Are lots of Greeks and Italians descendants of ancient Phonecians?

[MINDustry]

I had a question about the J1 and J2 haplogroups regarding Phonecians and Southern Europeans.

Are the ancient Semitic speaking Phoenicians responsible for lots of J1 and J2 in and around Southern Europe. Specifically Italy, Malta, Sicily and Greece.

Do a lot of Greeks descend from Phoenicians or have Phoenician heritage?

 

[MINDustry]

I had a question about the J1 and J2 haplogroups regarding Phonecians and Southern Europeans.

Are the ancient Semitic speaking Phoenicians responsible for lots of J1 and J2 in and around Southern Europe. Specifically Italy, Malta, Sicily and Greece.

Do a lot of Greeks descend from Phoenicians or have Phoenician heritage?

The Neolithic Farmers would've brought J1 and J2 from Turkey and Mesopotamia into the Levant to the Phonecians, and then those Phonecians would've been the ancient Near Eastern ancestors of Greek and Italian males today.

 

[vcovaci]

The Phoenicians established colonies mainly in North Africa. In Europe, they did settle in southern Spain, Malta, the Balearic islands, Sardinia, Sicily and Cyprus, but they had fewer colonies. Also, some of them might have settled in southern France and Crete. They didn't colonise the Greek mainland, but they had trade contacts there. I don't think there would be any significant Phoenician contribution to modern Greek Y-DNA.

See Maciamo's genetic history of Italian people. Surely there is some information about the Phoenicians and their potential impact.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

The Neolithic Farmers would've brought J1 and J2 from Turkey and Mesopotamia into the Levant to the Phonecians, and then those Phonecians would've been the ancient Near Eastern ancestors of Greek and Italian males today.

Personally I think a lot of the J will turn out to have come as farmers from somewhere near the Caspian and moved into both SE Europe and the middle east. The Phoenicians may have added another layer on top of that later but i think the bulk of it came earlier.

 

[Maleth]

I had a question about the J1 and J2 haplogroups regarding Phonecians and Southern Europeans.

Are the ancient Semitic speaking Phoenicians responsible for lots of J1 and J2 in and around Southern Europe. Specifically Italy, Malta, Sicily and Greece.

Do a lot of Greeks descend from Phoenicians or have Phoenician heritage?

Like it has been stated by vcovaci and greying Wanderer, both Greece and Lebanon have high numbers especially of J2, this mix probably happened much before the rise of the Greek and Phoenician civilizations. We have documented expansions of Greek expansions and settlements into Sicily the South of Italy and to a lesser extent Phoenician so its very probable that they added some more J2 in the areas they have settled in.

Crete and Malta seem to have the highest percentage of J1 In Europe at approx 8% however there are some areas on the continent that cover the size of Malta (example) that can be even well over that percentage. The bulk population of Malta are derived from a re population project from Sicily (presuming from the south such as Agrigento during the Fatmid('Arab') period) I have no doubt that some is derived through some conversions to Christianity after the Jewish and Muslim expulsion of 1224. It is interesting also to note that a number of surnames today that carry a Jewish connection have been tested J1, so there is a strong connection there between J1 and converted Jews. I do not know the situation in other parts of Europe.

 

[MINDustry]

Like it has been stated by vcovaci and greying Wanderer, both Greece and Lebanon have high numbers especially of J2, this mix probably happened much before the rise of the Greek and Phoenician civilizations. We have documented expansions of Greek expansions and settlements into Sicily the South of Italy and to a lesser extent Phoenician so its very probable that they added some more J2 in the areas they have settled in.

Crete and Malta seem to have the highest percentage of J1 In Europe at approx 8% however there are some areas on the continent that cover the size of Malta (example) that can be even well over that percentage. The bulk population of Malta are derived from a re population project from Sicily (presuming from the south such as Agrigento during the Fatmid('Arab') period) I have no doubt that some is derived through some conversions to Christianity after the Jewish and Muslim expulsion of 1224. It is interesting also to note that a number of surnames today that carry a Jewish connection have been tested J1, so there is a strong connection there between J1 and converted Jews. I do not know the situation in other parts of Europe.

There are some areas of mainland Italy that have J1 up to 7%. Almost 10%.

Sicily, Greece, and Malta are other European countries with sizable percentages. Agrigento, Sicily, has 12%. That's quite a bit. It is quite common in Southern Europe if you look closely at all the genetic studies.

I think J1 is only Jewish for those in Spain and Portugal since that's where most of the Jews went.

 

[Maleth]

I think J1 is only Jewish for those in Spain and Portugal since that's where most of the Jews went.

In reality Jews were all over the European continent. The expulsion of Jews and Muslims in Spain came later (1492) then that of Sicily and Malta (1224). Some are known to have converted to Christianity, but many fled to North Africa and some also to the Netherlands were they were not persecuted. We will never know how much of the J1 is Neolithic, Phoenicians, Jew or Muslim. It is all part of the present social structure and from all sides of the families there can be J2's I R G E, not to mention Mtdna. It just happens to be the paternal line who in the meantime it has already been mixed with so many others down the line anyway.

 

[Hauteville]

Phoenicians never settled in most of Italy, only in Sardinia and in two emporiums of Sicily. They settled more in Iberia than Italy and Greece. J2 is not Phoenician signature, J2 as well as J1 was introduced into Europe in very old times from Anatolia/Caucasus.

 

[vcovaci]

Maybe historical demographics could help us in assessing the potential genetic impact Jews had on the Iberian population. After the Alhambra decree in 1492 the majority of Jews in Spain converted to Catholicism. They were between 200 000 and 250 000 in number. At that moment, the population of the entire peninsula was of some 7 million people. A simple calculation will show that those Jews represented about 3% of the population, so their potential impact would have been quite minimal. We should also take into account the role of migration to the Americas (of both native Spanish Christians and converted Moors and Jews) in influencing the evolution of these demographic facts.

All three branches of J1-L858 (S640, YSC76 and FGC11) are found in Europe, principally in Spain, Italy, central and eastern Europe. Their relatively recent time of divergence with their Middle Eastern cousins (Late Bronze Age to Iron Age) suggests that they would have arrived with the Phoenicians (Sicily, Sardinia, Spain), and later in greater numbers with the Jewish diaspora. Spain and Portugal have the highest percentage of FGC12 in Europe, but this amounts to about 12% of J1 lineages, i.e. less than 0.5% of the population, suggesting that the Arabs had a much smaller genetic impact on the Iberian population than the Jews and the Phoenicians (Source: the Eupedia article on haplogroup J1)

This could further help in differentiating the impact of Jews from the impact of Phoenicians in the genetics of modern Spain and Portugal.

 

[oreo_cookie]

If there is any Phoenician DNA in Europe it is more likely to be in coastal southern Spain. Sicily and Malta should have some. It is doubtful there is any Phoenician DNA in Greece considering that their subclades of E1b1b and J2 do not match with either the Levant nor with North Africa (if we're thinking of Carthaginians).

As far as J2, its highest European frequencies are in Crete and in Calabria. Sicily would probably be next. Greece proper has higher E1b1b than it does J2, which averages in the 15% range based on estimates I have seen.

"The highest concentrations of J2a in Europe are found in Crete (32% of the population) and Calabria (26%). J2a-M319, one of the principal J2 subclades in Greece, Italy and Western Europe, reaches is maximum frequency in Crete (6-9%)"

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

Like it has been stated by vcovaci and greying Wanderer, both Greece and Lebanon have high numbers especially of J2, this mix probably happened much before the rise of the Greek and Phoenician civilizations. We have documented expansions of Greek expansions and settlements into Sicily the South of Italy and to a lesser extent Phoenician so its very probable that they added some more J2 in the areas they have settled in.

Most of the J2 in Sicily does not match that of Greece in subclades. If you want a marker for Greek DNA in Sicily, look at Balkan E1b. But the noticeably higher Steppe/Russian derived ancestry in Greece than in Sicily implies that Sicilians do not have much Greek ancestry.

 

[Hauteville]

If there is any Phoenician DNA in Europe it is more likely to be in coastal southern Spain, Baleares, Sardinia, Corsica. Marsala in far west Sicily and Malta should have some.

Fixed

If you want a marker for Greek DNA in Sicily, look at Balkan E1b. But the noticeably higher Steppe/Russian derived ancestry in Greece than in Sicily implies that Sicilians do not have much Greek ancestry.

We haven't ancient Greek aDNA, and islander Greeks are very similar of Sicilians. With aDNA of ancient Greek classic period we can take our conclusions.

Most of the J2 in Sicily does not match that of Greece in subclades.

Italian J2 is usually different from Greek J2 but there is overlap in J2b and some J2a.

About Our J2 by Sarno et al:

and our TMRCA estimates for J2-subhaplogroups (ranging from 3271?1157 YBP to 3767?1332 YBP) cannot exclude an earlier arrival of at least some of the J2 chromosomes in Sicily and Southern-Italy during Neolithic times.

 

[Boreas]

Maybe some sub-branches of J1 and J2 can be related with Phonecians. However there were J1&J2 people in Italy and Greece before the Phonecians. Even in Crete, the dominat haplogroup was J2.

 

[oreo_cookie]

We haven't ancient Greek aDNA, and islander Greeks are very similar of Sicilians. With aDNA of ancient Greek classic period we can take our conclusions.

The Aegean islands were not unpopulated when Greeks arrived. I personally believe the pre-Greek populations of the Aegean, Crete, and Sicily were similar, hence why they plot together today, and that most of their genetic profile was well in place before Greeks (from the mainland) settled, who would have had more Steppe type DNA.

 

[MOESAN]

If there is any Phoenician DNA in Europe it is more likely to be in coastal southern Spain. Sicily and Malta should have some. It is doubtful there is any Phoenician DNA in Greece considering that their subclades of E1b1b and J2 do not match with either the Levant nor with North Africa (if we're thinking of Carthaginians).
...
Most of the J2 in Sicily does not match that of Greece in subclades. If you want a marker for Greek DNA in Sicily, look at Balkan E1b. But the noticeably higher Steppe/Russian derived ancestry in Greece than in Sicily implies that Sicilians do not have much Greek ancestry.

Ancient Greece is not modern Greece; It seems Greece received later a non-negligeable imput from Slavs who could have increased its 'steppic' heritage, at least in some regions.

 

[Hauteville]

The Aegean islands were not unpopulated when Greeks arrived. I personally believe the pre-Greek populations of the Aegean, Crete, and Sicily were similar, hence why they plot together today, and that most of their genetic profile was well in place before Greeks (from the mainland) settled, who would have had more Steppe type DNA.

But also Sicily and South Italy were not unpopulated. We haven't aDNA from classical Greece for a comparison.

 

[Hauteville]

Ancient Greece is not modern Greece; It seems Greece received later a non-negligeable imput from Slavs who could have increased its 'steppic' heritage, at least in some regions.

The Slavs settled in most of modern day Continental Greece down to part of Peloponnese but not in the islands, who, at least to me, have preserved better the ancient Greek heritage this time. A friends of mine from Greece tolds me that many epirotans are crypto-albanians, and many non asiatic greeks from the north have recent bulgarian or fyromian admix, they're like our tyrolean or friulan so.

 

[Angela]

A friends of mine from Greece tolds me that many epirotans are crypto-albanians, and many non asiatic greeks from the north have recent bulgarian or fyromian admix, they're like our tyrolean or friulan so.

That's how I tend to see it as well.

Also, as you said upthread, much of this is just speculation on all our parts. We really need ancient dna from southern Europe. Unfortunately, at least for Greece and Italy, they don't have the money for this kind of research at the present time. It is being studied, apparently, although I could wish it was by more renowned labs.

Btw, I think the amount of "Slavic" dna anywhere in Greece is being vastly overestimated in some quarters. I'm sure some of it is just slightly more "northern" dna filtering down from the Balkans. We'll see if we ever get some pre and post migration era samples from there, but I'll be very surprised if it's more than 10-15%. It's certainly not enough to make Greeks look like Ukrainians, as some would have the more credulous believe.

 

[Yetos]

ok because I hear enough about Greece, etc etc,

1rst, the slavic and celtic admixture in Greece is a fact,
the Slavic admixture from the census of 1800's is considered to be 8-14%
the Celtic admixture either by Roman settlers, either by Crusaders, either By Venicians-Genovese, either by Catalans, even by Con/polis (NOVA ROMA) descendants is also about 8-12%
so Indeed 1/4 modern Greeks comes from Slavic or Celto-Roman,

the Greeks from Anatolia is about 10-15/100 of population, most devasstate abroad after 1920's or 1950's,
Today at Bayern Deutschland live more than 100 000 Greeks from Anatolia/Pontus area when all that came at 1920 were about 300-400 000

The Albanian admixture as Arbanites has 4 waves,
1 the crusaders time, at about 1200-1250 Crusaders brought Albanians to settle at the Duchy of Athens
2 the Maniakis and Kastrioti and Kladas times, which many of them are greeks and most left to Italy, the real Arbereshides
3 late 1700- early 1800 times which most of them were Vlachs and Greeks,
4 the late 1990 wave mostly economical immigrants, which is ahuge wave reaching 1 500 000 at 2002 and drop to about 300-600 000 today,
the Albanian admixture at Greece at the census of 1860 is considered to be 0.3% the written, and about 1,5% the non written,
simply the ones that came with crusaders had took Attica so at early Greek years the capital area looked as Arbanitika speaking to king Otto

other minorities at Greece that even you the wise guys do not know are the true Pomaks of Thrace,
True Pomaks, are not Greeks, neither Turks, neither Bulgarians, and have nothing to do with what Turks pomaks at Adrianoupolis,
True Pomaks have very high HBO Arab due to inner mariage, and live at Rodope mountains more than 2000 years as genetical studies show
they are about 200-300 000 at both Greece and Bulgaria, and after 1920's many moved to Turkey
they are about 1-1,5 % of modern Greek population,

on controversary,
at Albania at 1910-1920 lived 150-200 000 Greeks, more than 400 000 at Fyrom and Serbia about 150 000 at Bulgaria and 100 000 at ex-Austro-Hungarian empire,
most of them returned, or assimilated by locals,

the exchange of populations at 1920's with Turkey change the demographics indeed, but not as the number some want to see or talk,
they mostly came from the historical known after crusaders time Greek empire of Nicaia and Trebizond,
in fact it is considered a disaster for Greeks,
at Trebizond empire only, the estimation was about 3 000 000 Greeks (Rum) while only 3-400 000 came to Greece and same went to Russia and Georgia,
that is why Greeks yell about the Genocide of Pontic Greeks,
so what came from minor Asia it can have only Greek and Local Anatolian admixture,
anyway even if 50% of them were Anatolians or Galates that makes about 5-7% of greece population,
so excluding the Slavic and the 'Roman empire' remnants which is the heaviest admixture about 1/4 modern Greeks
the rest are about max 10%
so ok max 35% of modern Greeks is not ancient Greek, WOW to an area that was center of the world for at least 2 milleniums is that high?
consider Paris and London, they are center of the world for 2-3-5? centuries and have higher admixture,

ok lets put also all Scythians, and Avars, and Arabs and Roma and and and how much 40%?
come on what is next in the agenda?

PS
I wonder why everybody speaks about modern Greece and % of populations,
and do not see the effects of Greek population on other populations?
All except Italy, only Italians admit a % of south Italy has Greek ancenstry, and some Palaistinians
Not Austrians, not Hungarians, not Slovenes, not Romanians, not Bulgarians, not Spanish, not Albanians, not Fyrom, not Croats,, even not Egyptians and Cyrene, not Syrrians, etc etc,

 

[Angela]

@Yetos,

Well, I'm glad my 10-15% "Slavic" seems to be about right. Do you know how they arrived at those numbers for Slavs, or Celts, or Italians? If you have a citation to the paper or study that would be great.

You shouldn't get upset. Some people on other sites have made a sport of discussing Greece and Italy when they've never set foot there and know none of the history. It's all part of how they work out their strange agendas.

They spout constantly, for example, how southern Italians have no or next to no Greek ancestry, which is patently absurd, as you and I, at least, know very well. You can even find it in the north, if E-V13 is any test, and I, for one, am proud of it. (They forget about all those Greek colonies in France and Spain and all along the Black Sea Coast. I wonder how much "Greek" the Ukrainians and the Crimeans have?

I've seen people post maps of the Greek colonies, the places in Sicily and southern Italy where Greek was spoken for more than a thousand years, and the places where it still survives, sites to the influence of Byzantium, and on and on, and it's as if they're deaf. (One of my husband's grandparents came from a town that still spoke Greek until the mid 1700s, and on that basis alone, he used to imagine he was a cousin of Pericles or something. )

If I myself gave some offense, I apologize. I was just trying to inject a little sanity and logic into the discussion, and let the Greeks be Greeks, not some Ukrainian outpost on the Mediterranean.

Also, of course there has been change in Europe since the first millennium BC, and that applies to virtually every area in Europe.

 

[Angela]

The Aegean islands were not unpopulated when Greeks arrived. I personally believe the pre-Greek populations of the Aegean, Crete, and Sicily were similar, hence why they plot together today, and that most of their genetic profile was well in place before Greeks (from the mainland) settled, who would have had more Steppe type DNA.

You can believe anything you wish; it's a free country, as they say.

There's no proof for any of this, and won't be until we get lots and lots of ancient dna. Unfortunately, the study of the genetics of the ancient Greeks and Romans is still in its infancy.

The problem is that Italian and Greek scholars don't have the funds to do this research, and I don't see them getting it in the near future, especially given that the Italian public, at least, is very disinterested in the topic, which in my opinion is a mark of their good sense in these matters.

Still, a few papers are on the way, even if not from the best labs, so we'll see some evidence soon.

Btw, it would be better, in discussing this issue, to use more precise language. Greek at what period in history? As Moesan has wisely pointed out, the Greeks of the classical era who settled parts of Sicily and southern Italy, Massalia in France and a lot of the northern Black Sea coast were probably somewhat different from the Greeks of the modern era who carry some evidence of "Slavic" intrusion. They may not even have been a homogeneous group.

Both are separate from the pre-Indo-European migration "Greeks". Indeed, we don't even know yet what the Indo-European speakers who arrived in Greece were like. Were they like Corded Ware? Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe they were part of a group that emanated from the eastern steppe and carried eastern steppe R1b, while the Yamnaya and eastern BB emanated from the western steppe, or maybe Corded Ware is a product of the forest steppe and just Indo-Europeanized, and it's just eastern "BB" that came from the western steppe or Cucuteni-Tripolyte. Indeed, perhaps Drews was correct and they came by a different route. Who knows how much "steppe" they had in them by the time they arrived. These are all unknowns until we get ancient DNA.