319[/TD]
[TD]British_Isles_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.58079926[/TD]
[TD]Orcadian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.71685419[/TD]
[TD]Irish_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.87610028[/TD]
[TD]Mordovians_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]86.99586657[/TD]
[TD]Orkney_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]87.07618963[/TD]
[TD]WestGreenland[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]87.15015089[/TD]
[TD]Athabask[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]87.25259194[/TD]
[TD]Ukranians_Y[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]87.57940854[/TD]
[TD]SOMALI_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]87.60622581[/TD]
[TD]Pais_Vasco_1KG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]87.68478089[/TD]
[TD]Dolgan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]87.80438941[/TD]
[TD]Somali_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]87.86676732[/TD]
[TD]Russian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]88.04258515[/TD]
[TD]Yukagir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]88.73250137[/TD]
[TD]Russian_B[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]88.94009669[/TD]
[TD]French_Basque[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]88.96370496[/TD]
[TD]Mixed_Slav_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]89.02184451[/TD]
[TD]SUDANESE_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]89.34405856[/TD]
[TD]Swedish_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]89.37893935[/TD]
[TD]Norwegian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]89.54605966[/TD]
[TD]Polish_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]89.90388646[/TD]
[TD]ANUAK_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]89.90496538[/TD]
[TD]Russian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]90.84423372[/TD]
[TD]Yakut[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]90.99933406[/TD]
[TD]ARICULTIVATOR_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]91.17157890[/TD]
[TD]Belorussian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]91.43891294[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]92.42361603[/TD]
[TD]Biaka_Pygmies[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]92.95094835[/TD]
[TD]ARIBLACKSMITH_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]93.10634135[/TD]
[TD]Bantu_S.E._Tswana[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]93.21023978[/TD]
[TD]LWK30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]93.40608545[/TD]
[TD]African_American_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]93.94731928[/TD]
[TD]Karretjie_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]94.00741886[/TD]
[TD]GUMUZ_Pa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]94.20405936[/TD]
[TD]Bantu_N.E.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]94.25688728[/TD]
[TD]Chukchi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]94.56805380[/TD]
[TD]Khomani_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]94.57244207[/TD]
[TD]Evenk[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]94.68674036[/TD]
[TD]Lithuanian_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]95.00221471[/TD]
[TD]Bantu_S.E._Pedi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]95.03353513[/TD]
[TD]FIN30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]95.11781537[/TD]
[TD]Xun_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]95.37331283[/TD]
[TD]Finnish_D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]95.71640821[/TD]
[TD]SEBantu_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]96.00754554[/TD]
[TD]Bantu_S.E._S.Sotho[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]96.16588168[/TD]
[TD]Nama_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]97.81553455[/TD]
[TD]Lithuanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]97.97094876[/TD]
[TD]ASW30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]98.07043795[/TD]
[TD]GuiGhanaKgal_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]98.66151631[/TD]
[TD]PEL30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]99.05175819[/TD]
[TD]Bantu_S.E._Zulu[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]99.57570386[/TD]
[TD]Nganassan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]103.63088729[/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]103.65823074[/TD]
[TD]SWBantu_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]103.69877916[/TD]
[TD]ACB30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]105.81773386[/TD]
[TD]Bantu_S.W._Ovambo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]106.13830977[/TD]
[TD]Bantu_S.W._Herero[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]107.74340258[/TD]
[TD]San_He[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]109.18960024[/TD]
[TD]Mandenka[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]110.87003563[/TD]
[TD]Pima[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]110.88708130[/TD]
[TD]Maya[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]113.49626778[/TD]
[TD]Yoruba[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]113.58415735[/TD]
[TD]Colombians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]113.58415735[/TD]
[TD]Karitiana[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]113.58415735[/TD]
[TD]Surui[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]113.58415735[/TD]
[TD]YRI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]113.68096059[/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]113.68096059[/TD]
[TD]Juhoansi_Sch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]114.15498587[/TD]
[TD]EastGreenland
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Jovialis]

^^I believe this is driven by convergent evolution. If it can happen between completely different species in completely different time periods, it can happen between modern humans living in the same time period.

 

[Jovialis]

^^I believe this is driven by convergent evolution. If it can happen between completely different species in completely different time periods, it can happen between modern humans living in the same time period.

Razib Khan also makes the same example here:

https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/convergent-evolution-happens

I also think this is why despite only receiving a small of amount of DNA from Neanderthals, modern Europeans have some similar traits to them that evolved independently. Nevertheless, some phenotypic traits were indeed inherited from them. My brother for example is shorter than me, because he inherited traits for Neanderthal spinal cord, at least according to 23andme.

 

[Doggerland]

I'd say the opposite is also true, looking like a population doesn't mean you are genetically similar them. For example the Onge may look like SSA, but are massively distant to them in genetic affinity. In fact, SSA are some of the most distant to them in the world.

Yes that's true, but I think more in that sense that our awareness of different traits we've learned from our childhood is blinding us. A special trait we note and automatically associating with a population like the coarse hair of Andaman Islanders and very dark skin with Africans.

On the genetic level of traits Andaman Islanders don't posses so much similar traits to Africans. The highest matches I found for them where modern South Asians (72%) and Australians (72%). All Africans is only (65%) Bantu (62%).
But I must note, that I don't have any Samoan or other Oceanian samples ready for analysis to date but they can be found on ENA by using the names on the map:https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/51.000/2.000 I think they could also make good matches to Andaman but who knows.

There is also the thing with some things like single SNPs and their Allele can alter whole look of a person, making other SNPs “less visible” like with red hair SNPs or Samoan special SNP for developing bulky statue, or the neanderthal skull shape SNP rs72931809.
Maybe the Andaman Islanders posess a special trait which makes them look more SSA, but perhaps it is our own learned awareness of human facial shapes, that makes them look so.
I remember a TV documentary about Afro-Australians(Africans in Australia) and there where aboriginal Australians in the documentary saying "They are people of our land!" and i just facepalmed.

 

[Doggerland]

What study are they from? I would be interested to see them when they're done processing.

Also, what tool are you using for FASTQ to BAM conversion? I would like to know a good one to use.

Converter:https://github.com/teepean/SRA_FASTQ-to-BAM-Kit(But I am using an older version from 2015 because I had problemswith the new one)

The converter can be used by using the windows console, I don't know how it is called in English, in German it is called “Eingabeaufforderung” You have to do following:

1. D:
2. cd D:\SRA_FASTQ to BAMKit
3.fq2bam ERR1937833_2.fastq

And it starts. Depending on the file size it can take from many hours to days, even a week.
If a file is named “blabla.fastq.gz” you have to delete the “.gz” like this: “blabla.fastq” to make it work.
There are often bam files on ENA, but sometimes they are damaged and you have to convert fastq to bam by yourself, or sadly whole upload bam and fastq are damaged and cannot be used.

Egyptian DNA files:

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB15464

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB20294

 

[Angela]

Having the same admixture or clustering with a population, does not automatically mean looking like this population.

Some strange examples are early Neolithic samples from Greece who resemble Hunters in their appearance or Globular Amphora samples who resembles also a more Hunter-like appearance, despite of their farmer-like admixture. This could be due to early admixture with HG populations.
For some neolithic samples the actual calculators show no HG admixture, others can find it.

I came out as northern German by most calculators, my Y haplogorup is I1, but my appearance does not resemble this:

Yamnaya(73%) LBK Alföld (73%)
Hittite(70%) Anatolia HG (70%) Iron Gates HG (70%)

My wife (Danish by calculators) fits much better:

VikingsRus (76%)
Maglemose(75%) GlobularAmphora (75%)

She has dark blonde, straight hair, long face, upturned nose,blue eyes and light but little darker skin, very dolicocephalic.
Me on the opposite: Brown wavy hair, broad face, hooked nose, hazel eyes, very light skin, brachycephalic.

Trait analysis for Natufians:

-Round face, not much distance between nose and mouth
-European/African Eyelids, not Asian
-Upturned nose like in many Africans, but slim
-Thin lips
-Light brown or hazel eyes
-Mid brown skin
-Curly or wavy dark hair

Perhaps similar to Somali/Ethiopian?
But almost half of all SNPs for trait prediction are missing.

Ancient Egyptian samples are rare, I am just converting some fastq to bam but the whole quality of Egyptian samples I could find is low, perhaps too low for analysis. Lets see in a few days.

Could you tell us the source for your analysis of Natufian traits?

The skulls with which I'm familiar are the plastered ones, the most famous of which are the ones from Jericho, and date to 9700 years ago, which is still within the frame for Natufian, although one label I saw was PPN.

I think this one very much resembles Nefertiti, whom I think was absolutely stunning.

Here are some more:

Nothing can be deduced from the head shape because I think most of the archaeologists are agreed that there are signs of head binding in infancy and childhood.

I don't see a round face in this case, nor a turned up nose nor a hooked nose, which I think is more Caucasus related in terms of ancestry. That long, straight nose with a broader tip married to a small mouth was around during the Classical Era, and is still around now. I have a version of it myself, as does the English actor Richard Armitage.

He likes his elegant profile; he does these shots a lot.

 

[Doggerland]

There are some things to note, like the skulls are covered with a clay mask. They don't represent the natural look of the people when they where alive. Second problem is that there are not much samples from Natufians, so if someone in the population looked different, this cannot be noticed.

The traits I described for Natufians are based on available samples (ENA) and if there where more samples one day, the whole look could be somewhat different, because more SNPs can be used. For example, the SNPs for nostril size are missing, we only know that they had an upturned, slim nose and not a straight or hooked nose, or a broad one. It could also be, that they had broad nostrils, or slim, we don't know. There are also many SNPs about the facial shape missing, but available data suggest a more round face shape, in that sense that the mouth is closer to the Vomer Bone, a larger distance would suggest a longer looking face.

For example:

Long face: https://www.milkandblush.com/wordpr...s/2014/03/Hairstyles-for-Long-Faces-Ombre.jpg
Round face: http://hairstyles-galaxy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Effortless-Updo-for-Round-Face-Shapes.jpg

But we should not forget that there also could be people with straight nose or hooked nose in Natufian population, but we have no samples from them. For today's populations its easy, you can look at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/and get population data for every single SNP, how common they are. But if you are using ancient populations you don't have many samples and can only use that what is available, often its only one sample.

The SNPs im using are my “Trade Secret” and I developed this composition over some years. They are selected to be compatible with 23andme and ftdna data, to compare them to actual living people and populations.
For example I'm not testing for special traits like red hair, because they are too rare in ancient populations. I also selected the traits for ethnic divergence, SNPs that are found to be same alleles in almost every population with 90% or more, are excluded, because they are not ideal for showing differences.
They can all be found on GWAS Catalog and in some studies on the Internet.
The eye colour prediction is based on the SNPs from Gedmatch eye colour prediction feature, the feature is no more available on Gedmatch itself any more.

The whole idea was based on this post on Eurogenes:https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/07/genome-wide-variants-of-eurasian-facial.html
I wanted to have acalculator like this, but it never came, so I decided to make my own.

I can imagine that someone else will come up with the idea of doing something like that at some point, maybe also to make money with it. There are already many services in the Internet that determine people's DNA traits.

 

[kingdavid]

The phenotip description in my mind from the snps you mention sound logical...

P s
What is the main snp for nose
Shape ?

 

[Angela]

There are some things to note, like the skulls are covered with a clay mask. They don't represent the natural look of the people when they where alive. Second problem is that there are not much samples from Natufians, so if someone in the population looked different, this cannot be noticed.

The traits I described for Natufians are based on available samples (ENA) and if there where more samples one day, the whole look could be somewhat different, because more SNPs can be used. For example, the SNPs for nostril size are missing, we only know that they had an upturned, slim nose and not a straight or hooked nose, or a broad one. It could also be, that they had broad nostrils, or slim, we don't know. There are also many SNPs about the facial shape missing, but available data suggest a more round face shape, in that sense that the mouth is closer to the Vomer Bone, a larger distance would suggest a longer looking face.

For example:

Long face: https://www.milkandblush.com/wordpr...s/2014/03/Hairstyles-for-Long-Faces-Ombre.jpg
Round face: http://hairstyles-galaxy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Effortless-Updo-for-Round-Face-Shapes.jpg

But we should not forget that there also could be people with straight nose or hooked nose in Natufian population, but we have no samples from them. For today's populations its easy, you can look at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/and get population data for every single SNP, how common they are. But if you are using ancient populations you don't have many samples and can only use that what is available, often its only one sample.

The SNPs im using are my “Trade Secret” and I developed this composition over some years. They are selected to be compatible with 23andme and ftdna data, to compare them to actual living people and populations.
For example I'm not testing for special traits like red hair, because they are too rare in ancient populations. I also selected the traits for ethnic divergence, SNPs that are found to be same alleles in almost every population with 90% or more, are excluded, because they are not ideal for showing differences.
They can all be found on GWAS Catalog and in some studies on the Internet.
The eye colour prediction is based on the SNPs from Gedmatch eye colour prediction feature, the feature is no more available on Gedmatch itself any more.

The whole idea was based on this post on Eurogenes:https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/07/genome-wide-variants-of-eurasian-facial.html
I wanted to have acalculator like this, but it never came, so I decided to make my own.

I can imagine that someone else will come up with the idea of doing something like that at some point, maybe also to make money with it. There are already many services in the Internet that determine people's DNA traits.

I already said that the skull shape itself is unknown because there is evidence of head binding in infancy.

A clay mask or wax one or plaster ones, as in the ones which were done throughout European history, are the best indication of what people looked like, not a program based on a very small number of snps, particularly as you don't list the snps you are using, so their reliability can't be checked, and with such old samples we're not going to get all the snps.

No one had to tell me this is Abraham Lincoln and George Washington:

This is clearly what Dante looked like. Chiellini has the nose; I guess the genes are still floating around Toscana.

Henri IV's death mask compared to a painting of him. It's undeniably the same man.

Lenin:

In addition, there are people in the same area who look a lot like those masks.

So, I'll stick with the masks.

 

[American]

I skimmed this preprint a couple months ago and I'm not sure I'm convinced. I don't think their findings are enough to warrant overturning our current understanding of admixture in the region. The Gulf has significantly more ANE admixture than Yemen.

I bet the Basal Eurasian ancestry in Arabians is why they look so different from West Asians from farther north. When I first met Saudis, Yemenis, and Yemeni Jews, I was surprised by how rare the large, aquiline noses I'm used to seeing in the Middle East were among them. In fact I would say especially their women have upturned noses more frequently than hooked (though women of all ethnicities trend towards that more than men). Henry Field published anthropometric craniofacial measurements on a number of groups from Iraq and Iran and it's interesting to compare the Bedouin, Marsh Arabs, Mandeans, Iraqi soldiers, etc.

In the genetic source populations used online (esp. in GEDmatch) there are populations called "Bedouin A" and "Bedouin B", both appear to be Negev Bedouin from southern Israel. The Bedouin B in particular always scores ~90% "Southwest Asian" or "Near Eastern" or whatever on every calculator used.

This paper by Deven Vyas (GENETIC INFERENCES ON HUMAN EVOLUTIONARY HISTORY IN SOUTHERN ARABIA AND THE LEVANT) points to "BedouinB" and Yemenis from the Mahra governorate as the likely descendants of the Basal Eurasians. They consistently have the highest levels of Arabian Peninsula-specific ancestry that is found admixed into other populations (as "Neolithic"-related in Euros for instance).

Then there are the figures from Ain Ghazal in Jordan. This is from I believe the PPNC culture. Note how they all have cute little upturned noses.
View attachment 12802

This is from the 1960s and compares the anthropometric variables of inhabitants of two places in northern and southern Iran, respectively. It can be expected that the northern population would be representative of more ANE and CHG admixture, and the southern more Basal Eurasian. The southern population is dolichocephalic, smaller-faced, and has shorter and wider noses. The northern one is brachycephalic, has longer and wider faces, and longer and narrower noses.

 

[Angela]

I skimmed this preprint a couple months ago and I'm not sure I'm convinced. I don't think their findings are enough to warrant overturning our current understanding of admixture in the region. The Gulf has significantly more ANE admixture than Yemen.

I bet the Basal Eurasian ancestry in Arabians is why they look so different from West Asians from farther north. When I first met Saudis, Yemenis, and Yemeni Jews, I was surprised by how rare the large, aquiline noses I'm used to seeing in the Middle East were among them. In fact I would say especially their women have upturned noses more frequently than hooked (though women of all ethnicities trend towards that more than men). Henry Field published anthropometric craniofacial measurements on a number of groups from Iraq and Iran and it's interesting to compare the Bedouin, Marsh Arabs, Mandeans, Iraqi soldiers, etc.

In the genetic source populations used online (esp. in GEDmatch) there are populations called "Bedouin A" and "Bedouin B", both appear to be Negev Bedouin from southern Israel. The Bedouin B in particular always scores ~90% "Southwest Asian" or "Near Eastern" or whatever on every calculator used.

This paper by Deven Vyas (GENETIC INFERENCES ON HUMAN EVOLUTIONARY HISTORY IN SOUTHERN ARABIA AND THE LEVANT) points to "BedouinB" and Yemenis from the Mahra governorate as the likely descendants of the Basal Eurasians. They consistently have the highest levels of Arabian Peninsula-specific ancestry that is found admixed into other populations (as "Neolithic"-related in Euros for instance).

Then there are the figures from Ain Ghazal in Jordan. This is from I believe the PPNC culture. Note how they all have cute little upturned noses.
View attachment 12802

This is from the 1960s and compares the anthropometric variables of inhabitants of two places in northern and southern Iran, respectively. It can be expected that the northern population would be representative of more ANE and CHG admixture, and the southern more Basal Eurasian. The southern population is dolichocephalic, smaller-faced, and has shorter and wider noses. The northern one is brachycephalic, has longer and wider faces, and longer and narrower noses.

Well then, clearly PPNB people had different kinds of noses. There is nothing short and upturned about the noses at Jericho. Or perhaps their artwork didn't always resemble them accurately.

I'd also be very interested to see Bedouins and Saudis with short, upturned noses.

This is what the Saudis I've seen look like:

There are also, of course, men of the purest Saudi descent who do have a slight hook to their noses.

Yemeni man:

Feel free to google "Yemeni" men. You won't see a short, upturned nose among them.

Bedouin:

I picked one of the handsome ones, but the noses are all the same.

Bedouin woman from the Negev:

The only Saudi women who are going to have short, upturned noses are those who have had plastic surgery. There are more nose jobs done in the Near East than anywhere in the world. Even Queen Rania, who I think is a very beautiful woman, has clearly had one. All you have to do is go back and look at pictures of her when she was young and compare them to the present day.

People really shouldn't rely on the things they see and read on so called "anthro" sites. It's almost always a cherry picked bunch of nonsense based on some sort of underlying agenda.

 

[Doggerland]

The phenotip description in my mind from the snps you mention sound logical...
P s
What is the main snp for nose
Shape ?

As is said I wont post the whole set of SNPs here but for nose these are good predictors:


rs7325564 rs4787778 rs2058742 rs2045323 rs17640804 rs3751074 rs3920540

 

[Doggerland]

I already said that the skull shape itself is unknown because there is evidence of head binding in infancy.

A clay mask or wax one or plaster ones, as in the ones which were done throughout European history, are the best indication of what people looked like, not a program based on a very small number of snps, particularly as you don't list the snps you are using, so their reliability can't be checked, and with such old samples we're not going to get all the snps.

In addition, there are people in the same area who look a lot like those masks.

So, I'll stick with the masks.

But you forget that many cultures of the world do not produce face masks, paintings and sculptures of themselves or others that are meant to look 100% realistic.

Often persons will be portrayed better then they looked, or more like the beauty ideal oft that time. I personally trust more genetic information then masks or other art.
There are also much Media circulating on the Internet that creates a false Image of Ancient people. Best example is Neanderthals that are often prortrayed fair skinned, blonde, European looking, but nothing is far more from truth then this images.

These skulls for example resembles not the beauty ideals you have posted here:https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AxBdAJM2lEM/hqdefault.jpg

https://www.pinterest.de/pin/564005553310730586/

Do you think Cucuteni people looked like this:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-o_RMZfmWc...600/110_tv16kukutyin___cucuteni_kultura_2.jpg?
I don't think so.

There are two nice books about ancient Masks available if you are interested in that topic:

https://www.amazon.de/Masken-Vorzei...ords=masken+der+vorzeit&qid=1626673409&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.de/Masken-Vorzei...ords=masken+der+vorzeit&qid=1626673428&sr=8-6

I own both of them.

 

[kingdavid]

 

[Angela]

But you forget that many cultures of the world do not produce face masks, paintings and sculptures of themselves or others that are meant to look 100% realistic.

Often persons will be portrayed better then they looked, or more like the beauty ideal oft that time. I personally trust more genetic information then masks or other art.
There are also much Media circulating on the Internet that creates a false Image of Ancient people. Best example is Neanderthals that are often prortrayed fair skinned, blonde, European looking, but nothing is far more from truth then this images.

These skulls for example resembles not the beauty ideals you have posted here:https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AxBdAJM2lEM/hqdefault.jpg

https://www.pinterest.de/pin/564005553310730586/

Do you think Cucuteni people looked like this:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-o_RMZfmWc...600/110_tv16kukutyin___cucuteni_kultura_2.jpg?
I don't think so.

There are two nice books about ancient Masks available if you are interested in that topic:

https://www.amazon.de/Masken-Vorzei...ords=masken+der+vorzeit&qid=1626673409&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.de/Masken-Vorzei...ords=masken+der+vorzeit&qid=1626673428&sr=8-6

I own both of them.

Sorry, I'm not following your logic here. The masks at Jericho are DEATH masks of ACTUAL people, probably of ancestors, just like the death masks of Lincoln or Washington etc. They're made by taking a cast (clay, plaster, wax) or impression of the face and sometimes the skull of a corpse. That's why they're the best way to know what someone looked like at the time of death.

They're absolutely NOT an artistic reimagination or stylistic representation, like the figure from Cucuteni. (BTW there are also even more ancient European hunter gatherer versions.)

The picture of a decayed mask which you posted still shows a long nose.

Also, I didn't publish any beauty "ideals". For one thing I don't think the Saudis are a particularly good looking group. Yemenis and some groups of Bedouins are a different story if you ignore the premature aging. However, specifically as to the noses, all you have to do is google Saudis, Yemenis, and Bedouins. You could add Egyptians and North Africans to that list. There are hundreds if not thousands of images from the news, anthropological work, etc. You may find some hooked noses among the Saudis, in particular, but after all they do have some northern Near Eastern/Caucasus type ancestry. Even if you don't know the percentages, their yDna alone would tell you that. Otherwise, the noses are straight and long. Not ONE image of all of those people shows short upturned noses.

Nose shape probably results from lots of small effect alleles. I doubt we have them all.

For what it's worth, I checked my raw data at 23andme. Only two are available.

rs7325564 TT
rs17640804 TT

Again, for what it's worth, my nose is moderately long, absolutely straight, wider at the tip than the base.

Anyway, sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree. The death masks at Jericho are, I think, the best way to know what they looked like.

 

[kingdavid]

angela the masks of jericho
belong to the ppnb period
which is later than natufian period
even by y dna we see difference the natufians were majority E ( so i can't rule out upturned nose or some other african traits )
in ppnb remain while E is present in 33% but we do see some other y haplogroups : T, H
so it is possible the not upturned nose you see is a results of there influence or change in face morfology
when the E mixed with T and H that might results in hook nose or straight nose you see in those death masks of the ppnb remains ....

 

[Doggerland]

Sorry, I'm not following your logic here. The masks at Jericho are DEATH masks of ACTUAL people, probably of ancestors, just like the death masks of Lincoln or Washington etc. They're made by taking a cast (clay, plaster, wax) or impression of the face and sometimes the skull of a corpse. That's why they're the best way to know what someone looked like at the time of death.

They're absolutely NOT an artistic reimagination or stylistic representation, like the figure from Cucuteni. (BTW there are also even more ancient European hunter gatherer versions.)

The picture of a decayed mask which you posted still shows a long nose.

Also, I didn't publish any beauty "ideals". For one thing I don't think the Saudis are a particularly good looking group. Yemenis and some groups of Bedouins are a different story if you ignore the premature aging. However, specifically as to the noses, all you have to do is google Saudis, Yemenis, and Bedouins. You could add Egyptians and North Africans to that list. There are hundreds if not thousands of images from the news, anthropological work, etc. You may find some hooked noses among the Saudis, in particular, but after all they do have some northern Near Eastern/Caucasus type ancestry. Even if you don't know the percentages, their yDna alone would tell you that. Otherwise, the noses are straight and long. Not ONE image of all of those people shows short upturned noses.

Nose shape probably results from lots of small effect alleles. I doubt we have them all.

For what it's worth, I checked my raw data at 23andme. Only two are available.

rs7325564 TT
rs17640804 TT

Again, for what it's worth, my nose is moderately long, absolutely straight, wider at the tip than the base.

Anyway, sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree. The death masks at Jericho are, I think, the best way to know what they looked like.

And my opinion is the opposite. Ancient peoples from Palaeolithic or Early Neolithic era had no oil painting or photograph of their death, they where not skilled artists with modern tools to create such accurate masks as the one of Abraham Lincoln. The Natufian masks look far from being anything perfect or realistic.

Ancient people just look like they have looked, the admixture is not predicting necessary how they have looked, but the SNPs of their traits. I also mentioned that before. The admixtures are taken from modern populations, their phenotypes changed over time by selection and what is now a componentlike “Eastern European” can be a mix of once neolithic and whg ancestry for example of a specific region.
The components change with the algorithm that is used and samples/SNPs that are used to define a component, but the phenotypic traits for the samples wont change, they only can be better predicted, if more work for this is done and more SNPs for phenotypic traits are known.

For me all SNPs I posted here are matching my phenotype of nose and are available, I use ftdna data.

I don't think that we can somehow agree, different positions.