Are Uralic language speakers more closely related to Altaic speakers than Europeans?

Yakuts and Nenets are not Turkic population,they are Siberian population .
From what I knew,Turkic populations are Central Asians,coming from Altai Mountains.
If you take this image ,with Turkic speakers:
turkiclangmap.gif


For me,is very clear that actually Yakuts were conquered by Turkic people and they adopted Turkic language,from the people that conquered them.
I was not arguing here,I was just asking other people if they agree with the opinion that Yakuts were conquered by Turkic tribes and this is how they ended speaking a Turkic language.
From what I know,average Finn got some Siberian admixture but I do not think that (Siberian admixture) can be put into the category of Mongoloid admixture.
Mongolians are central Asians,they are different people,as way of behavior,as culture etc from Siberians.
But this thread was about the fact if Uralic languages speakers are more closed to Altaic speakers,than to Europeans and from my point of view,Fino-Ugrian speakers (Uralic languages) are rather closed to either Germanic people,or Balto-Slavic (included Baltic and Slavic in same larger group) people.
Would be very interesting to study folk music,folk customs and so on,between North Europeans,both Scandos and Balto-Slavs,from North Europe and Uralic speakers.
Cause I think you will find common folk customs between them.

For example,both Finns and Germanic speakers from Scandinavia share as a common folk custom that the bride should wear some piece of gold,on her chest/belly to bring fertility,at wedding.
EDIT:
This thread is becoming boring,without any Turkic native speaker coming here and bringing his/her arguments that Finno-Ugrian speakers are rather related to Turkic languages,than to Indo-European languages.

You seem to understand some of this stuff, there are many common customs.
Christmas is a good example, totally pagan tradition from Norway to Estonia.
We still have people dressing up as a goat, I hate Santa, we should have theme parks with Odin and Thor.
 
You seem to understand some of this stuff, there are many common customs.
Christmas is a good example, totally pagan tradition from Norway to Estonia.
We still have people dressing up as a goat, I hate Santa, we should have theme parks with Odin and Thor.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Odin and Thor are Viking, Germanic gods. Finns aren't Germanic people. So why would you like a Viking god theme park? I know there are at about 300 000 Swedish Finns (suomenruotsalaiset) in Finnland, but the majority of the population is Finn. You have Väinämöinen, why do you need Thor? :confused:
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Odin and Thor are Viking, Germanic gods. Finns aren't Germanic people. So why would you like a Viking god theme park? I know there are at about 300 000 Swedish Finns (suomenruotsalaiset) in Finnland, but the majority of the population is Finn. You have Väinämöinen, why do you need Thor? :confused:

We actually have our own names for gods, just using english here.
 
Ok, then I agree with you.

The so called Siberian component is a Mongoloid component;
Acc. to the last 2 Academic studies (DiCristofaro/Rhagavan) the "Siberian" component is most common in folks like the Yakuts, Evenkis and Nganassans; All Mongoloid people; Finns or Lapps were not tested - no idea; Estonians have only minor traces of this Siberian admixture but much more than Lithuanians (who have almost none);
 
The so called Siberian component is a Mongoloid component;
Acc. to the last 2 Academic studies (DiCristofaro/Rhagavan) the "Siberian" component is most common in folks like the Yakuts, Evenkis and Nganassans; All Mongoloid people; Finns or Lapps were not tested - no idea; Estonians have only minor traces of this Siberian admixture but much more than Lithuanians (who have almost none);

Yeah, that seems to fit. According to K12b, Siberian admixture is ca. 7% in Finns, 2%-7% in Russians (depends on the sample) and 0% in Lithuanians. The Evenks have 84%, Yukagir have 80% and the Yakuts have 77%.
Siberian admixture can be found in very tiny traces also in other european countries, but Finns and Russians (Saami not tested) have the most (although still minor) in europe. I think that their siberian admixture is different from the more common "amerindian" admixture and it is probably not of paleolithic origin but came later. I'm not sure whether it is linked to Y-HG N, because Lithuantians have it too, but they have 0% siberian.
 
There may in fact be multiple layers of Siberian gene flow into northeastern Europe after the initial ANE gene flow, as our analyses
reported in SI 12 show that some Mordovians, Russians and Chuvash have Siberian-related admixture that is significantly more recent than that in Finns(SI12).

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/12/23/001552.full.pdf

Did Nobody1 read the paper? Your first impressions?
 
Finns arent close to Scandinavians in terms of Genetics;
In autosomal-Admixture the Finns are completely isolated and Y-DNA Hg Finns are mostly N-M231 like the Mongoloids of Yakuts and Nenets further east;
Finns are not "completly isolated", that is absurd. Finns are typical North Europeans, although heavily genetically drifted. Finns also have 6% Siberian genes. If Finns are plotted in a principal component analysis with other Europeans, their genetic drift ususually pulls them heavily in one direction, "taking over" the diagram. The Siberian component is ususually not visible. If Finns are plotted along Europeans and more distant people, they tend to cluster with Swedes, Estonians and Northern Russians.

Swedes may be the closest relatives of Finns, but for Swedes, Finns are not the closest, due to the Finnish genetic drift and the closeness of Norwiegans and Danes.

Haplogroup N in Europe must be seen as a marker for mesolithic genes, there is no other way to look at it. It is most common in the Baltic states and Finland, both refugia for mesolithic European genes, autosomal studies are very clear on that. It has a distant East Asian origin, but this hardly tells anything about origins of people today. It is merely a sign of some ancient migration.
 
Finns are not "completly isolated", that is absurd. Finns are typical North Europeans, although heavily genetically drifted. Finns also have 6% Siberian genes. If Finns are plotted in a principal component analysis with other Europeans, their genetic drift ususually pulls them heavily in one direction, "taking over" the diagram. The Siberian component is ususually not visible. If Finns are plotted along Europeans and more distant people, they tend to cluster with Swedes, Estonians and Northern Russians.

Swedes may be the closest relatives of Finns, but for Swedes, Finns are not the closest, due to the Finnish genetic drift and the closeness of Norwiegans and Danes.

Haplogroup N in Europe must be seen as a marker for mesolithic genes, there is no other way to look at it. It is most common in the Baltic states and Finland, both refugia for mesolithic European genes, autosomal studies are very clear on that. It has a distant East Asian origin, but this hardly tells anything about origins of people today. It is merely a sign of some ancient migration.

Finns will get their prehistory solved with the help of multidisciplinary science, having fun seeing it unravel.

Have you ever thought possible that Æsir–Vanir War could be linked to Sveas and Finnics?
If you take it literally that is what it basically says, could be that the Balto-Slavs have a better case, im not an expert of them.
But I can compile a long list of things that match from the stuff I have read and know about the cultures.
 
Finns are not "completly isolated", that is absurd. Finns are typical North Europeans, although heavily genetically drifted. Finns also have 6% Siberian genes. If Finns are plotted in a principal component analysis with other Europeans, their genetic drift ususually pulls them heavily in one direction, "taking over" the diagram. The Siberian component is ususually not visible. If Finns are plotted along Europeans and more distant people, they tend to cluster with Swedes, Estonians and Northern Russians.

Swedes may be the closest relatives of Finns, but for Swedes, Finns are not the closest, due to the Finnish genetic drift and the closeness of Norwiegans and Danes.

Haplogroup N in Europe must be seen as a marker for mesolithic genes, there is no other way to look at it. It is most common in the Baltic states and Finland, both refugia for mesolithic European genes, autosomal studies are very clear on that. It has a distant East Asian origin, but this hardly tells anything about origins of people today. It is merely a sign of some ancient migration.

I thought it depends on the area from where Swedes are coming.
With North Swedes,being closest to Finns while South Swedes,being closest to Norwegians and Danes.
EDIT:
Whatever,this is if you calculate the distance taking only paternal lines.
If you make an admixture test,depends on the test.
I do remember to have seen a test about Swedes from North Sweden,about Y DNA and I remember that N was making most of the paternal lineages there,but I do not remember where I have seen it.
Second was I1.
 
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I thought it depends on the area from where Swedes are coming.
With North Swedes,being closest to Finns while South Swedes,being closest to Norwegians and Danes.

Yep, Svealand, Norrland and Gotland are more close historically than Götaland.

But the strong mixing of population has been present in Sweden since its expansion.

With right testing you could find out the ancient links and population movements.
 

And what exactly is your point or new insight?
There may in fact be multiple layers of Siberian gene flow into northeastern Europe after the initial ANE gene flow, as our analyses

And app. that Siberian gene flow (admixture) is more recent in Russians than Finns (i.e. older/more rooted);
And you know who has the most Siberian (almost sole) admixture? Yakuts, Evenkis and Nganassans (and poss. also Nenets) all Mongoloid people; So what are you trying to convince me here by pointing out that Finns were originally Siberian (before Russians)??? Dont get it - and dont really care either;
 
Yeah, that seems to fit. According to K12b, Siberian admixture is ca. 7% in Finns, 2%-7% in Russians (depends on the sample) and 0% in Lithuanians. The Evenks have 84%, Yukagir have 80% and the Yakuts have 77%.
Siberian admixture can be found in very tiny traces also in other european countries, but Finns and Russians (Saami not tested) have the most (although still minor) in europe. I think that their siberian admixture is different from the more common "amerindian" admixture and it is probably not of paleolithic origin but came later. I'm not sure whether it is linked to Y-HG N, because Lithuantians have it too, but they have 0% siberian.

Finns indeed have about 6% Siberian genes, which is very remarkable. The admixture date is quite recent and the most likely candidate for bringing this component is of course the Saami-speaking people. They were originally a people very like the Finns, since the language is very close (I assume both were primarily caucasoid). They must have encountered a Siberian people on their more Eastern route to their present areas however, and picked up a notable Siberian component. They have most likely lived throughout Finland in recent historical times (this is a hot debate topic), and the Finnish Siberian component correlates with Saami population density. There has also been some Saami presence in Estonia, were there is a small Siberian component.

The Siberian component is not an ancestral Uralic component, however. The admixture date is far too recent and absent in many Uralic peoples (such as Latvians, who are N-rich and previously spoke Finnic languages).
 
And what exactly is your point or new insight?
There may in fact be multiple layers of Siberian gene flow into northeastern Europe after the initial ANE gene flow, as our analyses

And app. that Siberian gene flow (admixture) is more recent in Russians than Finns (i.e. older/more rooted);
And you know who has the most Siberian (almost sole) admixture? Yakuts, Evenkis and Nganassans (and poss. also Nenets) all Mongoloid people; So what are you trying to convince me here by pointing out that Finns were originally Siberian (before Russians)??? Dont get it - and dont really care either;

I hope they cut your funding, you should concentrate on fruit flies. :rolleyes:
 
Finns indeed have about 6% Siberian genes, which is very remarkable. The admixture date is quite recent and the most likely candidate for bringing this component is of course the Saami-speaking people. They were originally a people very like the Finns, since the language is very close (I assume both were primarily caucasoid). They must have encountered a Siberian people on their more Eastern route to their present areas however, and picked up a notable Siberian component. They have most likely lived throughout Finland in recent historical times (this is a hot debate topic), and the Finnish Siberian component correlates with Saami population density. There has also been some Saami presence in Estonia, were there is a small Siberian component.

The Siberian component is not an ancestral Uralic component, however. The admixture date is far too recent and absent in many Uralic peoples (such as Latvians, who are N-rich and previously spoke Finnic languages).

Possible. Looking more closely at the ADMIXTURE runs by Lazaridis, Patterson, et al., K20 in particular, shows Saami have indeed the highest Siberian admixture of all europeans: ~13% (judging bar size by eye). Interestingly they also have a slight West-Asian admixture, although less than in most europeans.
 
Possible. Looking more closely at the ADMIXTURE runs by Lazaridis, Patterson, et al., K20 in particular, shows Saami have indeed the highest Siberian admixture of all europeans: ~13% (judging bar size by eye). Interestingly they also have a slight West-Asian admixture, although less than in most europeans.

The Siberian admixture is indeed the highest among Norweigan Saami, and in general it peaks along the arctic coast in Europe. Most likely it is a very old component in Europe which has diffused into both Uralic and Slavic groups in Northeast Europe (a bit into Germanic too). This is the most widely held theory in Scandinavia AFAIK.

An alternative theory is of course that it is an ancestral Uralic component, but as it doesn't peak around the Urheimat, rather quite far from it in the Arctic region, it doesn't seem very likely. Additionally, both Mordvins and Finns have Siberian admixture of different ages that are both quite recent anyway, so they are probably recent influx.
 
I think your "pure" of whatever you want to be agenda, skews our posts (in your mind), giving you impression that we are attacking you and making you mongoloid. Obviously you think that Mongoloid means a lesser human being, for some reason.

I have not read the whole debate between Idun, Nobody1 and others, but I must say that at the beginning of the thread it feels like there were strong insinuations that Uralics are a mongoloid people, which most of them clearly are not (The Finnic-Permic bransch). If people do not wish to be misunderstood, they should clearly state what they mean. Also, the way the Siberian Uralic ethnic groups such as Khanty and Mansi are branded as "mongoloid" in this forum sure does sound a bit provocative and aggressive. Same with Saami, who apparently "look really mongoloid" according to some in this thread. Saami only have a minor Siberian component and Khanty and Mansi are inbetween Siberian and European. Not even all Nenets can be said to be clearly mongoloid.

I could also turn the argument around and claim that perhaps many believe that everyone wants to be a pure European, and if a Finn argues against a mongoloid origin for Uralic peoples, he must be ashamed of his partial or original "mongoloidness" and therefore wants deny facts. I for one (while not being a Finn) argue against the "mongoloid origin" because it is not scientific consensus and most often based on unscientific arguments. But having a "pure European origin" is not necesserily the number one dream of every non-Indo-European speaking European.
 

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