ATP9 (MBA Iberia, ca. 1600 BC)

Tomenable

Well-known member
Messages
5,427
Reaction score
1,338
Points
113
Location
Poland
Ethnic group
Polish
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b-L617
mtDNA haplogroup
W6a
Finally a Bronze Age Iberian uploaded to GEDmatch:

ATP9 (Middle Bronze Age Iberia, 1700-1518 BC).


GEDmatch kit number: M116706

Results in Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 44.39
2 West_Med 37.4
3 North_Sea 17.71
4 Baltic 0.49

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French_Basque 12.34

2 Spanish_Aragon 17.77
3 Southwest_French 18.44
4 Spanish_Cantabria 18.47
5 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 19.44
6 Spanish_Valencia 20.59
7 Spanish_Andalucia 20.65
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 22.53
9 Spanish_Murcia 22.72
10 Spanish_Cataluna 22.81
11 Spanish_Extremadura 23.01
12 Portuguese 23.92
13 Spanish_Galicia 24.93
14 North_Italian 28.02
15 Sardinian 28.73
16 French 29.09
17 South_Dutch 32.41
18 Southwest_English 32.89
19 Tuscan 33.54
20 Southeast_English 34.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.9% French_Basque + 20.1% Sardinian @ 10.35
2 100% French_Basque + 0% Abhkasian @ 12.34
3 100% French_Basque + 0% Adygei @ 12.34

4 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Hazara @ 12.34
5 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 12.34
6 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Tadjik @ 12.34

7 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Turkmen @ 12.34
8 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 12.34
9 100% French_Basque + 0% Algerian @ 12.34
10 100% French_Basque + 0% Algerian_Jewish @ 12.34
11 100% French_Basque + 0% Altaian @ 12.34
12 100% French_Basque + 0% Anzick-1 @ 12.34
13 100% French_Basque + 0% Armenian @ 12.34
14 100% French_Basque + 0% Ashkenazi @ 12.34
15 100% French_Basque + 0% Assyrian @ 12.34
16 100% French_Basque + 0% Austrian @ 12.34
17 100% French_Basque + 0% Austroasiatic_Ho @ 12.34
18 100% French_Basque + 0% Azeri @ 12.34
19 100% French_Basque + 0% Balkar @ 12.34
20 100% French_Basque + 0% Balochi @ 12.34

==========================

In a PCA (based on Eurogenes K15 scores), ATP9 plots far away from modern Spanish guy:

http://i.imgur.com/zDUZ41R.png

zDUZ41R.png
 
What do you think ???

IMO it shows that there were no Indo-Europeans in Iberia before 1500 BC.
 
IMO it shows that there were no Indo-Europeans in Iberia before 1500 BC.

To me ATP9 shows the opposite. In every ADMIXTURE test he shows an ANE-signal. He's the first ancient Iberian genome with Steppe ancestry. It's probably not a councidence he is our only non pre-Bell Beaker Iberian genome. Bell Beaker may have brought R1b-DF27, Steppe ancestry, and IE languages(maybe Celtic).
 
To me ATP9 shows the opposite. In every ADMIXTURE test he shows an ANE-signal. He's the first ancient Iberian genome with Steppe ancestry.

But only less than 3%. Eurogenes ANE K7:

Population
ANE2.79
ASE-
WHG-UHG74.26
East_Eurasian-
West_African-
East_African0.21
ENF22.74

 
But only less than 3%. Eurogenes ANE K7:

Population
ANE2.79
ASE-
WHG-UHG74.26
East_Eurasian-
West_African-
East_African0.21
ENF22.74

Yet in every test he consistently shows an ANE signal. No matter how you spin it he had Steppe ancestry.
 
You are probably right. We should check all available Copper Age Iberians for comparison.

Here are some recently uploaded ones (by MfA):

GEDmatch / Sample

M422959 / ATP16 Iberia Pre-Bell Beaker/Chalcolithic [3211-2866 BC] X2c -
M784782 / I1281 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] H1t -
M734278 / I1303 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] U3a1 Y-DNA = I2a1a1-L158
M216291 / I1314 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] J2a1a1 Y-DNA = G2a-PF3141
M855364 / I1280 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] J1c1 -
M874014 / I1274 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] H3 Y-DNA = I2a2-L181

I checked ATP16 (M422959) and there is no ANE admixture:

Population
ANE-
ASE-
WHG-UHG68.62
East_Eurasian-
West_African-
East_African-
ENF31.38
 
Interestingly, I have R1b-DF27>L617 and this subclade (L617) is ca. 4300 years old.

However, there was probably no R1b and no ANE admixture in Iberia 4300 years ago.

So it seems that L617 migrated from Poland to Iberia rather than the other way around.

Unetice culture is also around 4300 years old. Maybe L617 was originally part of Unetice:

zqudwdp.png


Compare that with the modern distribution of R1b-L617 (the map is incomplete of course):

L617_distribution.png


L617 correlates with Celts and with mining (for example it is very common in Cornwall):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Cornwall_and_Devon#Stone_Age_and_early_Bronze_Age

Mining in Cornwall has existed from the early Bronze Age Britain around 2150 BC.

It is believed that the Unetice culture were Proto-Celts.
 
You can't compare the processes that went on in Central Europe, much less a northern Europe which was very low in population, to what went on in southern Europe.

Look at the Yamnaya percentages for Spaniards:
Haak-et-al-2015-Figure-3-Admixture-Proportions-in-Modern-DNA-With-Linguistic-and-Historical-Origins-Added.png


It makes perfect sense to me that he's Basque like.
 
You can't compare the processes that went on in Central Europe, much less a northern Europe which was very low in population, to what went on in southern Europe.

Look at the Yamnaya percentages for Spaniards:

It makes perfect sense to me that he's Basque like.

But I wonder how could R1b in Iberia or Italy rise to so high frequencies despite relatively small autosomal impact.

Obviously there was still some autosomal impact, because Remedello people resembled Sardinians, not Italians.
 
My hypothesis for today (based on DNA, but in fact it is in agreement with archaeology) is that Proto-Celts (maybe Proto-Italo-Celts?), Proto-Germanics and Proto-Balto-Slavs all had their ethnogenesis during the Bronze Age, in 3 archaeological cultures:

1) Nordic Bronze Age = Proto-Germanic
2) Unetice culture = Proto-[Italo]-Celtic
3) Trzciniec culture = Proto-Balto-Slavs

We already have ancient DNA from 1) and 2) and very soon we will have ancient DNA also from 3).

Interestingly, present-day Poland is located in the middle between those 3 archaeological cultures:

https://i.imgur.com/KzvBnze.png

KzvBnze.png
 
Last edited:
If ATP9 is the first ancient from Iberia with Steppe admixture, then it means that it took Indo-Europeans ca. 1500 years to get to Iberia from the Steppe. Assuming that they started expanding from the Steppe ca. 3500-3000 BC, and first groups came to Spain ca. 2000-1500 BC. Of course those groups did not enter Iberia directly from the Steppe, but from somewhere in the middle of Europe.
 
What do you think ???

IMO it shows that there were no Indo-Europeans in Iberia before 1500 BC.

I think that Indo-Europeans reached parts of Iberia (e.g. south-east Spain) as early as 1800 BCE, as this is when the Bronze Age appears, but spread very slowly in a patchwork manner around the penninsula, and only really covered most (but not all) regions by 1200 BCE.

This MBA Iberian genome clearly shows some sign of Steppe ancestry. It is obviously much lower than in Central Europe a millennium earlier because Steppe ancestry progressively got diluted at each generation of interbreeding with local women. I would be very interested to see this sample's Dodecad K12b to see the percentage of Gedrosia and North European. Is it available at GEDMatch? (believe it or not I do not have a GEDMatch account yet).
 
I think that Indo-Europeans reached parts of Iberia (e.g. south-east Spain) as early as 1800 BCE, as this is when the Bronze Age appears, but spread very slowly in a patchwork manner around the penninsula, and only really covered most (but not all) regions by 1200 BCE.

This MBA Iberian genome clearly shows some sign of Steppe ancestry. It is obviously much lower than in Central Europe a millennium earlier because Steppe ancestry progressively got diluted at each generation of interbreeding with local women. I would be very interested to see this sample's Dodecad K12b to see the percentage of Gedrosia and North European. Is it available at GEDMatch? (believe it or not I do not have a GEDMatch account yet).

Here are his Dodecad K12b results

1 Atlantic_Med 67.21
2 North_European 24.2
3 Caucasus 7.61
4 Northwest_African 0.9
5 Southeast_Asian 0.08
 
And now, here is what he gets by using K7 Basal-rich and nMonte


"Baalberge_MN:I0560" 44.3
"Iberia_MN:I0408" 18
"Iceman_MN:Iceman" 16.5
"Loschbour:Loschbour" 15
"Yamnaya_Temrta:RISE546" 6.2
 
Is it available at GEDMatch? (believe it or not I do not have a GEDMatch account yet).

Yes it is available. You can still create a GEDmatch account even if you did not test your own DNA.

And you can use it for testing other DNA samples (as long as you know their kit numbers, of course).

==========================

Here is a list of post-Neolithic ancient Y-DNA and GEDmatch kits from Iberia and Italy:

Y-DNA haplogroups and autosomal DNA of Copper Age Iberians:

Sample / (dating) / Y-DNA / GEDmatch kit / Single Pop. Sharing in Eurogenes K15:

ATP16 (3211-2866 BC) - woman - M422959 - Sardinians
ATP12 (3010-2879 BC) - I2a2a2
ATP17 (3007–2871 BC) - I2a2a
ATP2 (2899-2678 BC) - H2 - M849224 - Sardinians
I1300 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M547763 - Sardinians
I1281 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M784782 - Sardinians
I1303 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a1a1 - M734278 - Sardinians
I0581 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a2a1
I1284 (2880-2630 BC) - I
I1302 (2880-2630 BC) - G2a2b2b
I1314 (2880-2630 BC) - G2a - M216291 - Sardinians
I1280 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M855364 - Sardinians
I1274 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a2 - M874014 - Basques
I1277 (2568-2346 BC) - I2a2a

Bronze Age:

ATP9 (1700-1518 BC) - woman - M116706 - Basques

Y-DNA haplogroups and autosomal DNA of Remedello culture Italians:

Sample / (dating) / Y-DNA / GEDmatch kit / Single Pop. Sharing in Eurogenes K15:

RISE487 (3483-3107 BC) - I2a1a1 - T699825 - Sardinians
RISE489 (2908-2578 BC) - I2a1a1a - T135721 - Sardinians
RISE486 (2134-1773 BC) - I2a1a1a - T319214 - Sardinians

Simply SHOCKING !!! "Genetical Sardinians" everywhere. And a few Basques. But no any R1b.

According to Genetiker, there was one R1b (ATP3), but this doesn't change the general picture:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/y-snp-calls-from-copper-and-bronze-age-spain/
 
My hypothesis for today (based on DNA, but in fact it is in agreement with archaeology) is that Proto-Celts (maybe Proto-Italo-Celts?), Proto-Germanics and Proto-Balto-Slavs all had their ethnogenesis during the Bronze Age, in 3 archaeological cultures:

1) Nordic Bronze Age = Proto-Germanic
2) Unetice culture = Proto-[Italo]-Celtic
3) Trzciniec culture = Proto-Balto-Slavs

We already have ancient DNA from 1) and 2) and very soon we will have ancient DNA also from 3).

Interestingly, present-day Poland is located in the middle between those 3 archaeological cultures:

https://i.imgur.com/KzvBnze.png

KzvBnze.png

It's really not a hypothesis if you do not provide evidence let alone flesh out the reasoning behind your assertions.
 
not to discuss but : is ANE everytime a signal of Steppes, North Caucasus?
 
But I wonder how could R1b in Iberia or Italy rise to so high frequencies despite relatively small autosomal impact.

Obviously there was still some autosomal impact, because Remedello people resembled Sardinians, not Italians.
Just about no where in southern Europe is Steppe ancestry small. 20-30% isn't small and you have to consider it was brought to Southern Europe admixed.
 
Here are his Dodecad K12b results

1 Atlantic_Med 67.21
2 North_European 24.2
3 Caucasus 7.61
4 Northwest_African 0.9
5 Southeast_Asian 0.08

Thanks. No Gedrosia though, so I am not so sure this sample was Indo-European. Even diluted he should show a few percents.
 

This thread has been viewed 47654 times.

Back
Top