There is Greaco-Aryan clade but also known under the name Graeco-Armeno-Aryan.I agree that Armenian did not came from the Balkans,moreover I think that proto Greeks too arrived from that territory somewhere.
Bronze age Trialeti Culture in Transcaucasia
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There is Greaco-Aryan clade but also known under the name Graeco-Armeno-Aryan.I agree that Armenian did not came from the Balkans,moreover I think that proto Greeks too arrived from that territory somewhere.
If the Tarim mummies are really Tocharians which most probably they are,the haplogroup they belong to is R1a,then the label of certain haplogroups or clades of R1a as satem or Easterners(Indo Iranians,Balto-Slavs etc) or R1b as centum doesn't make sense, rather the time of their separation.In my opinion the Tocharians,Hittites(perhaps) and Italo Celts will be the first to separate.Then we have satem innovation which will affect almost all of other daughter languages Indo Iranian,Balto Slavic,Armenian,Albanian,Thracian,Dacian partly Greek with exception of Germanic.Despite this division of Centum/Satem some languages seem to be more close related to each other whether is geographic proximity or shared history, for example in my opinion Germanic(centum) is more closely related to Balto Slavic than to Greek (centum) or the Greek (centum) more closely related to Indo-Aryan and Armenian(satem) than to Italo Celtic or Germanic(centum).
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bicicleur 2
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AFAIK the Tarim mummies are R1a1a-M198xM417
there is no proof they are Tocharian, neither Afanasievo
but it is possible, of course
I agree except if they can test Tocharian speakers we can throw away any doubt,anyway there in Tarim basin where we should find Indo Iranian if any IE speakers we have centum language and not related to Indo Iranians,if they aren't some wandering Celts which is doubtful considering they take this language as archaic,but anything is possible, anyway for now I'm inclined to think Tarim mummies are Tocharians.
Fire Haired14
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The Tarim mummies are negative for Z93. They haven't been tested for M417.
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The first rather short 'sword' is from the Transcaucasus. The first unambiguous swords appear in Anatolia (Alaca Höyük) and spread into the Caucasus, the Levant and the Aegean with quite some delay.
Afaik Ukraine and the western steppe never hosted particularly advanced metallurgy.
The chariot, too, likely spread into Europe from Anatolia. Littauer & Crouwel have published a very technical analysis of the first Mycenean chariots, which is a bit over my head to be frank. Drews summarizes the evidence in his The Coming of the Greeks (p. 173):
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Armenians are satem speakers with predominantly R1b, I don't see why there can't also be a centum speaking group with R1a.
bicicleur 2
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swords are long daggers
around 1700 BC technology appeared to make bronze swords of over 1 meter long
Bronze Age swords appear from around the 17th century BC, in the Black Sea region and the Aegean, as a further development of the dagger.
when did those swords appear in Alaca Hoyük?
where and when did first horse-drawn charriots with spoked wheels appear in Anatolia?
the charriot was not of practical use for the Myceneans, it was more a ceremonial status symbol
The Coming of the Greeks is dated 1988.
Barry Cunliffe certainly knew about this, but in 'Europe between the Oceans', 2008 page 222-223 he favours the Ural-Volga steppe-forest area for earliest known charriots with an early introduction into the Carpathian Basin.
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MarkoZ
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According to Ziad Sherazadishvilli the first long sword appears 2,500 B.C. at aforementioned Alaca Höyük. This is after centuries of local experimentation with long daggers, early rapiers and such. The article can be found in the International Symposium on Anatolia-South Caucasus Cultures: Proceedings I.
The spoked is first attested in Anatolia in Kültepe Karum II level in a cylinder seal. The first three-dimensional spoked wheels on a metal toy are found at the Burnt Palace of Acemhöyük dated to the 19th-18th century B.C. . My source is The Earliest Three-Dimensional Evidence for Spoked Wheels by Littauer and Crouwel.
bicicleur 2
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Swords in Alaca Hoyuk 800 years before they appeared elsewhere, if this is true, it is quite remarkable and we should hear more about this the coming years.
I don't know about the chariots.
Fact is that the Mitanni ca 1500 BC became a military force who got the upperhand over both the Hittites and the Egyptians due to their horse-drawn chariots.
They must have had better chariots or more likely better trained horses. And the horse-trainers they were speaking an Indic language, Sintashta-derived.
The Hittites, and probably also the Egyptians invited Mitanni horse-trainers to their courts in order to fill the technological gap.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli
Yetos
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the first swords with meaning of sword were made by Minoans
although at Arslan tepe known as Melite Malateia Malatya around 3000 BC
they found shorter bars that might be swords.
although at Arslan tepe known as Melite Malateia Malatya around 3000 BC
they found shorter bars that might be swords.
IronSide
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I wanted to share this with you, since it's relevant to the topic of this thread.
https://www.academia.edu/25264019/Royal_tombs_with_horse_sacrifices_in_Nerkin_Naver_Armenia_middle_bronze_age_
Interesting is they found pots with depictions of six wheels, which most probably denoted three chariots linked together.
https://www.academia.edu/25264019/Royal_tombs_with_horse_sacrifices_in_Nerkin_Naver_Armenia_middle_bronze_age_
Interesting is they found pots with depictions of six wheels, which most probably denoted three chariots linked together.
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IronSide
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Their genetics (Middle BA Armenia) are interesting:
1 Caucasian 30.35
2 Baloch 28.51
3 NE-Euro 20.9
4 SW-Asian 7
5 American 6.49
6 W-African 3.48
7 San 3.27
another result:
1 Caucasian 38.66
2 Baloch 23.13
3 NE-Euro 18.57
4 Mediterranean 9.34
5 SW-Asian 4.94
6 W-African 1.99
7 American 1.3
8 Papuan 0.92
9 Beringian 0.59
10 Siberian 0.54
Both have African admixture, the source of this I believe is Northern Europe, since NE Euro and Mediterranean also increased.
I find this interesting because it might explain how my haplgroup I2c2 (Mesolithic Sweden), A1b1, C-V20, H2 reached Armenia
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject?iframe=yresults
I know that I'm a bit late to the party, maybe we can resume it?
Could the MLBA/MBA Steppe-derived "Armenians" actually be Indo-Iranians and not Armenian speakers? For example, the Mitanni ruling class?
G2ian
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Gutian sounds like Gudian which in Kartvelian folklore are ugly men that kidnap children. Mothers scare their kids with Gudians in order to make them behave.
Wow I didn't realize how many Armenians push this "Mushki-Armenian" hypothesis. They were Proto-Kartvelian Meskhs that lived in exact place where Meskhetian kingdom sprung up.
It wasn't Armenians who came up with the Mushki-Armenian hypothesis, it was Diakonoff, who was a Russian, and I believe it was endorsed by Greppin, who was an American.
That being said, there is no consensus as to what the Mushki were, or even if they were a single people. They may have been Kartvelian (at least partially) but all that is really known about them is that they were conflated with the Phrygians (who were indeed Indo-Europeans), they settled in Cappadocia, and the one or two Mushki names that we have (Mita and possibly Kurti/Kurtis) are Indo-European.
And obviously Meshkhet is in modern Georgia, but that doesn't do much to help us. We know that there were Indo-Europeans there too (which doesn't negate Kartvelians being there).
There's even a theory (I believe suggested by a Georgian researcher...maybe Meilikshivili, I cannot remember for sure) that the word Somxeti is related to the "Mushki."
Merhaba
H I could not find which example in Hollardin's article has str values showing cts7763, I suspect that this branch is Afanasievo.