Immigration Ban the burka?

[Melancon]

I have never found that calling someone else's opinion "dumb" is conducive to reasoned discussion.

I also find your comment that I am "ducking" out of the discussion patronizing and offensive. I "duck" nothing and no one. Anyone who spends any decent amount of time reading posts on this forum should know that.

I do not, however, have the inclination or the time to debate with people who have no background or practice in dealing with constitutional law issues, to my knowledge, but presume to be experts on the subject, and most importantly, who feel free to accuse those who disagree with them with wanting to trash the lst Amendment.

Nor do I have time to educate people in America who have absolutely no background or knowledge or experience with modern Islamism in Europe. If you want to educate yourself about it, just google the issue. Many of the articles are in French or Italian, but google translate should serve.

Apparently sparkey is often blunt and easy at offending people, but he doesn't mean to. I often do this too; without realizing it. Many people on this board are touchy and I am guilty of offending people accidentally too.

 

[Besa]

One needs to be able to identify people, the one they dress with the face all covered up and only seeing the eyes is out of line,,, or else I could dress up like a muslim women and rob a bank.

 

[sparkey]

I also find your comment that I am "ducking" out of the discussion patronizing and offensive. I "duck" nothing and no one. Anyone who spends any decent amount of time reading posts on this forum should know that.

I was indeed surprised that you indicated that you were leaving this discussion, based on how inclined you normally are to tackle all sorts of issues. Welcome back. Would you please address my points now?

I do not, however, have the inclination or the time to debate with people who have no background or practice in dealing with constitutional law issues, to my knowledge, but presume to be experts on the subject, and most importantly, who feel free to accuse those who disagree with them with wanting to trash the lst Amendment.

Who are you talking about? Is this some bizarre caricature of me?

Nor do I have time to educate people in America who have absolutely no background or knowledge or experience with modern Islamism in Europe. If you want to educate yourself about it, just google the issue. Many of the articles are in French or Italian, but google translate should serve.

I wasn't asking you to, I was asking you to provide some data or examples regarding people who wear burkas in the West. I provided some that supported my view, but you haven't done the same.

 

[sparkey]

One needs to be able to identify people, the one they dress with the face all covered up and only seeing the eyes is out of line,,, or else I could dress up like a muslim women and rob a bank.

If you're going to rob a bank, will the fact that burkas are illegal stop you?

 

[Melancon]

If you're going to rob a bank, will the fact that burkas are illegal stop you?

That's not what Besa was insinuating. If you read closely s/he is actually talking about NOT stealing. No one can steal with a burka and get away with it; even if it is illegal, as you stated. They would easily be caught for even wearing burka, of course.

Besa meant that it's better to have it banned; as the incident of getting away with crime would be larger if it were legal. You missed the point.

 

[sparkey]

That's not what Besa was insinuating. If you read closely s/he is actually talking about NOT stealing. No one can steal with a burka and get away with it; even if it is illegal, as you stated. They would easily be caught for even wearing burka, of course.

Besa meant that it's better to have it banned; as the incident of getting away with crime would be larger if it were legal. You missed the point.

I proposed my question because I doubt that banning burkas would lower such crime. Bank robbers would simply wear something similar, like a ski mask, or ignore the ban because they're committing a more serious crime anyway.

The fact that disguises can be used for crimes does not mean that disguises should be illegal, don't you agree?

 

[Melancon]

I doubt that banning burkas would lower such crime.

The fact that disguises can be used for crimes does not mean that disguises should be illegal, don't you agree?

The first sentence says it all; you're clearly naive regarding human nature.

A burka is not a costume. If it wasn't banned; one could think it would be seen as discriminatory against Islam to accuse women of wearing it; for the purpose of using it to steal.


Wearing a halloween costume to go and rob a bank should give people suspicions; before that event were to actually occur. Who dresses up in a Halloween costume in broad daylight? If Burka's were legal, the crime rate would actually be higher for criminals using it to steal and conceal their identity.

 

[Aberdeen]

.................
I wasn't asking you to, I was asking you to provide some data or examples regarding people who wear burkas in the West. I provided some that supported my view, but you haven't done the same.

If you want to see places in the western world where there are a lot of women wearing burkas (because they would be in danger if they didn't), visit some of the Muslim suburbs of Paris, such as Seine-Saint-Denis. If you made it back alive, I suspect you'd have a whole new perspective on this subject and a better understanding of why governments in democratic nations sometimes need to be involved in setting social norms.

 

[Melancon]

If you want to see places in the western world where there are a lot of women wearing burkas (because they would be in danger if they didn't), visit some of the Muslim suburbs of Paris, such as Seine-Saint-Denis. If you made it back alive, I suspect you'd have a whole new perspective on this subject and a better understanding of why governments in democratic nations sometimes need to be involved in setting social norms.

Sparkey is just from California. I'm an American and people who live in California often live on a different planet. It was the center of the Hippie revolution of the 60s. LOL ^^

 

[Melancon]

Traumatizing young children is clearly not a reasonable expectation for almost any form of dress, burka included. Ban clown noses too because some children are scared of them? Burka opponents are really reaching now.

Isn't it time to probably lock this thread? Everyone has their opinions. Let the polling speak for itself.

I feel about almost everything has been said. And people clashing over their viewpoints will not sway each other. It is only going to start conflict.

 

[Besa]

If you want to see places in the western world where there are a lot of women wearing burkas (because they would be in danger if they didn't), visit some of the Muslim suburbs of Paris, such as Seine-Saint-Denis. If you made it back alive, I suspect you'd have a whole new perspective on this subject and a better understanding of why governments in democratic nations sometimes need to be involved in setting social norms.

I don't understand why a woman should wear burka it's just as radical as women dressing like hookers. Something in the middle is the best.. I feel sorry for them because I know allot of it is from social stigma, people, not just family, expect them to wear it or else they are looked down on. for example some women who work out at a local gym where I used to work out, they worked out wearing burkas, they were running on the treadmill with burkas on while it was 20+ outside. Also when I was at the beach in south europe I saw muslim women wearing burkas in 40+ sunny weather while their men were walking around in shorts no shirt and having fun.

It's just as bad as many women and men getting circumcised because of social stigma, when they don't want to, but people laugh if they ain't and they are pressed to do it. I remember someone telling me bck in the old days they were circumcised without any anaesthetic, and one of them ran away lol..... people are nuts. I would probably punch someone in the face if they forced me to do something like that

 

[Besa]

That's not what Besa was insinuating. If you read closely s/he is actually talking about NOT stealing. No one can steal with a burka and get away with it; even if it is illegal, as you stated. They would easily be caught for even wearing burka, of course.

Besa meant that it's better to have it banned; as the incident of getting away with crime would be larger if it were legal. You missed the point.

Yes. I remember some story of a guy going the backdoor of a crime scene and pass security guards, dressed up as a woman in burka and he got away. It was something like that

and in a place where there are allot of women wearing burkas, one could easily disappear into the crowd after a crime scene

 

[LeBrok]

Also when I was at the beach in south europe I saw muslim women wearing burkas in 40+ sunny weather while their men were walking around in shorts no shirt and having fun.

Great example of "free will decision" on wearing burka. These poor women have as much free will to make the decision, as slaves refusing to work for the master. Oh, the consequences...

 

[Expredel]

No, it is they who only see women as sexual objects, and they project this world view onto every one else.

If this is a true representation of their mindset, then they are suffering from a psycho sexual disorder for which they need psychological or perhaps psychiatric intervention. Perhaps there is something in the culture which has arrested the sexual development of these men. They should be concentrating on their studies, their work, the care and protection of their families, and the well-being and future of their country, not lost in a perpetual adolescent sexual reverie.

It could be genetic and be an evolutionary strategy. They're concentrating on not raising another man's offspring.

 

[LeBrok]

Yes. I remember some story of a guy going the backdoor of a crime scene and pass security guards, dressed up as a woman in burka and he got away. It was something like that

and in a place where there are allot of women wearing burkas, one could easily disappear into the crowd after a crime scene

I wonder what will happen if I go to the bank, to do my usual banking, wearing full face ski mask?

 

[Melancon]

Is there something wrong with expanding the discussion to nail down exactly what it is that you're proposing?

And don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that the Supreme Court could be perfectly willing to push aside the 1st Amendment based on some contemporary concern.



It's not clear how you think I'm "changing the parameters of the discussion" here. I didn't mention banning hijabs. Is it an objection to considering both burkas and niqabs together? I didn't include niqabs because including them would somehow help my argument, I did so because we can't really have a discussion at all if we're limiting ourselves to people who wear true burkas in the West. Besides, when most Westerners think of the burka, they think of a full veil, or niqab, not the unusual netting-over-eye garment that is the burka. Most existing and proposed "burka bans" ban both niqabs and burkas. Studies on the subject often lump them together.

But, sure, if you want, let's talk about nothing but the burka. Let's start by finding some actual statistics that support your arguments. Unfortunately for you, it's genuinely difficult to find any examples at all of women wearing true burkas in the West, so statistics are in short supply. To give you an idea: A 2009 study found that 0.04% of French Muslim women wear niqab or burka (they were grouped together, as usual). That's not a typo, I really mean four hundredths of one percent, about 367 people total per the report. And burkas are the significantly less common of the two garments.

I mean, seriously, not even ISIS is requiring women to wear the burka, they're enforcing niqab wearing.



What would make you think that Muslim women who wear burkas would be unwilling to adhere to security measures at airports? I've read multiple places that they're perfectly willing to remove their veils at security checkpoints, although oftentimes they prefer to do so in private and with only women around, if possible. Having both men and women working security checkpoints at airports is already part of standard procedure. And health reasons? It seems that you're just reaching for justification now. (And lawyers are indeed trained to throw whatever they can find against the wall to see what sticks, but I fail to see the significance of that.)



I'm not sure what makes you think that I just want to talk them out of it, I said that we should "give some teeth to domestic violence investigations." That is precisely "strict laws and strict enforcement of those laws." It's not a dumb, useless, and quite possibly counter-productive burka ban. It's an actual way to address the real problem.



You've seen "roaming bands of young Muslims" enforcing burka wearing? I'm interested in hearing about it. That said, to support your argument, you'll still need to provide studies, statistics, or at least examples, although anecdotal evidence is always weak.

You're for the burka, we get it; it's your opinion. No need to continuously and obsessively try to get your point across.

 

[sparkey]

If you want to see places in the western world where there are a lot of women wearing burkas (because they would be in danger if they didn't), visit some of the Muslim suburbs of Paris, such as Seine-Saint-Denis. If you made it back alive, I suspect you'd have a whole new perspective on this subject and a better understanding of why governments in democratic nations sometimes need to be involved in setting social norms.

OK, this is almost something concrete that we can talk about. Do you have any figures for rates of burka (and/or niqab) wearing in Seine-Saint-Denis? I'm certainly aware that there are places in Paris with high Muslim immigrant populations, but rates of burka wearing are very low throughout France, so I don't suspect any particular location to be an exception to that. In Seine-Saint-Denis, most of the Muslim immigrants are from North Africa, correct? There, the niqab and the burka are much less common than the hijab and al-amira, or even wearing no head covering at all.

By the way, you may want to be careful with nonsense like "If you made it back alive"; it was just recently that a commenter on Fox News was widely ridiculed by actual Parisians for suggesting that some places in Paris are "no-go zones."

 

[sparkey]

Sparkey is just from California. I'm an American and people who live in California often live on a different planet. It was the center of the Hippie revolution of the 60s. LOL ^^

Don't presume too much. I'm from inland California originally, which is more Okie town USA than it is psychedelic hippieland. I'm not all that liberal in the American sense of the word, I vote Republican more than I do Democrat. Anyway, this thread isn't about me, and who I am shouldn't affect how you address my arguments.

You're for the burka, we get it; it's your opinion. No need to continuously and obsessively try to get your point across.

Being against a ban is not the same as being for something. Do you get that?

 

[Maleth]

The Burka is cultural and not religious . Its nowhere stated in the Quran that it should be worn. The Burka is the mere invention of Chauvinist males in ultra patriarchal societies who have woven themselves to be control freaks and want the women for themselves and while its fine for them to fool around with others the women should be submissive to their desires. They have to understand that in many other societies around the world this is totally unacceptable and stop playing victims to pursue with irrational behavior.

 

[Aberdeen]

The Burka is cultural and not religious . Its nowhere stated in the Quran that it should be worn. The Burka is the mere invention of Chauvinist males in ultra patriarchal societies who have woven themselves to be control freaks and want the women for themselves and while its fine for them to fool around with others the women should be submissive to their desires. They have to understand that in many other societies around the world this is totally unacceptable and stop playing victims to pursue with irrational behavior.

I agree. But what a lot of people don't understand is that the burka is a fairly modern invention, created as a result of the rise of the extremist Wahabi version of islam.