Bashkirs: What Subclades of R1b Were They?

There shouldn't be any serious argument here. R1b is originally independent of either Altaic or IE language groups which evolved considerably later. What Taranis is saying is that subsequent clade mutations of R1b are demonstrably linkable to either Turkic or IE speakers (indeed others as well), and when IE R1b (remember-- precisely dated) appears in an unlikely area (like spots of Bashkiria-- not all but some) the obvious explanation is that it came here from the west, NOT that it somehow mutated independently in two considerably distinct areas. "Light" appearance BTW has nothing whatsoever to do with Y-DNA. It is controlled in different chromosomal locations. And language switch is also a process totally distinct from genetics. The Crimean Tatars, for example, are a very mixed lot Y-DNA wise even though they speak the same Turkic language. All this is elementary. Once you get into autosomals (which constitute 96% of our genetic identity) you will lose some of your enthusiasm for Y-DNA markers. They are interesting, frequently informative, but hardly decisive as to identity per se.
 
True, but some folks here link R1b to IE Centum languages while according to them R1a belongs to IE Satem languages. This would make R1* a proto IE marker, and that is totally ridiculous. Why? Because we all know that R1b can also be linked to other groups.

Autosomal DNA link you only to a specific location. And it's only comparing / matching groups with other groups. Nothing else.

Y-DNA says something about your paternal line, origin and roots!

But back on-topic, is it possible that the so called western subclade of R1b appeared in Central Asia after some back migrating Huns from Central Europe?
 
True, but some folks here link R1b to IE Centum languages while according to them R1a belongs to IE Satem languages. This would make R1* a proto IE marker, and that is totally ridiculous. Why? Because we all know that R1b can also be linked to other groups.

Correct.

Autosomal DNA link you only to a specific location. And it's only comparing / matching groups with other groups. Nothing else.

It does much more than that. It tells you what you are, genetically, at this specific point in time, and which genetic families contributed to making you what you are (incl. what you look like, since that seems of interest to you :)=)), and in what proportions. This is still a developing science, but I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with various projects dealing with autosomals. I believe there is also an Iranic one. You can find details if you join http://dna-forums.org

Y-DNA says something about your paternal line, origin and roots.

Yes. But not very much I'm afraid. And it can sometimes be quite misleading. Y-DNA can be transmitted in fashions which do not correlate at all with what you are at this moment. You may have had an ancestor X, and this marker persists in you even though through the ages everything associated with this ancestor has been more or less thoroughly washed out, and other criteria substituted in your makeup. Not just genetic ones, but cultural and linguistic too.

But back on-topic, is it possible that the so called western subclade of R1b appeared in Central Asia after some back migrating Huns from Central Europe?

You'd have to ask a specialist about that. All I can say is that the "Huns" of 455 CE were no longer exactly the Huns who invaded from the east in 370 (and remember that these Huns were already associated with huge numbers of Alans, and subsequently drafted all sorts of populations into their complex). So in principle, perhaps this is possible.
 
Hello! Sorry, I write through the translator.
I want to say a few words about the haplogroup R1b of the Bashkirs.


As we know, there are several dozen Bashkir tribes,and a significant percentage of haplogroup R1b,currently found in three tribes: Burzyan, Kypsak (Kipchaks) and Gaina.


In the tribe Burzyan, who lives in Burzyan,Baymak districs of Bashkortostan found haplogroup R1b-M269. Presumably, the tribe Burzyan - autochthons the Southern Urals and they come from Abashevo culture.


In the tribe Kypsak (Kipchaks) living in Abzelilovsky,Baymak districs of Bashkortostan found subclade R1b-M73. Presumably, a tribe originally from Altai.


In the tribe Gaina, who lives in the Perm region of Russia found "Western European" subclade R1b-U152. This tribe before the migration to the South Urals (8-9century) and the occurrence of the Bashkirs lived in the steppes near the Black and Azov Seas. Presumably, Gaina tribe - the descendants of the Goths.This is indicated by the name of the tribe "Gaina".This ethnonym was distributed among the Goths. So famous Gothic commander Gainas, who lived in the 5th century AD.
 
Undoubtedly, at present, all Western European R1b Celtic and Germanic speaking Indo-European languages. However, there is reason to believe that a few thousand years agothey talked about "pra-Turk" languages ​​- mother tongue for R1b, and then switched to the Indo-European languages. At this indirectly indicates the similarity of myths, runes, andsome of the ethnonym of names.

Jǫtunn (Proto-Germanic *etunaz) might have the same root as "eat" (Proto-Germanic *etan) and accordingly had the original meaning of "glutton" or "man-eater", possibly in the sense of personifying chaos, the destructive forces of nature.

In the Bashkir language, the word "yot, yotou" means "swallow."

In Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing, healing, and fertility. The cognate deity in wider Germanic mythology and paganism was known in Old English as Þunor and in Old High German as Donar (runic þonar ᚦᛟᚾᚨᚱ), stemming from a Common Germanic *Þunraz (meaning "thunder").

In the Bashkir language, the word "dyngyr" means "to ring, rattle[FONT=arial, sans-serif]."[/FONT]
 
In theBashkirlanguage, the word"yot,yotou" means "swallow."

In theBashkirlanguage, the word"dyngyr" means "to ring,rattle."

Welcome to the forum. Regarding your language comparisons, I would issue a word of caution: you are making the same mistake that AkBulat made, namely the comparison of individual words in modern languages without checking first where they came from.

For example, with Bashkir "yot" there is a cognate in the shape Turkish "yutmak". It is clear that this obviously derives from a common Turkic word.

Regarding the word for thunder, Germanic *θunraz is of Indo-European origin and has cognates in other words, for example Latin "tonare" (to thunder). The development *t > *θ is part of the first germanic sound shift, and *θ > *d is part of the second Germanic sound shift. As you can see the only the modern Germanic and Turkic words are superficially similar.

Undoubtedly,at present,all Western EuropeanR1bCelticandGermanicspeakingIndo-Europeanlanguages.However, there isreason to believe thata fewthousand yearsagotheytalked about"pra-Turk"languages ​​-mother tongue forR1b,and thenswitched tothe Indo-Europeanlanguages.Atthisindirectly indicatesthe similarityof myths,runes,andsome of theethnonymof names.

I do not understand why you insist that the R1b speakers must have originally have been Turkic? There is no evidence of this. If you look at the "tree" of R1b, you see that the first branch to diverge are those in the Middle East and Africa:

R1b-tree.gif

By your argumentation, we are to say that the original speakers of R1b must have spoken an Afroasiatic language.

The Germanic Runes have a completely different origin from the Turkic alphabet, and as mentioned before the signs even though overtly similar have different values. The Germanic runes derive from the Etruscan alphabet, specifically the varieties of the alphabet that were used by the Celtic peoples in the alps. The word "rune" itself is of Celtic origin and means originally "mystery" or "secret" (compare Old Irish "rún").

The Turkic people in Central Asia invented their "runes" independently, and they signs have completely different values.
 
There is a possible explanation of the high frequency of U152 at least among Northern Bashkirs in Perm region tested by Myres et al. (2010)

In Bulat Aznabaev’s work "Bashkir society from the XVII century to the first third of the XVIII century.", Ufa, 2016 (in Russian) there is information on incorporation of at least one West European into a Northern Bashkir clan:


“Among the representatives of various ethnic groups included in the structure of the Bashkir clans, there were also groups quite exotic for the region. In 1652, the Bashkirs of the village of Bisert of the Gaynа district named Aktugan and Ilbakhtey, sons of Alish, submitted a complaint against a Bashkir of the same district Afonka, son of Yanmurza, accusing him of invading their own patrimonial land on the Bisert river. During the trial, the defendant stated that the disputed patrimony was bought from the plaintiffs father for 10 rubles.


The plaintiff Aktugan insisted that his father could not sell the patrimony because it was not officially separated from Kushchi clan Bashkirs’ estate, since “his father was a native German (Немчин) and took the land from the Kushchi clan Bashkirs against the obligation to pay Yasak (tax), 57 years ago, and in that case his father gave a record to the Kushchi Bashkirs.”


Thus, back in the 90s of the 16th century, a certain “German" concluded an agreement on the admission to the clan’s land, and his sons in the middle of the XVII century became full-fledged holders of patrimonial estate of the Gayna district. The appearance of a European among the Bashkirs is understandable. A decree dated June 18, 1593 was in force in neighboring Kazan county, according to which the Tatar landowners lost the right to own Russian people. Instead, they were invited to accept or buy "Lithuanians, Latvians, Tatars, and Mordovians." From distant military expeditions, they brought with them captured and bought Germans, Latvians and Lithuanians, and planted them on their lands.


According to the census of the Kazan district by I. Boltin, a German named Anza Kutleyarov lived in the estate of the serving Tatar of Kalmyk origin, Bakshanda Nurushev. A German named Matish lived in the courtyard of the Prince Bagish Yaushev. These foreigners, having fallen into a different environment, subsequently converted to Islam, married Tatar women and assimilated completely with Tatars. In 1646, while describing the estate of Prince Baish Yaushev, the census takers registered a native German Mineyko Bekbulatov, peasant of the village of Minger of the Arsk Road,. It is likely that some of these enslaved Germans, having lost hope of returning to their homeland, at least sought to gain freedom. "


Personally I would like to add that the Russian word «Nemchin» translated here as «German» at the time had the meaning of a Western European in general and not exclusively German.
The full text of the Russian document about Alish’s sons was published in another work. So we know that in 1652 three sons of a native «German» were members of a Northern Bashkir clan Kushchi and had patrimonial estate at the confluence of Bisert and Ufa rivers.
 
Last edited:

This thread has been viewed 57907 times.

Back
Top