Are we on the brink of World War III?

Tomenable said:
At least 75% of Russians are willing to risk nuclear war:

https://activegroup.com.ua/2022/03/...vasion-of-russia-in-other-european-countries/
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If they being forced into one, they won't just surrender, obviously. Would the Americans? They almost started a nuclear war for Cuba, for Cuba for god's sake! That's not even remotely comparable to what the Ukraine means for Russia, yet alone Crimea. Its absurd to play the suprised guy if reading something like this, the Americans did worse and still do. Because they want this war to escalate on and on, not the Russians, which made various peace offers over the years, all being neglected the Ukrainians with the Americans in the background. Its not chance that things escalated so quickly once Biden came into office, because his administration pushed the issue and gave the Ukrainians free hand to attack Donbas. That war would have never have happened if the Americans would have made clear that they want peace in the regions. Selenski would have never started this on his own, and even if, it would have been a short war with Russia. But the way it goes, this will be a prolonged, cruel, very costly and dangerous war, because the Americans fuel it.
The Russians won't back up on Crimea and they won't stop unless the Americans give them a good offer, to end the sanctions, to give them a path for the peace. But the Biden administration itself is aggressive and being pushed even more by an incredibly aggressive and warmongering American media and political landscape.
I'm really reminded of some sort of "war hystery" we got 1914. The establishment in the USA always brought wars to other world regions, they didn't experience it themselves and they are no longer afraid of nuclear warfare. That's an extremely dangerous combination, they really push things to the limits and Selenski himself is bathing and enjoying his "heroic role model" character the current situation gaves him. A really dire situation and extremely dangerous much beyond the Russian-Ukrainian sphere.
 
Riverman said:
If they being forced into one, they won't just surrender, obviously. Would the Americans? They almost started a nuclear war for Cuba, for Cuba for god's sake! That's not even remotely comparable to what the Ukraine means for Russia, yet alone Crimea. Its absurd to play the suprised guy if reading something like this, the Americans did worse and still do. Because they want this war to escalate on and on, not the Russians, which made various peace offers over the years, all being neglected the Ukrainians with the Americans in the background. Its not chance that things escalated so quickly once Biden came into office, because his administration pushed the issue and gave the Ukrainians free hand to attack Donbas. That war would have never have happened if the Americans would have made clear that they want peace in the regions. Selenski would have never started this on his own, and even if, it would have been a short war with Russia. But the way it goes, this will be a prolonged, cruel, very costly and dangerous war, because the Americans fuel it.
The Russians won't back up on Crimea and they won't stop unless the Americans give them a good offer, to end the sanctions, to give them a path for the peace. But the Biden administration itself is aggressive and being pushed even more by an incredibly aggressive and warmongering American media and political landscape.
I'm really reminded of some sort of "war hystery" we got 1914. The establishment in the USA always brought wars to other world regions, they didn't experience it themselves and they are no longer afraid of nuclear warfare. That's an extremely dangerous combination, they really push things to the limits and Selenski himself is bathing and enjoying his "heroic role model" character the current situation gaves him. A really dire situation and extremely dangerous much beyond the Russian-Ukrainian sphere.
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Are you sane?

Why would the USA have allowed Russia to place nuclear weapons in CUBA just off the US coast in 1962?

Russia has always tried to get a warm water port in the Med for centuries and they often eyeballed the Ottoman capital Constantinople (Istanbul). Luckily Britain and France backed the Turks as in the Crimean War (1853-6).

BTW the Tatars were the original Crimeans not Slavic Russian invaders.
 
Again, Riverman, I ask you to explain briefly why you prefer authoritarian Russian rule in Europe to the soft power of the USA.

Europe is defenceless without the USA.
 
Vallicanus said:
Again, Riverman, I ask you to explain briefly why you prefer authoritarian Russian rule in Europe to the soft power of the USA.

Europe is defenceless without the USA.
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You make up two choices which don't exist. First, the American system and hegemony completely corrupted Europe and made it one big nursing home. Similarly, in the economical and societal field, the Europeans take up every crap from over the Atlantic, a lot of things which are not good and healthy for the European people and make the future for our people and children dreadful, because many of them have no future in a couple of generations at all.

But that's not even the only issue, because the USA exert a lot of pressure and control on the European societies, directly (state and major international institutions) and indirectly (financial, ideological, NGO and media power), whereas Russia is comparatively weak and just works as a potential partner for Europeans which try to become more indendent from the American dominance. Take for example the gas supply, as the most basic economic relation: How would it be better to be dependent from more expensive, ecologically and qualitatively much worse American fracking gas? That would make the situation for us Europeans much worse than having a partnership with Russia, which gives us much more freedom.

You come up with "authoritarian Russian rule in Europe", but Russia is in no shape to dominate the rest of Europe as of now, whereas the Americans can constantly blackmail and push Europeans on all occasions. The very idea of a Russian expansion to the West is right now blatantly absurd. And without the aggressive American interference, there wouldn't have been a war, there wouldn't have been a problem with Putin at all. The Americans don't even listen to their "allies and partners", they just proceeded with their aggressive intervention in Ukraine, against the will of most European nations.

Its nice to have them as a back up, probably, but only if they don't strangle Europe themselves and cause troubles which wouldn't exist without their interference. If Russia falls, the American stranglehold can't get any better. But who knows, probably it will, because there is no boogeyman any more. But Biden already stated he want a "New World Order" under American dominance. Putin is not as arrogant and megalomaniac, he just doesn't want American soldiers at his border and he want to have his people (Donbas Russians) in his state, that's all. In comparison to the Americans, that are modest and humble demands. Because the American establishment doesn't care for people, they care for institutional power over whole systems and states. Like invading Iraq, without any prelude which would have remotely justified that kind of mass murder there. But doesn't matter, if "the wrong people" (= Russians) fight for their brethren and minority groups, its bad, if the right guys kill way more people for much worse goals, like the Saudis in Yemen or the Americans in Iraq, for example, then its ok. I get it.

Ukrainians which want to reconquer Donbas and Crimea are no good guys for me. And if that's the sole reason for a war, which it is, then I see no just cause. Not at all.

There was no Russian threat before the Americans intervened and provoked them in a completely unnecessary and predictable way. The Liberal Hegemony by bombs is no just cause either.

Everybody can see by now that the Americans not just back up, but actually push the Ukrainians to confrontation with the Russians, because they don't want a peace which would allow the Russians to get out heads up. That was their main goal all along.
 
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Riverman said:
You make up two choices which don't exist. First, the American system and hegemony completely corrupted Europe and made it one big nursing home. Similarly, in the economical and societal field, the Europeans take up every crap from over the Atlantic, a lot of things which are not good and healthy for the European people and make the future for our people and children dreadful, because many of them have no future in a couple of generations at all.

But that's not even the only issue, because the USA exert a lot of pressure and control on the European societies, directly (state and major international institutions) and indirectly (financial, ideological, NGO and media power), whereas Russia is comparatively weak and just works as a potential partner for Europeans which try to become more indendent from the American dominance. Take for example the gas supply, as the most basic economic relation: How would it be better to be dependent from more expensive, ecologically and qualitatively much worse American fracking gas? That would make the situation for us Europeans much worse than having a partnership with Russia, which gives us much more freedom.

You come up with "authoritarian Russian rule in Europe", but Russia is in no shape to dominate the rest of Europe as of now, whereas the Americans can constantly blackmail and push Europeans on all occasions. The very idea of a Russian expansion to the West is right now blatantly absurd. And without the aggressive American interference, there wouldn't have been a war, there wouldn't have been a problem with Putin at all. The Americans don't even listen to their "allies and partners", they just proceeded with their aggressive intervention in Ukraine, against the will of most European nations.

Its nice to have them as a back up, probably, but only if they don't strangle Europe themselves and cause troubles which wouldn't exist without their interference. If Russia falls, the American stranglehold can't get any better. But who knows, probably it will, because there is no boogeyman any more. But Biden already stated he want a "New World Order" under American dominance. Putin is not as arrogant and megalomaniac, he just doesn't want American soldiers at his border and he want to have his people (Donbas Russians) in his state, that's all. In comparison to the Americans, that are modest and humble demands. Because the American establishment doesn't care for people, they care for institutional power over whole systems and states. Like invading Iraq, without any prelude which would have remotely justified that kind of mass murder there. But doesn't matter, if "the wrong people" (= Russians) fight for their brethren and minority groups, its bad, if the right guys kill way more people for much worse goals, like the Saudis in Yemen or the Americans in Iraq, for example, then its ok. I get it.

Ukrainians which want to reconquer Donbas and Crimea are no good guys for me. And if that's the sole reason for a war, which it is, then I see no just cause. Not at all.

There was no Russian threat before the Americans intervened and provoked them in a completely unnecessary and predictable way. The Liberal Hegemony by bombs is no just cause either.

Everybody can see by now that the Americans not just back up, but actually push the Ukrainians to confrontation with the Russians, because they don't want a peace which would allow the Russians to get out heads up. That was their main goal all along.
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The Americans corrupted Europe? They were part of the liberators of the NAZI's and are an established democracy (not without failures but democracy without failures doesn't exist), their influence on for example Germany was a good one imo.

a lot of things which are not good and healthy for the European people and make the future for our people and children dreadful, because many of them have no future in a couple of generations at all.
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My goodness mister pessimistic, we have never lived so long.....and in Europe mostly in good health.

I don't cheer for the US or something like that, there are some bad sides, I know (like in my or your country). But to blame the US for our European failures I don't get that.

'You come up with "authoritarian Russian rule in Europe", but Russia is in no shape to dominate the rest of Europe....'
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One thing is clear as we face the day to day pictures of the war in the Ukraine the more ugly totalitarian it gets from the side of Russia. No power? They take us hostage...and the only reason is: nukes. Otherwise the Putin regime was blown away right now, and I wouldn't shed a tear, on the contrary.....
 
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Northener said:
I don't cheer for the US or something like that, there are some bad sides, I know (like in my or your country). But to blame the US for our European failures I don't get that.
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The US financial, military and media-propaganda machine, as well as the networks they established, are just that big and dominant, that they dictate the discourse and developments in Europe. Like any kind of "trend" or idiotic ideological construct, new business model or whatever makes it over the Atlantic and the European states and societies just swallow it, sooner rather than later.
You can play naive, but that doesn't change the facts.
 
Riverman said:
The US financial, military and media-propaganda machine, as well as the networks they established, are just that big and dominant, that they dictate the discourse and developments in Europe. Like any kind of "trend" or idiotic ideological construct, new business model or whatever makes it over the Atlantic and the European states and societies just swallow it, sooner rather than later.
You can play naive, but that doesn't change the facts.
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I prefer a Pax Americana, it has given (West) Europeans peace and prosperity.
And no I don't follow eery trend that flows from the US to Europe, on the contrary.
But in matters on democracy vs authoritarian rule I give them the benefit (of the doubt).
 
Northener said:
I prefer a Pax Americana, it has given (West) Europeans peace and prosperity.
And no I don't follow eery trend that flows from the US to Europe, on the contrary.
But in matters on democracy vs authoritarian rule I give them the benefit (of the doubt).
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The problem is that the USA are not getting more free and democratic any more, but rather the contrary. We approach authoritarian and totalitarian rule in the USA as well. It's just the methods which are still somewhat different at the moment. Its more about social and economic destruction of dissent, but the prisons and camps might follow at any point.

One of the crucial aspects is always free speech and thought, as well as how much choice individuals have concerning family and property. The new digital era initially brought more freedom for the people, but the oligarchy didn't like what free people thought and did, so they began to censor things. As they saw its easy to do and the resistance is weak, the establishment extended the censor & control project to more and more areas.

Take for example the Chinese experiments with a social credit system: They will come, they are already in preparation or local experimental stage in the West as well. Just the "values" and "goals" are sometimes different in detail, but the general principle and the idea of making people more obedient is just the same. We're approaching no more free world anywhere, its rather about other decisions which divide the regimes, but sometimes its not even that, but just the respective oligarchies competing with each other for power, wealth, people and resources.

I never said I would prefer the Russian approach to many things for Europe, that's beside the point.
 
Riverman said:
The problem is that the USA are not getting more free and democratic any more, but rather the contrary. We approach authoritarian and totalitarian rule in the USA as well. It's just the methods which are still somewhat different at the moment. Its more about social and economic destruction of dissent, but the prisons and camps might follow at any point.

One of the crucial aspects is always free speech and thought, as well as how much choice individuals have concerning family and property. The new digital era initially brought more freedom for the people, but the oligarchy didn't like what free people thought and did, so they began to censor things. As they saw its easy to do and the resistance is weak, the establishment extended the censor & control project to more and more areas.

Take for example the Chinese experiments with a social credit system: They will come, they are already in preparation or local experimental stage in the West as well. Just the "values" and "goals" are sometimes different in detail, but the general principle and the idea of making people more obedient is just the same. We're approaching no more free world anywhere, its rather about other decisions which divide the regimes, but sometimes its not even that, but just the respective oligarchies competing with each other for power, wealth, people and resources.

I never said I would prefer the Russian approach to many things for Europe, that's beside the point.
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Well apples and oranges, of course you can discuss about big tech etc etc. But really there is a difference between the totalitarian absolute authoritarian way of the Putin regime and China and what is going on in the US (without call them saints) or Europe. Sense of proportion Riverman!
 
Northener said:
Well apples and oranges, of course you can discuss about big tech etc etc. But really there is a difference between the totalitarian absolute authoritarian way of the Putin regime and China and what is going on in the US (without call them saints) or Europe. Sense of proportion Riverman!
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I agree, but that's beside the point. The real problem is that if the US establishment gets even more dominant globally, they won't get any better. So what I want is kind of a balance of power and alternatives on some aspects. It's about Europe being and getting more independent and making its own choices, as well as the USA reconsidering its current path, rather than exchanging one hegemon with another.
This war being led by the US establishment under false premises and with the goal of a regime change, to just enlarge its power and control system globally. That's the problem. China is, potentially, a future threat, Russia is only a threat within its direct sphere of influence, unless its using its ABC arsenal. The USA-UK on the other hand are in control of things and use their power in a malicious way (too). Its not in Europe's interest if their oligarchy gets even stronger and Russia destroyed.
It was, if talking about China, even a mistake for the US-UK club to alienate Russia as they did. Because this pushed Russia into the arms of China. This gamble only pays off for the Western oligarchs if Russia being brought to its knees and can be overtaken by them, and this is where it gets really dangerous, because they invest too much into the military victory of Ukraine, for that very reason. And this can lead to the worst case scenario, which is a global escalation and World War, potentially with weapons of mass destruction.
 
Riverman said:
I agree, but that's beside the point. The real problem is that if the US establishment gets even more dominant globally, they won't get any better. So what I want is kind of a balance of power and alternatives on some aspects. It's about Europe being and getting more independent and making its own choices, as well as the USA reconsidering its current path, rather than exchanging one hegemon with another.
This war being led by the US establishment under false premises and with the goal of a regime change, to just enlarge its power and control system globally. That's the problem. China is, potentially, a future threat, Russia is only a threat within its direct sphere of influence, unless its using its ABC arsenal. The USA-UK on the other hand are in control of things and use their power in a malicious way (too). Its not in Europe's interest if their oligarchy gets even stronger and Russia destroyed.
It was, if talking about China, even a mistake for the US-UK club to alienate Russia as they did. Because this pushed Russia into the arms of China. This gamble only pays off for the Western oligarchs if Russia being brought to its knees and can be overtaken by them, and this is where it gets really dangerous, because they invest too much into the military victory of Ukraine, for that very reason. And this can lead to the worst case scenario, which is a global escalation and World War, potentially with weapons of mass destruction.
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First of all, you can put everything upside down but the decision to invade was basically an act of Putin! No one else....And if ypu have read his "essay" from aug 2021 it was just a matter of time.

Give evidence that the US provoked and that the goal of the US is regime change...I see nothing of that whatsoever.

The real problem is more the decline of the US power than the upheaval.
 
Northener said:
The real problem is more the decline of the US power than the upheaval.
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That's true in a way, but the problem behind it is that the US establishment tries to transition to a new mode of control which will allow it to survive and even profit from the bank and money crisis, as well as the new digital world and its opportunities. To achieve that, they went into "aggressive" mode both internally and externally, which provoked things. The reason is they now feel the pressure to prepare and finish things in time. That's pretty much contrary to the Chinese, which are kind of laid-back in comparison, because they are in no hurry. This kind of hurry and timing stress for the Western oligarchy causes a lot of these troubles. The expansion and manipulation in Ukraine was part of that.
 
Riverman said:
I agree, but that's beside the point. The real problem is that if the US establishment gets even more dominant globally, they won't get any better. So what I want is kind of a balance of power and alternatives on some aspects. It's about Europe being and getting more independent and making its own choices, as well as the USA reconsidering its current path, rather than exchanging one hegemon with another.
This war being led by the US establishment under false premises and with the goal of a regime change, to just enlarge its power and control system globally. That's the problem. China is, potentially, a future threat, Russia is only a threat within its direct sphere of influence, unless its using its ABC arsenal. The USA-UK on the other hand are in control of things and use their power in a malicious way (too). Its not in Europe's interest if their oligarchy gets even stronger and Russia destroyed.
It was, if talking about China, even a mistake for the US-UK club to alienate Russia as they did. Because this pushed Russia into the arms of China. This gamble only pays off for the Western oligarchs if Russia being brought to its knees and can be overtaken by them, and this is where it gets really dangerous, because they invest too much into the military victory of Ukraine, for that very reason. And this can lead to the worst case scenario, which is a global escalation and World War, potentially with weapons of mass destruction.
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Everything you have said on this topic in this thread has been correct with the exception of China even being a potential threat. They are not a threat to us (the real people not the U.S. controlled leadership classes). Their civilization is land based, static. And their sphere of influence doesn't overlap with ours at all. The Chinese just want healthy trade and development, and if you have respect for their people and culture, all the better. We've had a good working relationship on these grounds since the days of the Romans. On top of all of that: the Chinese are just plain, civilized people much like our own: There's not a lot of crime or violence committed in China or among their diasporas, and their TFR is too low to actively expand anywhere in great numbers.

China is not a theat. At all. Neither is Russia unless you actively prod it and try to annex parts of its civilization (Ukraine/Belarus) or finance Islamic terrorists along its border regions (Chechnya) like the U.S. has done for decades.

Everyone with common sense should understand that the actual existential threat to us are the imperialistic and utterly insane Anglo-Saxons, alongside their pets and partners in crime in the Islamic world: Turkey, Saudi Arabia and CIA-backed Islamist groups. These are the peoples who actually work towards not only our destruction but that of human civilization from the west to east and south, using the economic/political/social media/NGO/human rights nexus.

So let us hope that Russia wins this war and deposes the coup regime in Kiev, China eclipses the U.S. as soon as possible, and more unaligned countries begin to emerge. Then we can return to the historical norm, which is the multipolar world order, where all peoples, cultures and civilizations can exist and do as they please irrespective of what the American neurotics think.
 
Jovialis said:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/10/06/ukraine-russia-war-live-updates/8194683001/
The insane terrorists Biden and Putin are going to kill us all. We should have them fight one on one instead.
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We are on the the hottest phase on the the brink of a nuclear disaster-since the Cuba Crisis- I believe.

The idea of ​​a nuclear deterrent is based on the idea that those who dare to throw a nuclear bomb will get it out of their mind because it leads to self-destruction. That idea does not assume that a 'leader' chooses this. And that's what I think is the weakest part of the whole theory, I've shown it before, but in Russia we see this now, and what if Hitler had the possibility to push press the red button? Putin is really facing this now in some way.



And when that happens we see this, real end of times.....

 
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