Black Irish come from R1b Iranians?

[adamo]

I never made a link between basques and Iberians Aberdeen; that's you. I already know it isn't indo-European and that it is a language isolate. So Wilhelmina you are saying the Iberians were pre-indo-Europeans with R1b, similar to basques? I never said the basque language came from Phoenician, open your eyes and read correctly, you drew those conclusions yourself Aberdeen. I am specifically referring to the Iberians situated in modern day Catalonia; a non-indo-European people that had significant contact with both Phoenician and Greek colonizers, not modern day Iberians in general. I meant small things as in where the quote came from.

 

[Wilhelm]

I never made a link between basques and Iberians Aberdeen; that's you. I already know it isn't indo-European and that it is a language isolate. So Wilhelmina you are saying the Iberians were pre-indo-Europeans with R1b, similar to basques? I never said the basque language came from Phoenician, open your eyes and read correctly, you drew those conclusions yourself Aberdeen. I am specifically referring to the Iberians situated in modern day Catalonia; a non-indo-European people that had significant contact with both Phoenician and Greek colonizers, not modern day Iberians in general. I meant small things as in where the quote came from.

Stop calling me with "wilhelmina" Im more manly than you faggot, I demand an explanation from Moderators.

 

[adamo]

Wow, dude......that was the auto-correct on my iPad bro; my bad....

 

[adamo]

Stop calling me with "wilhelmina" Im more manly than you faggot, I demand an explanation from Moderators.

Gonna make sure I keep this though so lebrok can see it, wow dude....,that's harsh....I wish I could say "my bad" but my iPad instantly corrects everything before I even press send, making modifications to my text....so it's not even my fault! : (

 

[Aberdeen]

I never made a link between basques and Iberians Aberdeen; that's you. I already know it isn't indo-European and that it is a language isolate. So Wilhelmina you are saying the Iberians were pre-indo-Europeans with R1b, similar to basques? I never said the basque language came from Phoenician, open your eyes and read correctly, you drew those conclusions yourself Aberdeen. I am specifically referring to the Iberians situated in modern day Catalonia; a non-indo-European people that had significant contact with both Phoenician and Greek colonizers, not modern day Iberians in general. I meant small things as in where the quote came from.

Yes, modern day Basques live on the Iberian Peninsula (or in France), but Spanish Basque country isn't in Catalona, it's further west. However, perhaps I'm just not understanding whatever it is that you're trying to say. I do want to know where that quote comes from, as it seems to me to be improbable that someone would actually publish such nonsense. However, rather than personalize this discussion any further, I think I'll take a break from it for a bit. I may be back when things cool down.

 

[adamo]

"But Basque Country isn't Catalonia", dude, dude, dude........I know exactly where Basque Country is but I'm not referring to the basque people, I'm referring to the ancient Iberians of the eastern coast of Spain, the ancient Iberians.

 

[Aberdeen]

"But Basque Country isn't Catalonia", dude, dude, dude........I know exactly where Basque Country is but I'm not referring to the basque people, I'm referring to the ancient Iberians of the eastern coast of Spain, the ancient Iberians.

Something tells me that I'm going to regret not staying away from this thread but okay, you're not talking about the Iberian Peninsula in general and you've moved on from the Basques, you're now talking exclusively about the people that the ancient Greeks called "Iberians", the descendants of Neolithic settlers who were living along the south and east coast of the Iberian Peninsula when they entered history and who were influenced by the Greek and Phoenician colonies along their coastline. And for some reason you're only talking about the "Iberians" of Catalona. The language they spoke is generally considered to be an isolate, despite attempts to link it to Basque or to an Indo-European language. The fact that the northeastern Iberian script may have been influenced by Phoenician or Greek doesn't mean that the Iberian language was related to Phoenician or Greek.

At one point you suggested that the "Iberians" were Indo-European and at another point you suggested that they were Phoenicians. They can't be both, and I don't think they were either. They were just people who had been living in the east and south of the Iberian Peninsula since the Neolithic. What does this have to do with the topic of the thread?

 

[adamo]

No I never "moved on" that's what I was referring to all along. I may have emitted more than one hypothesis earlier , but I never claimed they were indo-Europeans, I was asking the question because I was told earlier I was wrong about their origins; anyways

 

[Aberdeen]

In fact, the northeastern Iberians where considered levantines; and the eastern and southern coasts of Spain were heavily colonized by both Greeks and Phoenicians. The proto-basques were the same people as the aquitanians just on the other side of the Pyrenees.

The "northeastern Iberians" were and are not considered to be "levantines", although the Phoenicians did settle along the eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula. What does this have to do with the initial question of whether R1b is an Indo-European marker related to the darker population of Ireland? A lot of us agree that the western European folks with darker complexions could be descended from Neolithic types - is that your point?

 

[toyomotor]

It has been argued for some time that R1b originated in Eurasia, in particular, north eastern Europe bordering on modern China etc. It has been further claimed that R1b moved west until it had reached the farther most parts of western Europe, which includes the Iberian Peninsula. But some historian posit that so called "Black Irish" could be descendants of Spanish washed ashore in southern Ireland as a result of the English defeat of The Great Armada. Irish Central ( http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/Who-were-the-Black-Irish-92376439.html) quite properly says that for the many explanations of the origins of the Black Irish, none can be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Drac II]

You failed the moment you classed the basque with the Etruscans. YOU are misinformed; I never said Catalans where Levantine, everyone here knows I wouldn't make such a claim; I am the one that has constantly postulated the massive presence of R1b all across Iberia; stop trying to twist my words. The Catalonian and southern Iberian coast though saw both Phoenician and Greek colonizing outposts along its coasts, and the Iberians proper where said to have been of non-indo-European origin. Linguistic affiliation proves absolutely nothing as the basque are 90% R1b and have NOTHING to do with the Pelasgian Etruscans. Quote on basque genetics: "Autosomal genetic studies, on the one hand, confirm that Basques have a very close relationship with other Europeans, especially with the rest of Spaniards, who have a common genetic identity of over 70% with Basques." I hope this puts some of your garbage theories to rest.

No one said the Basques and Etruscans were "the same", but both of them were Pre-Indo-Europeans, their languages, again, confirm this. You are the one trying to go against the grain here. I have never seen any historian, ethnologist or linguist classifying Basques as Indo-Europeans.

Again, there was no heavy colonization of Phoenicians or any Semitic peoples anywhere in Iberia. There were some coastal trading towns, this does not equal "heavy colonization".

The Iberians being Non-Indo-European does not mean they were Semitic. If they had been so, their language would be related to Semitic languages. But it isn't.

Affiliation of a people's native language is very important, it's in fact one of the chief criteria used by historians and ethnologists to determine which peoples were Pre-Indo-European, Indo-European or Semitic. Unlike religious beliefs, which can be easily borrowed by contact with other cultures (just look at the Romans and their heavily Greek-influenced deities, one would have to erroneously conclude that Greeks and Romans were the same people), an ancient people's native language is something truly developed by the people in question.

Basques being genetically associated with other Western Europeans is hardly surprising. I already told you that Westernmost Europe (Iberia, France, British Isles) was populated by these prehistoric Pre-Indo-European peoples long before any Indo-Europeans arrived. In fact, the surprising thing would be if Basques would have had no relationship whatsoever with Spaniards, French, Britons and Irish. That they do is not surprising to any ethnologist. If you had a time machine and went back to the 19th century and you showed the results of those modern genetic studies to British writers on the subject of British & Irish ethnic origins, like John Beddoe, far from being surprised or disappointed they would say "We told you so!" They did not need the benefit of any genetic studies to come to similar conclusions of strong Pre-Indo-European influence in all these populations. They did so just by looking at linguistic, historical, ethnological and anthropological evidence.

 

[Drac II]

Comments on the language of the Iberians spoken in northeastern Spain: "There is no agreement on this, but some researchers conclude that it is linked to the Phoenician alphabet alone, whilst others believe the Greek alphabet also had a role." I honestly believe the Iberians where either Phoenicians or came from the Caucasus region with some J-M67 and were predominantly Neolithic lineages.

If we had to believe that a link to the Phoenician alphabet makes a language "Semitic", then Greek and Latin too would be "Semitic" languages, as they too have links to that alphabet. From your same source:

"The Greek alphabet (and by extension its descendants such as the Latin, the Cyrillic and the Coptic), was a direct successor of Phoenician, though certain letter values were changed to represent vowels."

However, all these languages are distinguished from Semitic languages.

 

[Drac II]

It has been argued for some time that R1b originated in Eurasia, in particular, north eastern Europe bordering on modern China etc. It has been further claimed that R1b moved west until it had reached the farther most parts of western Europe, which includes the Iberian Peninsula. But some historian posit that so called "Black Irish" could be descendants of Spanish washed ashore in southern Ireland as a result of the English defeat of The Great Armada. Irish Central ( http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/Who-were-the-Black-Irish-92376439.html) quite properly says that for the many explanations of the origins of the Black Irish, none can be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

The people who believe that whole "Black Irish descend from Armada soldiers" crock are not really "historians". Even your referred to article dismisses the whole thing as practically baseless.

 

[adamo]

I agree with much of what you said, but come on, the basque are like 85% genetically similar to modern spaniards and very similar to west Europeans as well! nothing other than their language necessarily indicates they were pre indo European, certainly their genetics don't.

 

[mihaitzateo]

actually Welsh, Cornish, Cumbric, and Old British as well as Pictish were all P-Celtic languages and were related to Old Gaullish, also a P-Celtic language.

The Brythonic dialects if the Isles were related to Gaulish.

That is the P-Q hypothesis of the Celtic languages.
The other theory is that of Insular and Continental Gaulish languages.
Welsh people are also high on red hair and that can not be contested,while in France red hair is even more rare than it is in Norway.
To contest that France have a lot of genetics from Gauls I think is not possible,since is well known that ancestors of today French people were mostly Gauls.
EDIT:
According to some source,the percentage of red heads in France is 0.03% which I think is more than 1000 times lower than the percentage of red heads in Wales,Ireland and Scotland.

 

[toyomotor]

The people who believe that whole "Black Irish descend from Armada soldiers" crock are not really "historians". Even your referred to article dismisses the whole thing as practically baseless.

So much of our current thinking in the area of DNA is based on what has been found so far. Time, further "finds" and the advancement of technology will no doubt alter many current beliefs. I threw in the "Spanish Armada" as an alternative view, not as fact. We still have a while to wait before the original question can be answered with any authority.

 

[Drac II]

I agree with much of what you said, but come on, the basque are like 85% genetically similar to modern spaniards and very similar to west Europeans as well! nothing other than their language necessarily indicates they were pre indo European, certainly their genetics don't.

You are discarding the other side of the coin too fast: The reason for this genetic similarity with Basques can be because the other Western Europeans are strongly influenced by Pre-Indo-European populations.

 

[Knovas]

Quite obvious. And don't forget that Indo-European speakers from close regions such as Gascony, Aragón, or even Catalonia, quite often deviate towards Basques when the vast majority of Spaniards and French don't. So that is telling us something about the pre-Indo-European substratum.

No one said on the other hand Basques remained unaltered since the Neolithic: basically they were the less affected by subsequent migrations, the same as Sardinians with some differences due to the fact that Basques show more Northern European affinities (lower among Sardinians).

 

[adamo]

Sardinians have very low R1b frequencies and that R1b arrived recently. He Sardinians are very representative of old European populations, having 40-45% I2a1a. The basques are 90% R1b of the same variety found today across much of westernmost Europe. What is the link exactly you are trying to make knovas?

 

[Knovas]

Sardinian Y-DNA frequencies tell absolutely nothing. They have very high I2a1a (I2a2??WTF) for instance, which obviously didn't originate there (the same as R1b in the case of Basques). No reason to assume I2a1a is not recent among Sardinians (diversity in Iberia speaks for itself). So Y-DNA is not particularly informative in that matter, you'd better ask yourself what are you trying to deny here.

To make it more clear, Basques and Sardinians share the same componenets with different proportions. Makes sense considering Basques are more "Continental" European than Sardinians. And both usually lack West Asian afinities in most admixture experiments, what leads to the conclusion they are good proxies for pre-Indo-European inhabitants, since their Indo-European speaking neighbours all have some West Asian.

As for the language issues, other forumers already gave you the answer.