Are Austrians the same as Germans ??

[ElHorsto]

...
There are many peoples here in my region who are not typically German or germanic, they more resemble slavics. Also Blondes with blue eyes are relativly seldom, in Northern Germany they are much more common.

South Germans (Bavarians, Rhinelanders) look much more dark than North-Germans, but this fits rather well to the celto-roman history of these regions rather than slavs. Northern Germany is actually the part of Germany with more slavic history than the south.
Also if you compare an average pole to an average bulgarian you'll see strong differences in colors. Maybe austrians have similar slavic influence like northern-germany, just probably more from natives or balkan-slavs rather than from baltic slavs like poles and russians.

 

[Knovas]

When I mentioned the lack of samples, I specially refered to the autosomal projects (Dodecad and Eurogenes). As I said, the most similar admixture proportions I know, come from a Swiss girl and a Southern German listed between the "Mixed Germanic" samples.

Don't trust too much in the haplogroup frequencies, since most times autosomal results are fairly different than expected based on this. And of course, the Austrian figures here in Eupedia come from a tiny number of samples, one more reason to be prudent.

 

[zanipolo]

I would say, it's not so much an 'invention' but a product of relatively recent history (the past 200 years). Let's take a closer look at this:

- Austria shares a common linguistic origin with the Bavarians.
- The Habsburgs were, over longer stretches of time, the dominant power inside the Holy Roman Empire, and large areas of land which lie today within Germany or the Benelux countries were once technically part of Austria.
- As I mentioned before, the last Holy Roman emperor was a Habsburger.
- Austria was, due to the Austrian-Prussian rivalry (and due to the fact that by then it was a multi-ethnic empire) excluded from the German reunification.
- At the end of World War I, the rump Austrian state was prohibited from (re-)unifying with Germany.
- On the eve of World War II, Austria was de-facto annexed by Nazi Germany, and for the Allies, it was without debate to reverse this after the war.
- After World War II, Austrian national identity was heavily boosted in order to distantiate themselves from the Nazis (though there are reasons you might consider this a little bit ironic).
- By 1990, when the two Germanies reunified at the end of the Cold War, nobody on either side even raised the suggestion of a (re-)unification with Austria.

As you can see, the best way to describe this is a gradual process over the past 200 years. Had history happened differently, who knows?

then how correct is this article, which leads to some some of Austrian national unity form the Boii.
Note: although the rugii are mentioned , it seems to exclude their original homelnad, but only there settled homeland of austria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarii


more tests that influence the austrians
http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/ergolding.html

 

[MOESAN]

Of course they are not the same in average, although haplogroups are not the most reliable indicator to know it. For the moment there's lack of Austrian samples, but probably something will come out soon as Dodecad achieves, at least, 5 Austrians to show the average.

But Germans aren't homogeneous as group, there's not a modal German in genetic terms. The German portrait from the Dodecad project, show significant variations from North to South in regards for this population. So even Germans are not the same between each other, and some of them are surely very similar to Austrians. I don't have any doubt about this.

maybe there is a confusion in this question between Germans of today Deutschland and the previous Germanic people of Proto-History or Antiquity? for me old Germanics was not a pure race but they was an homogenous enough ethny without too big regional differences - Today Deutschland is a mixture of a lot of ancien cultures and ethnies put together, and that explains in part the differences between North and South Germany.

 

[Robert22]

I still dont know wheater Austria counts as own ethnic group or not...

 

[Knovas]

As I said, is much better to call them population instead of ethnic group. But genetic projects consider them apart, if this is helpful for you.

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

I still dont know wheater Austria counts as own ethnic group or not...

Maybe you should read the definition of "ethnic group" first, and then you can decide on your own!
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

To give you my personal opinion about it, until the end of WWII Austrians were Germans of Austrian nationality. After WWII Austrians, as well as most Germans, consider Austrians as an own ethnic group.
If you want to base ethnicity on austosmal DNA only and count Austrians as a distinct ethnic group, then also North and South Germans would both form their own.

 

[zanipolo]

I would say that IMO, in the 20th century, the western part of austria, vasicaly from Innsbruck to switzerland would have been the "authentic" austrians, some call them tylonese, while from innsbruck to Vienna would have been a very mixed people.
It would be interesting to find out the DNA between western and eastern austria

 

[MOESAN]

I still dont know wheater Austria counts as own ethnic group or not...

I depends of what one put under the world 'ethnicity' - for the present days Austrian, sure the most of them consider themselves as Austrian and no more nor less, it should be interesting asking them, not?
as a whole, the Austrians are heirs (heritiers?) of a complicated history, that did not differenciate them to much from modern Bavarians -(only a bit more remnants of Neolithic peasants?) in details it would be some differences, but they were 'erased' by History: so 'Southern Germans' could be convenient as an ethnic naming for some people.
But in reality, the Austrio-Hungarian empire had left some reliefs in the Eastern Population (Wien) and in the Carinthia were ethnic Slovenes and Croatians were incorporated or taken their lands from them by Austria. For I know, when I see to their names, as a whole I find about 20% of non-germanic surnames, that 's very heavy (only a 6-8% of polish names in Germany, before the arriving of the Turks)! the majority of these 20% are Czech (Western slavic) names and Hungarian (Magyar) names, and a few southern slavic names (not so much outside of southern districts) - i did not a "survey" but on some 400 names of the whole country I found some evidently Czech names adspelled according the germanic spelling rules: people infiltred in Austrian before the empire? - By the same phenomenon of 'osmose' on the other side, Czechs and Hungarians present some germanic names (respelled sometimes too, as also in Poland, with slavic spellings) -
in a collection of about 200 austrian faces I found sometime very exotic visages, with some taste of a somewhat very light asiatic ('brutal' mongoloïd) component. As much or very close to what you can find among Hungarians (seldom in every case). I was told that in the Northwestern islands of Croatia there are some 'mongoloid' genes too. these rare influences by the side, I find Austrian people presents a non surpriising mixture of these phenotypes (in a sort of order of weight): 'nordic', 'alpine', 'dinaric', 'borreby' and unclear 'mediterranean' features (evidently the mixed faces are the commonest!)- more 'dinaric' in Tyrol, more 'brunets' in Tyrol, more 'nordics' in the Center. Picture taken on surface...

 

[Eldritch]

They have a bit more Neolithic influence to be similar to Germans.

 

[Vedun]

Austrians are a nation which was established on the roots of Bavarians and Karantanians (old Slovenes). This is visible from their surnames and folklore (krampus for example). Some of their Austrian poets, writers and other academians want to standardize the literal Austrian language to give it the status of an independent language world wide. For example; in German there are Brötchen, but in Austrian, they know Semmeln. Or in German there is ein Junge, but in Austrian there is Bub (Poba, Pobalin in Slovene).

die Kaisersemmel ("Kaiserbrötchen")

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Kaisersemmel-.jpg/660px-Kaisersemmel-.jpg

 

[FrankN]

Austrians are a nation which was established on the roots of Bavarians and Karantanians (old Slovenes). This is visible from their surnames and folklore (krampus for example). Some of their Austrian poets, writers and other academians want to standardize the literal Austrian language to give it the status of an independent language world wide. For example; in German there are Brötchen, but in Austrian, they know Semmeln. Or in German there is ein Junge, but in Austrian there is Bub (Poba, Pobalin in Slovene).

The "Semmel" / "Bub" criteria would make Austrians 100% Bavarian!

But seriously: I strongly suspect the Austrian Y-DNA data to have come from Vienna. As capital of a widespread, multi-ethnic empire, Vienna has obviously attracted many migrants from all Austro-Hungarian lands. As Vienna isn't far away from Slovakia, Moravia and Hungary, it furthermore should have been the obvious place to go during the industrial revolution. As such, finding traces of population from all corners of the Austro-Hungarian empire in Vienna isn't much of a surprise. Carinthia has of course strong Slavic elements, and considering that already during the bronze age a major copper trade route went from Linz to Prague, "Bohemian" genes (whatever they were and how they changed over time) in Upper Austria would also not be a surprise. Austria is at the crossing of major European roads, as long as DNA testing is done along these roads, some pan-European mix is to be expected.

Once you go to the mountain villages, the picture changes considerably. A recent study on East Tyrolia came out with the following results:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041885#pone.0041885.s007

[TABLE="width: 730"]
[TR]
[TD]Haplogroup

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]All

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]"Slavic"

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]"Roman"
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E* (M96)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.11%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.43%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.71%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E1b1b1a (M78)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.44%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.11%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]---
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G2a (P15)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.41%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.09%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.86%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I1 (M253)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15.93%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16.17%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14.29%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I2a1 (P37.2)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.74%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.43%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.86%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I2a2a (M223)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.59%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.98%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]---
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J (M304)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.89%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.36%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.71%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]R1a (M17)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14.07%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16.17%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]---
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]R1b* (M343*, L23*, S167*, L11*)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.78%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.38%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.14%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]R1b-S116*
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.96%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.40%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]---
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]R1b-U106
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.89%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.45%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.57%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]R1b-U152
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12.59%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.06%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22.86%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Others (G*, I*,L,Q,T)
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.59%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.98%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]---
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

For once, East Tyrolia has much less R1a, E and J than the "standard" (Vienna?) data set. but comparatively more R1b, and a little more I1. Even more interestingly, there are stark differences between the north-eastern part, where various Slavic location names are found alongside German ones, and the south-western part, where Romanic location names are more common. The "Roman" side is completely lacking R1a, E-M78 and I2a2, but is instead full of ancient R1b sub-clades and Italo-Celtic R1b-U152.

I take that as a sign that the "Austrian" gene pool can change within a few km, as soon as you move away from the large cities. If genes are deemed an adequate means to conclude on ethnic identity (which I seriously doubt), it is probably better to speak of Carinthians, East Tyrolians erc. than of Austrians.

 

[Sile]

what is an Austria ?

created only in the year 998AD from bavarian origins ..........

end of roman empire times ...there where lombards and Rugii in eastern Austria for many many decades

are the 150 lombards skeletons in eastern austria been analysed yet from 2 years ago?
[h=1]Using Genetic Data to Revolutionalize Understanding of Migration History[/h] [h=3]By Patrick Geary[/h]
http://www.ias.edu/about/publications/ias-letter/articles/2013-spring/geary-history-genetics

 

[Wilhelm]

Well, Germans to begin with are a very broad group. You have northern-germans (more Scandinavian-like), West-Germans (more Dutch/French like), East-Germans (more Eastern Euro), and Austrians from what i've seen on PCA plots, they are more central-euro they also overlap with Hungarians.

 

[Vedun]

"created only in the year 998AD from bavarian origins"

Sure, like Karantania never existed...

Austria was built on the Bavarian & Karantanian law called Rota (in latin as "Institutio Sklavenica Lex"). This democratic law - which was talking about the will of people(women have had equal rights as men), later influenced American president, Thomas Jefferson in his Declaration of Independence, who read about old Karantania over Jean Bodin and his "Lex Six Livres de la Republique" (1576)
http://www2.arnes.si/~gljsentvid10/oseb_stran/bodanis_karantanija01.jpg


The country of Karantania was separated between Frankish and Bavarian rule, or better said annexed to the Frankish supremacy from the beginning, as was partially also Bavaria. Karantanian leadership was forced into a strategic "partnership" (instead of their constant wars which were rather religious Christian vs "pagan" campaigns ) because of the invasion of Avars / Obri / Hobri (Hebrew Turks from Khazar Khanate) which included an aid in military on the Karantanian borders. In return for that help in year 743 "AD", Karantanians were forced into an obligation to accept the Christian religion, which consequently meant that they were automatically obligated to follow the Frankish orders; or the "Holy" roman (Frankish) empire"...
You have to realize that the territory of current Austria, especially the eastern and central part was generally populated with the Slavic speaking people at that time. How ever, they carried their Carinthian (Karantanian) tradition of Inauguration of their dukes - in Slovene language (The last instalation of Karantanian (Carynthian; Koroški) dukes happened exactly 600 years ago (year 1414) with Ernest Železni (Ernest, duke of Austria) in traditional Slovene language at the Zollfeld plain (Gosposvetsko polje), which proves that the country was never "germanized" to the final level even at that time... There are linguistic, cultura, genetic elements which prove, that Austria was never fully "Bavarian" and nobody can hide this.

 

[Nobody1]

There are linguistic, cultura, genetic elements which prove, that Austria was never fully "Bavarian" and nobody can hide this.

Well of course i could;
But that goes without saying the Vorarlberg area is not Bairisch but Alemannic (akin to the Alemannic Swiss) same goes for much of western Tirol and the Vinschgau in South Tirol; Südbairisch (SouthBavarian) is now the most dominant in Kärnten and rest of Tirol but as noted before Osttirol (East) and Kärnten were settled by the Slavs (Karintanen) before the Bavarian expansion of the Agilolfinger (Odilo/TassiloIII) in the 8th century; The Langobarden of Friaul mention the Karintanen Slavs regularly; The rest of Austria was mostly settled from Germanic (Bavarian) lands during the Carolingian period i.e. Awarenmark onwards;

German dialects in modern Austria;
http://www.oeaw.ac.at/icltt/dinamlex-archiv/bearbeitungsgebiet.PNG
Rebala et al 2013 - Bavarian Y-DNA (218 samples)
http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Rebala2013.pdf

 

[Sile]

"created only in the year 998AD from bavarian origins"

Sure, like Karantania never existed...

Austria was built on the Bavarian & Karantanian law called Rota (in latin as "Institutio Sklavenica Lex"). This democratic law - which was talking about the will of people(women have had equal rights as men), later influenced American president, Thomas Jefferson in his Declaration of Independence, who read about old Karantania over Jean Bodin and his "Lex Six Livres de la Republique" (1576)
http://www2.arnes.si/~gljsentvid10/oseb_stran/bodanis_karantanija01.jpg

View attachment 6458
The country of Karantania was separated between Frankish and Bavarian rule, or better said annexed to the Frankish supremacy from the beginning, as was partially also Bavaria. Karantanian leadership was forced into a strategic "partnership" (instead of their constant wars which were rather religious Christian vs "pagan" campaigns ) because of the invasion of Avars / Obri / Hobri (Hebrew Turks from Khazar Khanate) which included an aid in military on the Karantanian borders. In return for that help in year 743 "AD", Karantanians were forced into an obligation to accept the Christian religion, which consequently meant that they were automatically obligated to follow the Frankish orders; or the "Holy" roman (Frankish) empire"...
You have to realize that the territory of current Austria, especially the eastern and central part was generally populated with the Slavic speaking people at that time. How ever, they carried their Carinthian (Karantanian) tradition of Inauguration of their dukes - in Slovene language (The last instalation of Karantanian (Carynthian; Koroški) dukes happened exactly 600 years ago (year 1414) with Ernest Železni (Ernest, duke of Austria) in traditional Slovene language at the Zollfeld plain (Gosposvetsko polje), which proves that the country was never "germanized" to the final level even at that time... There are linguistic, cultura, genetic elements which prove, that Austria was never fully "Bavarian" and nobody can hide this.

View attachment 6457

Karantania is Carantania

The name of the region, like neighbouring Carantania and Carinthia, probably derives from the Carni, a Celtic tribe who had lived for centuries in the fertile plains between the Rhine and the Danube rivers where other Celtic peoples lived. Starting from 400 BC, the demographic growth and the pressure of the Germanic peoples, originated a migratory flood towards the south. The Carni crossed the Alps via the Plöcken Pass and settled in the region which is nowadays named Carnia and in the piedmont zone of Friuli. They practiced hunting and breeding. During the hard winters the herders used to move with their cattle down to the piedmont plains. Also they were skilful iron and wood manufacturers. The Carni were headed by a king and a sacerdotal caste of druids.

Antiquity

The first historical date related to the arrival of the Carni is 186 BC, when some 50,000 Carni, composed of armed men, women and children descended towards the plains (in which they previously used to winter) and on a hill they founded a stable defensive settlement, Akileja. The Romans, concerned by the expansion of this people, in 183 BC forced back the Carni to the mountains, they destroyed their settlement and they founded a defensive settlement at the north-east boundaries. The new settlement was named Aquileia, after the former Celtic name Akileja. The triumvirs that founded that settlement were Publius Scipio Nasica, Caius Flaminius and Lucius Manlius Acidinus.

The area is named after the Carni tribe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni

The Carni in Italy became the modern Friuliani

The Carni came down from the alps and split the venetic people , basically in half .......are they Gaulish or celtic people.............still debatable. But the Friulian language has base words which is ancient gaulish according to linguistic scholars
Since the veneti saved the Romans and Rome with a push against the gauls in lombardy, the Romans sent men to save the veneti from the carni........Aquiliania was the stronghold to control the carni

Ancient friuli culture is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture

while veneti culture is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este_culture

Castellieri culture was also Liburni ( illyrian ) area .................and also typical of mycenean burial styles


@vedun

maybe you can decifer the friulian below................the venetian is 95% like the venetian in central veneto

Central (Udine) Friulian
Copiis
Il puar biāt al ą copiāt il Siōr
par dīj: “O soi come tč”:
ma il Siōr nol ą copiāt.
Magari chel biāt j ą vuadagnāt,
ma i fīs, daspņ, cetant ąno pajāt
no savint jéssi sé?
Il lōr destin al č, savéso quāl?
Copie de brute copie origjnāl!
Eastern/Coastal (Triestino) Venetian
Copie
Il sempio il gą copią il Sior
par dir “Mi son come ti”
ma il Sior no’l gą copią.
Forsi quel sempio xč divegnudo sior,
ma i fioi, dopo, quanto i gą pagą par
non saver come xe stado?
Savč vł qual xč il loro destin?

Only changes needed to central veneto is
gą = gha
xč = xe
Savč = saver
vł = el ...............the friulian/venetian L is what is referred to as the vanishing L
It's phonetic characteristic is the vanishing L that can be described as a "lazy" L, its not sounded, which is why the word is sometimes missing the L


I translated the venetian below into....
The simpleton has copied the master
to say "I am like you"
but the master has not copied ( anyone)
Maybe the simpleton became the master
but his sons, later, had paid for
not knowing how it came to be (about)?
How do they know what is their destiny?

 

[Vedun]

regards to the old Venetic language, maybe you can deciper this text in Venetic, when you are such a scholar of old Venetic?

(PS Friuli as a language has influences in: German, Italian, Venetian and Slovene (if you wish or not). You are cross breeds of many "races" and languages, just like we are. But you definatelly do not speak any "Celtic" language. There are traces of the Kelt(Ghaul; without any doubt, do you know that the word KELT (GHAUL) derives from the term "gallus, seagull, glas, gala, galeb, glagolica..."? (voice, throat, bird,...? People who "speak" (like birds) You are so much "Keltic" as our people are, who live nearby the border.
And people who lived nearby the Trst (Trieste) or better said Trg/Tržišče ("Tergeste") definatelly did not name this city under some Latin term; Torg in Swedish, Trg in Slovene; "market" (margad; or feill in old Ghaul & Irish) ... which was definitelly not a celtic, nor latin word.

 

[Sile]

regards to the old Venetic language, maybe you can deciper this text in Venetic, when you are such a scholar of old Venetic?
View attachment 6459
(PS Friuli as a language has influences in: German, Italian, Venetian and Slovene (if you wish or not). You are cross breeds of many "races" and languages, just like we are. But you definatelly do not speak any "Celtic" language. There are traces of the Kelt(Ghaul; without any doubt, do you know that the word KELT (GHAUL) derives from the term "gallus, seagull, glas, gala, galeb, glagolica..."? (voice, throat, bird,...? People who "speak" (like birds) You are so much "Keltic" as our people are, who live nearby the border.
And people who lived nearby the Trst (Trieste) or better said Trg/Tržišče ("Tergeste") definatelly did not name this city under some Latin term; Torg in Swedish, Trg in Slovene; "market" (margad; or feill in old Ghaul & Irish) ... which was definitelly not a celtic, nor latin word.

I will try if you can give me some clarity
Oderzo, From the mid-9th century BC the Veneti occupied site and gave it its name. Etymologically, "-terg-" in Opitergium stems from a Venetic root word indicating a market (q.v. Tergeste, the old name of Trieste). The location of Oderzo on the Venetian plain made it ideal as a center for trade.

Clearly you need to stop fabricating and cease to call noted Venetic words as slovene. Since the venetic where there in western slovenia ( and in Italy ) OVER a 1000 years before the slovenes arrived, ..... clearly the venetics that remained and became slovenes, taught the slovenes the few words that they recalled which where Venetic in origin. There are no Venetic words which where taught by the slovenes to the venetics because the venetics disappeared from history before the birth of Christ..........isn't this the logical scenario?

 

[MOESAN]

was not this thread dedied to Austrians and Germans at first?