Average CWC skull metrics

The shortest males in Europe are in Southern Europe (especially in Italy, Iberia, Bulgaria, Romania).

North-Eastern Europe has rather tall males, Poles with the highest % of R1a in Europe are also tall.

Ukrainians are shorter than Poles. In terms of Y-DNA, they have less R1a and more I2a than Poles.

But I guess it can be related to nutrition as well (Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe).
 
Tomenable said:
The shortest males in Europe are in Southern Europe (especially in Italy, Iberia, Bulgaria, Romania).

North-Eastern Europe has rather tall males, Poles with the highest % of R1a in Europe are also tall.

Ukrainians are shorter than Poles. In terms of Y-DNA, they have less R1a and more I2a than Poles.

But I guess it can be related to nutrition as well (Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe).
Click to expand...

Poles are not very tall. Some of them, perhaps. Certain areas in Poland can have higher concentrations of I. In the Baltic, Lithuania is an outlier. Even then they are not very remarkable. Really, it would seem that Sweden, northern Holland, Herzegovina, and Montenegro are the tallest. And I have seen some tall Ukrainians, especially westerners. Romania has poor nutrition, and even then I have seen some tall Romanians. I do understand that a few people are not good representatives of entire nations, but statistically there does seem to be a pattern. For example I have only seen a handful of adult male Bosnian Croats under 178cm, and the vast majority of Tosk Albanians below that height from what I've seen.
 
Poles are not very tall.
Click to expand...

Taller than the English, the Austrians, the Swiss, etc., etc. on average.
 
Dinarid said:
Yes, always! I am so comforted when I come across Croatians- I'm sure all Herzegovinian Croats feel the same. One day we will be free from damned Islam.

I actually agree with you about correlating racial type with DNA, and I've posted about this on another thread. I was instead talking about the original appearance of the people in which the mutation for this haplogroup occurred. And actually, Y-DNA plays a very large role in a man's height. Other than that I think there may be some genes on the Y chromosome that affect appearance that we haven't discovered but yes, I generally agree that their importance is minimal compared to autosomal.

I understand that Dalmatian Croats can be tall, and I seen many who are. But, in some coastal towns (the largest example being Dubrovnik) you see a lot of really short people. I mean like men under 170cm. And they have little features too unlike the beak like you and I and most Croats (they also lack what I've noticed in least in my case and most others I've seen, the very prominent chin), but for some reason the men seem to have particularly strong, wide jaws.

I guess I may be biased to what short means, because I'm 192cm, but the point remains. Zagreb I believe is more mixed, because of its size importance on the national level there is likely to be greater influence from different gene pools. I've seen both very tall and very short people in Zagreb. The rest of Slavonia seems to be on the shorter side though.

You describe yourself as "Baltid" by which I assume you mean short, broad, flat face, but with the exception being tall stature and a long, prominent beak nose. That sounds like Blanka Vlašić before her nose job. And yes, your height and nasal profile sound like someone with I2, typically. I am not claiming this will always be the case.

Anyway I would love to take a poll of men on Eupedia for haplogroup and height to see if there is any correlation. I'm sure that autosomal admixture will have less of an influence if we take into account the American members of Western European descent, personally I believe that an Anglo-Saxon-American man with I1 will not have much genetic distance with a man of the same ethnic group but R1b. Also, perhaps the I2 in Slavonia accounts for the tall people there?

My point, which I have now reconsidered, about R-Mongoloids, was that the first men to carry R had a Mongoloid appearance. Now again I reconsider due to Tomenable's claims that Caucasoids and Mongoloids separated later, so perhaps they had an archaic appearance that is rare in modern times before intermarrying into Caucasoid and Mongoloid populations. I think maybe the Ket people (indigenous Siberian, highest frequency of Q) retain these features?
Click to expand...

Greetings to Herzegovian brothers.

There is a pettern in correlation of hg-I and tallnes, It's quite obvious. Tallest being Dinaric alps, Southern Scandinavia and Netherlands, all being rich in I lineages.

But I'm not certain about what the original I*-type looked like. Cro-magnid apperance to the side, which was predominately darker pigmented, lighter eyed and robust phenotype. However, majority of I2a-carriers among Slavs look rather dinarid than Cro-Magnid, excluding pockets in Montenegro (and Montenegro has lot more E-V13 than rest of dinarides), while North Germanics look more nordic.

It could be sexual selection and admixture with different groups, ofcourse. Yet the height remains the obvious link.

Regrading Dalmatians, I don't see Zagora Dalmatians being different than Herzegovians. Coastal Dalmatians may carry more ancient admixture, be it Greek, Italian, or in case of Dubrovnik, Sephardic Jewish. Coastal cities were least ethnically homogenous and it may have affected their apperance (height). I generally agree with you that coastal Dalmatians, be unmixed Croat or not, look more mediterranean compared to Herzegovians. They have more variety as well.

I'm not Slavonian but they are shorther than Southern Croats. Slavonia is most ethnically mixed area in Croatia, with Czech, Slovak, Hungarian ancestry being quite common. There are numerous Slavonians of Herzegovian ancestry, and they surely do increase average height in region ! Region of Central Croatia, where I'm from, is ganerally taller than Slavonia, and less mixed, except pockets of Serbs. And I'm not sure if R1a is more common in Central Croatia than I2, I feel the ratio would be pretty balanced.

My phenotype is hard to classify, I have broad forehead, broadest at cheekbone area, and narrow jaw. V-shaped, or triangual face, prominent nose, with medium pigmentation. I'm not sure what phenotype suits it best, I am probably mixed.
Yet autosomaly I'll be closer to you than to R1a-Serb or Hungarian, most likely.

Lastly, oldest found of R1 Mal'ta boy, ancestral to all R1-men was neither caucasoid nor mongoloid but as Tomanable said, something arhaic and extinct. Indo-Europeans appear to have been more ''mongoloid'' genetically (even tough mongoloids doesn't describe it best, rather Siberian/Central Asian), but predominately they were West Eurasian Caucasians. We need more ancient aDNA to know the whole picture.
 
Tomenable said:
The shortest males in Europe are in Southern Europe (especially in Italy, Iberia, Bulgaria, Romania).

North-Eastern Europe has rather tall males, Poles with the highest % of R1a in Europe are also tall.

Ukrainians are shorter than Poles. In terms of Y-DNA, they have less R1a and more I2a than Poles.

But I guess it can be related to nutrition as well (Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe).
Click to expand...

I have worked among Poles, Russians and Ukrainians for shorter period of time, and Poles appear tallest of the group.

Poles looked taller and more robust than either Russians or Ukrainians, according to my experience Russians were shortest and more gracile. I'm not sure if regional origin has something to do with it, as Poles I ackquainted with were mostly Silesians, where German settlers lived for centuries. None of them had German sounding surnames or names, and I am familar with the fact that lot of Eastern Poles moved westwards after World War II, but I'm curious is there height and Y-cromosome distribution variety among Polish regions ?
 
When you say Russians do you mean ethnic Russians or any citizens of Russia?

Because as you know there are hundreds of ethnic minority groups in Russia.
 
were mostly Silesians, where German settlers lived for centuries.
Click to expand...

I have made detailed research on Silesian genetics recently.

Here are haplogroup frequencies in Silesia before the World Wars (sample size = 100):

Upper Silesia (sample size = 48):

Haplo R1a --- 63% (30 men)
Haplo R1b --- 10% (5 men)
Haplo I1 ----- 6% (3 men)
Haplo E1b ---- 6% (3 men)
Haplo J2 ----- 4% (2 men)
Haplo N1c --- 4% (2 men)
Haplo J1 ---- 2% (1 man)
Haplo G ----- 2% (1 man)

Lower Silesia (sample size = 48):

Haplo R1a --- 48% (23 men)
Haplo I1 ----- 19% (9 men)
Haplo R1b --- 10% (5 men)
Haplo G ----- 8% (4 men)
Haplo J2 ----- 4% (2 men)
Haplo I2a ---- 2% (1 man)
Haplo E1b ---- 2% (1 man)
Haplo N1c --- 2% (1 man)
Haplo J1 ---- 2% (1 man)
Haplo T ----- 2% (1 man)

Entire Silesia (sample size = 100):

Haplo R1a --- 54% (54 men)
Haplo I1 ----- 13% (13 men)
Haplo R1b --- 11% (11 men)
Haplo J2 ----- 5% (5 men)
Haplo G ----- 5% (5 men)
Haplo E1b ---- 4% (4 men)
Haplo N1c --- 3% (3 men)
Haplo J1 ---- 2% (2 men)
Haplo I2a --- 1% (1 man)
Haplo Q ----- 1% (1 man)
Haplo T ----- 1% (1 man)

Surnames, places of birth, years of birth:

kit # - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade); all of these persons were born before WW2:

Haplo I1 - 13 / 100:

kit #372952 - Silesia, RAUTENBERG (M253+)
kit #E14316 - Żagań, VON NAUMANN (Z58+)
kit #N11115 - Stary Kisielin/Zielona Góra, LIEHR (Z58+)
kit #468007 - Boronów, BULLA (S2077/S2078+)
kit #91645 - Dąbrówka Dolna, WELNA (Z63+)
kit #119162 - Kobyla Góra, MAGNUSKI (L1237+)
kit #188658 - Pietrzykowice, BIALEK (S2078+)
kit #228663 - Karvina, KOPEL (Z140+)
kit #268090 - Rokliny, FRANKE (M253+)
kit #115240 - Stobrawa, DEUTSCHER (Z2336/L22+)
kit #N37278 - Wrocław, DEMSKE (M253+)
kit #167103 - Sośnicowice/Tarnowskie Góry, BOTUR (Z63+)
kit #155178 - Kłodzko, ROSENBERGER (Z140+)

Haplo R1b - 11 / 100:

kit #227479 - Cieszyn, FIEDLER (M269+)
kit #E1877 - Lower Silesia, QUADE (M269+)
kit #E2541 - Ludwigsthal, SCHIRM (U106, S10185+)
kit #132073 - Kotulin Mały, KORUS (M269+)
kit #B4978 - Ostrava, SELIGA (U152, DF103+)
kit #422423 - Oława, KARPEL (U152, Z49+)
kit #N89895 - Żagań, SCHULZ (U106+)
kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)
kit #E4911, E14624 - Kolsko, LEFEBER (P312, L21+)
kit #N11619 - Okunin, SCHILLING (M269+)
kit #176123 - Gliwice, KONIECZNY (Z2103, BY593+)

Haplo J2 - 5 / 100:

kit #B27771 - Suszec, JURECZKO (Z631+)
kit #278599 - Wrocław, GABEL (M92+)
kit #N27660 - Zabrze, NN (M172+)
kit #N45394 - Silesia, GILL (FGC21360+)
kit #66138 - Wrocław, ZWIEFKA (L283+)

Haplo E1b - 4 / 100:

kit #E18170 - Sternalice, STEINERT (PF1975+)
kit #83418 - Racibórz, FIEGLER (V13+)
kit #233387 - Krasne Pole (Ostrava), HONHEISER (V13+)
kit #155147 - Lubin, SEIFLEIN (V13+)

Haplo G2a - 3 / 100:

kit #285720 - Gliwice, BEIDEL (Y8903+)
kit #231079 - Uszyce, KOWALSKI (P15+)
kit #265686 - Lutomia Górna, POHL (L13/L78+)

Haplo N1c - 3 / 100:

kit #N49541 - Rydułtowy, MEISEL (L1025+)
kit #N107445 - Złotoryja, NOWAK (Y4706+)
kit #E11197 - Górki, BLACH (L1025+)

Haplo G2b - 2 / 100:

kit #123331 - Bolesławiec, BRODA, (M377+)
kit #72341 - Podkamień, ADER (M377+)

Haplo J1 - 2 / 100:

kit #77418 - Praszka, GUTFRAJND (Z18271+)
kit #N13360 - Pszczyna, WARZECHA (P58+)

Haplo I2a - 1 / 100:

kit #300972 - Laskówka, SCHINDLER (CTS5966+)

Haplo T - 1 / 100:

kit #161332 - Zielona Góra, SCHÜTZ (P322+)

Haplo Q - 1 / 100:

kit #89372 - Mikołów, DE KRUPPA (L275+)

===========================
===========================

Haplo R1a - 54 / 100:

Clade R1a-M417+:

kit #40132 - Zielona Góra, WEDERICH (M417+)

Clade R1a-L664:

kit #277963 - Siemianowice Śląskie, KORFANTY (L644+)

Clade R1a-Z280:

kit #156577 - Stronie Śląskie, SZCZEPANEK (M417+, Z280?)

Subclade Z92:

kit #192545 - Głubczyce, SALZMANN (Z280>Z92+)

Subclade CTS1211 (M558):

kit #164946 - Lubliniec, SCHEMBOR (Z280>CTS1211?)
kit #249444 - Błotnica Strzelecka, MAXELON (Z280>CTS1211?)

YP343:

kit #N38418 - Krzyżowa, BULAWA (Z280>CTS1211>YP343*)

YP380:

kit #N116699 - Ochaby, STANIEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*)
kit #295227 - Warszowice, LASSEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380?)

P278.2:

kit #E5412 - Opole, KLEEMANN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #N35951 - Ostrawa, NN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #163780 - Niewiesze, KOCUR (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)

CTS3402>YP237:

kit #465642 - Bładnice Górne, GAZDA (Z280, CTS3402>YP237+)
kit #161130 - Wrocław, PFEILER (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP235?)
kit #302244 - Frydek-Mistek, NOWAK (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP951, YP1018+)

CTS3402>Y33:

kit #210950 - Legnica, HAMANN (Z280, CTS3402>Y33, YP4335*)
kit #N17626 - Katowice, SOBALLA (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902+)
kit #464408 - Osina Mała, KUBE (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902+)

S18681:

kit #E8695 - Wrocław, MASUR (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681)
kit #N156262 - Wrocław, WIANCKO (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314+)
kit #329518 - Brody (Pförten), KAKOSCHKE (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314>YP1409+)

Clade R1a-M458:

Subclade L260:

kit #188725 - Mysłowice, PATALONG (M458, L260?)
kit #349840 - Katowice, ROSTEK (M458, L260?)
kit #172283 - Wałbrzych, DINTER (M458, L260?)
kit #124617 - Oleśnica, LASSOTA (M458, L260?)
kit #N33335 - Budziska, GRZESIK (M458, L260?)
kit #N18946 - Żywiec, TOMASZEK (M458, L260?)
kit #N13715 - Komprachcice, SAKRY (M458, L260+)
kit #363910 - Międzyrzecze, ROLKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E1842 - Stare Karmonki, FREYER (M458, L260+)
kit #N3865 - Laskowice, PACH (M458, L260+)
kit #114248 - Srebrna Góra, KRUSZKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E4579 - Czerwona Woda, NN (M458, L260+)
kit #173783 - Zielona Góra, VOGT (M458, L260+)

YP1337:

kit #288504 - Rostkowice, STRZODA (M458, L260>YP1337+)

YP254:

kit #N111740 - Kałki, SCHULZE (M458, L260, YP256>YP254?)
kit #53667 - Wilamowice, SCHNEIDER (M458, L260, YP254+)
kit #376660 - Brzęczkowice, CHECHELSKI (M458, L260, YP254>YP414+)
kit #154913 - Niemodlin, HANNAK (M458, L260, YP254>YP414>YP610+)

Y2905:

kit #439329 - Mikołów, SZKOWRON (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #338484 - Świniary, MIRKE (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #260299 - Głubczyce, BERNATEK (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #329542 - Wrocław, WARKUS (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #N77026 - Panki, KONARSKI (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364>YP3927+)

Subclade L1029:

kit #178329 - Chorzów, BENTKOWSKI (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #102574 - Wałbrzych, SCHOBER (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #373829 - Głubczyce, LEX (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #E11879 - Raszowa, GONDRO (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #271280 - Milicz, SCHWABE (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #199575 - Wrocław, Piotr WŁOSTOWIC (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP593+)
kit #97621 - Wrocław, JUNG (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921+)

Clade R1a-Z93(xCTS6):

kit #E7096 - Rościsławice, BAUM (Z93, Z94-)
kit #232033 - Krapkowice, SCHARON (Z93, Z2124>Z2123, Y934*)

Subclade R1a-CTS6: (= Ashkenazi Jewish subclade)

kit #N103033 - Silesia, CHRISTMANN (Z93, Z2124>Z2122, CTS6+)

===============================
===============================

Map (98 samples with exact places known):

https://s32.postimg.org/6op30x89h/Lower_and_Upper.png

Lower_and_Upper.png


=====================

Structure of R1a haplogroup in Silesia:

M417 - 54/54
---L664 - 1/54
---Z645 - 52/54
------Z93 - 3/52
------Z283 - 49/52
---------Z280 - 19/49
------------Z92 - 1/19
------------M558 - 17/19
---------------CTS3402 - 9/17
---------M458 - 30/48
------------L260 - 23/30
------------CTS11962 - 7/30
 
Tomenable said:
When you say Russians do you mean ethnic Russians or any citizens of Russia?

Because as you know there are hundreds of ethnic minority groups in Russia.
Click to expand...

Ethnic Russians from Donbass. Contrary to stereotypes about Russians, they didn't look Fino-Ugric, or Tatar, but particulary Slavic, yet they are visibly shorter than Poles.
 
As you can see above:

Silesia was predominantly R1a before WW2, and this applies also to German-speaking Lower Silesia.

This also applies to East Prussia, which was mostly R1a + N1c - also in its German-speaking parts:

East Prussia (sample size = 80):

Haplo R1a --- 44% (35 men)
Haplo N1c --- 24% (19 men)
Haplo R1b --- 15% (12 men)
Haplo I1 ----- 8% (6 men)
Haplo I2 ----- 5% (4 men)
Haplo E1b ---- 1% (1 man)
Haplo J2 ----- 1% (1 man)
Haplo G ------ 1% (1 man)
Haplo T ------ 1% (1 man)

Map showing places of birth of all 80 paternal ancestors from East Prussia:

Map_East_Prussia.png


Combined samples (excluding 4 Silesians with no exact birth place given):

Silesia_East_Prussia.png
 
Details concerning that East Prussian sample of 80:

Haplogroup R1a - 35 men:

kit 145992 - Martin Kiehl, born in year 1760 in Stobiec (Stobbendorf), hg. R1a-M458
kit 165792 - Johann M. Sommerfeld, born in 1750 in Tiegenort (Tujsk), hg. R1a-L365
kit N2864 - Michael Flatau, born in 1800 in Alt Christburg (Stary Dzierzgoń), hg. R1a-M417
kit 275076 - Georg Gottlieb Gutt, born in 1729 in Brodnica, hg. R1a-CTS3402
kit 137403, Felyx Pruhs, born in year 1826 in Bratjan, hg. R1a-M417
kit 329192 Friedrich Mattern, born in Liebstadt (Milakowo), died in 1717, hg. R1a-CTS456
kit 161829 Johann Pieczkowski, born in 1824 in Rosenau (Różnowo), hg. R1a-M512
kit N1840 Mikel Bujnicki, born in 1844 in Rogonnen (Rogajny), hg. R1a-L260
kit E9666 Jakob Pawellek born in 1853 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno), hg. R1a-L365
kit 175710 Georg Glass born in 1810 in Babanten (Babięty), hg. R1a-Z280
kit 221446 Ludwig Ermis, born in 1822 in Gruenwalde (near Ortelsburg), hg. R1a-CTS456
kit 31553 Samuel Liedtke, born in 1853 in Kaltwangen (Kalwagi), hg. R1a-L260
kit 71994 Franz Pallaschke, born in 1883 in Buddern (Budry), hg. R1a-CTS1211
kit 162556 Otto Ernst Kloth, born in 1702 in Deutsch Wilten (Ermakovo), hg. R1a-Z92
kit 153224 Leopold Lau, born in 1867 in Kompehnen (Niwy), hg. R1a-Z283
kit 200664 Simon Netke, born in 1686 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1a-Z280
kit 85285 Friedrich Lichtenstein born in 1870 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1a-L366
kit E4464 Karl Labinsky born in 1840 in Trempen (Novostreyovo), hg. R1a-Z280
kit 275090 Martin Kurschus, born b4 WW2 in Memel (Klaipeda), hg. R1a-M512
kit E10941 Jablonski, born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1a-M198
kit N46232 Christian Nikel, born in 1780 in Sommerau (Zabrowo), hg. R1a-CTS10893
kit B14462 Karl A. Rosenbaum born in 1830 in Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo), hg. R1a-L1029
kit 316853 August Czeranna, born in 1864 in Gross Schöndamerau (Trelkovo), hg. R1a-Z283
kit 2546 Johann Piasetzki, born in 1860 in Sensburg (Mrągowo), hg. R1a-CTS3402
kit E6115 Klaus born in 1935 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1a-M512
kit E2656 Michael Gruenhagen, born in 1750 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce), hg. R1a-M198
kit 330940 Friedrich Malesha, born in 1800 in Soldahnen (Soldany), hg. R1a-L1280
kit N2278 Krystyan Lamka, born in 1769 in Lapienus (Łapinóż), hg. R1a-CTS456
kit N5198 Peter Wróblewski, born in 1830 in Marienwerder (Kwidzyń), hg. R1a-L1029
kit N18451 Frank J. Zalewski, born in 1858 in Gotschalki (Goczałki), hg. R1a-Z283
kit 131361 Jan Jablonowski, born b4 WW2 in Prioma (near Soldau/Działdowo), hg. R1a-Z283
kit N43077, NN born b4 WW2 in Panemune (Sovetsk), hg. R1a-Z92
kit 157553 Tomasz Szypulski, born in 1738 in Szypułki-Zaskórki (near Neidenburg), hg. R1a-Z283
kit E4688 Stanislaw Holynski born in 1780 in Kutten (Kuty), hg. R1a-Z92
kit 145455 Scheffrahn, born in Rastenburg (Kętrzyn), hg. R1a-M417

Haplogroup N1c - 19 men:

kit 142919 Wilhelm E. Spangehl born in 1819 in Ragnit (Neman), hg. N1c-L1025
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slavyanskoye), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny), hg. N1c-L731
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek), hg. N1c-L1025
kit E9638 August Darge born in 1870 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski born in 1850 in Lötzen (Giżycko), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher born in 1729 in Schoenfeld (near Braunsberg), hg. N1c-L550
kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry), hg. N1c-L550
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch born in 1874 in Campinschken (near Tilsit), hg. N1c-L550
kit 284236 Wannagat born in 1880 in Göritten (Pushkino)/Stallupönen (Nesterov), hg. N1c-M178
kit 147092 Johann Bever born in 1800 in Ryabinovoye (in Kaliningrad Oblast), hg. N1c-M178
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis), hg. N1c-M232
kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit born in 1800 in Eszerischken, hg. N1c-L1025
kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels (Dargiele) near Migehnen (Mingajny), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, born in 1815 in Bełcząc (near Bialla/Gehlenburg), hg. N1c-L1025
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, born in 1758 in Łapka (near Olsztyn/Allenstein), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 173926 Baltazar Hilinski, born in 1866 in Rakowo (near Tiegenhof), hg. N1c-L1025
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork), hg. N1c-L1025
kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, born in Kolonie Bismarck near Heydekrug (Šilutė), hg. N1c-L1025

Haplogroup R1b U106 - 4 men:

kit E10648 Jakob Preuschoff, born in 1575 in Klenau (Klejnówko), hg. R1b-L48
kit 17375 Bäsner, born in 1840 in Heilsberg (Lidzbark Warmiński), hg. R1b-S5970
kit 253571 Heinrich Bartel, born in 1766 in Graudenz (Grudziądz), hg. R1b-U106
kit 266572 Karol Zalewski, born in 1812 in Rozogi (near Ortelsburg), hg. R1b-U106

Haplogroup R1b P312 - 2 men:

kit N69965 Otto Emil Kraft, born in 1893 in Tilsit (Sovetsk), hg. R1b-P312
kit 81967 Johann M. Wentzel, born in 1845 in Marienburg (Malbork), hg. R1b-DF13

Haplogroup R1b undefined subclade - 4 men:

kit E15373 Johann Voelkner, born in 1748 in Reddenau (Rodnowo), hg. R1b-M269
kit 59511 Johann Schwarm, born in 1814 in Marienwerder (Kwidzyń), hg. R1b-M269
kit N112758 Ignatius Reis, born in 1858 in Wabcz, hg. R1b-M269
kit E4574 NN born in 1844 in Kallinowen, Kreis Lyck (Ełk), hg. R1b-M269

Haplo R1b Eastern branch ("haplotype 35") - 2 men:

kit N14933 Walenty Straszewski, born in 1731 in Waldowo Szlacheckie, hg. R1b-Z2103
kit N43078 NN born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1b-L23

Haplogroup I1 - 6 men:

kit 125721 Gustav Schedlinski born b4 WW2 in Seedorf (Jeziorowskie), hg. I1-M253
kit 181479 Ludwig Muller born in 1858 in Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo), hg. I1-Z60
kit 164185 August Napierski born in 1879 in Sensburg (Mrągowo), hg. I1-P109
kit 169101 Otto Bewer born in year 1899 in Groß Skaisgirren, hg. I1-M253
kit 330214 Heinrich Kardell, born in 1841 in Graudenz (Grudziądz), hg. I1-M253
kit 64526 Jurgis Serapins, born in 1857 in Picktupöhnen (Piktupenai), hg. I1-M253

Haplogroup I2a - 4 men:

kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty), hg. I2a-P37
kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda), hg. I2a-M423
kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno), hg. I2a-M423
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta), hg. I2a-M423

Haplogroup J2-PF5456 (typically Jewish subclade) - 1 man:

kit 173911 Wolf Zimak alias Simon Freybuschewitz born in Gilgenburg (Dąbrówno), died in 1884, hg. J-PF5456

Haplogroup E1b-V13 - 1 man:

kit E4759 Johan Krüger born in 1680 in Wehlau (Znamensk), hg. E-V13

Haplogroup G-M201 - 1 man:

kit 260477 Walkau, born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. G-M201

Haplogroup T - 1 man:

kit 96408 Michael Hohenfeld, born in Tolkemit (Tolkmicko), hg. T-M70
 
Thanks man ! That is a quality data.

Yes, I can see Silesia was overwhelmingly Polish before the WW2.

Regarding East Prussians, should have not they been of Baltic origin ? I tought Teutonic order exterminated them, but this data shows they were predominately native northeastern Europeans rather than ''Germans''.


Could I ask a off-topic question ? I see your Y-DNA is R1b. Do you have any known German ancestry ? Also, what kind of R1b subclades are common among ethnic Poles ?

Thanks in advance.
 
Yes, I can see Silesia was overwhelmingly Polish before the WW2.
Click to expand...

No. It was mostly German, but those Germans were largely descended from Poles.

Check "Germanization" (= the process of adoption of German language and culture).

Regarding East Prussians, should have not theiy been of Baltic origin ?
Click to expand...

Yes, N1c in East Prussia indicates Baltic origin, and R1a either Baltic or Slavic origin.
 
I see your Y-DNA is R1b. Do you have any known German ancestry ?
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I have known German ancestry, but in my mother's line (my maternal grandfather's surname = Meller).

So this German ancestry does not affect my Y-DNA haplogroup. BTW, my R1b is probably P312->U152->L2.

Here is what Lawrence Mayka told me about my R1b, when I asked him about matches in Slavic nations:

Your Y-DNA Ancestral Origins page lists the ancestry of your exact 12-marker matches. The list includes

Czech Republic 4 1076 0.4% Bohemia (1)
Poland 4 5898 0.1% Prussia (1)
Russian Federation 1 6647 < 0.1 %

So you do have exact matches from Poland and neighboring countries. Three of your exact 12-marker matches are in our project:

134944 Frederick Stanley Zydel R1b-P312 : U152+ L2+ (L2 SNP Pack Needed)
133147 Petr Cibulka R1b-P312 : U152+ L2+ FGC11577+
B26940 Patrick Redgate (Adopted) R1b-P312 : DF27+ Z196+ L176.2+ SRY2627+ Z207+

Your Y-DNA Haplogroup Origins page indeed lists a plethora of different clades. But if we look only at the Slavic countries (Poland, the Czech Republic, and the Russian Federation), we see only the following exact 12-marker matches:

R-L2 Czech Republic - 1
R-L2 Poland - 1
R-U106 Russian Federation - 1

Just from this, I would say it is more likely that you belong to R-L2, less likely R-U106, and even less likely anything else.

Nevertheless, your initial intuition is correct: The best choice for you is the R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack, for $99.
Click to expand...

So my R1b might be of Bohemian / Czech origin (and ultimately it is probably Celtic or Italo-Celtic).
 
Also, what kind of R1b subclades are common among ethnic Poles ?
Click to expand...

U106, U152, Z2103, DF27 and L21 are most common among Poles.

My (probable) L2 is the most common subclade of U152 in Poland.

Z2103 (there is also some L23* and M269*) = "Eastern" branch.

Some very basal subclades of L51* can also be found in Poland.

===========================

Polish U106 = mostly (slightly over half) Z9 and L47 subclades.

And the most common sub-branch of Polish DF27 is R1b-Z196.

===========================

I have upgraded Y12 to Y37, so soon I will learn what subclade it is.
 
MaxCRO said:
Ethnic Russians from Donbass.
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Russians from Donbass probably aren't "ethnically pure" Russians.

That region was a melting pot historically (and prehistorically too).
 
Lastly, oldest found of R1 Mal'ta boy, ancestral to all R1-men
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Mal'ta boy died as a boy - so he wasn't ancestral to anyone (he did not have children). :)

And he was actually R*, so a basal subclade of R, which is ancestral to both R1 and to R2.

R2 is common in India and the Middle East, and was in ancient DNA from Neolithic Iran.
 
Tomenable said:
Mal'ta boy died as a boy - so he wasn't ancestral to anyone (he did not have children). :)

And he was actually R*, so a basal subclade of R, which is ancestral to both R1 and to R2.

R2 is common in India and the Middle East, and was in ancient DNA from Neolithic Iran.
Click to expand...

Yes, correct.

Tomenable said:
Russians from Donbass probably aren't "ethnically pure" Russians.

That region was a melting pot historically (and prehistorically too).
Click to expand...

Can you be more specific ?
 
MaxCRO said:
I have worked among Poles, Russians and Ukrainians for shorter period of time, and Poles appear tallest of the group.

Poles looked taller and more robust than either Russians or Ukrainians, according to my experience Russians were shortest and more gracile. I'm not sure if regional origin has something to do with it, as Poles I ackquainted with were mostly Silesians, where German settlers lived for centuries. None of them had German sounding surnames or names, and I am familar with the fact that lot of Eastern Poles moved westwards after World War II, but I'm curious is there height and Y-cromosome distribution variety among Polish regions ?
Click to expand...

I've nether thought of Russians as "gracile". They seem short and stocky to me. Ukrainians from my experience can be tall and slender. Poles are more built than either I think.
 
MaxCRO said:
Can you be more specific ?
Click to expand...

There is a mix of both ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians in that region.

It was also on the border of the Steppe, so admixtures from various Nomadic Steppe peoples were possible.

And also it is an industrial region, so workers of various ethnicities immigrate.
 
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