Can a Spaniard, Romanian, and Swiss Italian understand Corsican?

HereToLearn said:
To me, as a native Italian speaker from Lombardy, Corsican sounds like a Frenchman speaking a central-southern Italian dialect (kind of "ciociaro-like", then again I'm not an expert of central-southern Italian dialects, just the general sound of them).
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I agree with you on all of this.

The usual masculine singular noun endings are in -u not in -o as in Standard Italian

I would add that northern Corsican around Cap Corse is definitely Tuscanized but without the distinctive "Gorgia Toscana"

Corsican surnames are definitely more like those in northern and central Italy, especially Tuscany.
 
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Nicu said:
I feel like something like Napulitano would've been a better one to include for comparison to Romanian. There is some overlap of sounds between them, including the 'uh' type sounds, from what I've noticed (and they are also both south/east of the LaSpezia-Rimini Line)

Or maybe even Venetian or Friulian.

Corsican on the other hand is a bit more distant, and it seems phonetically influenced by French somewhat in its pronunciation.
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For I know Corsican is not influenced by "French" pronounciation, at least among old generations. Its peculiarities seem rather influenced by some old substratum, maybe the same as among ancient Ligurians, substratum that could even had some input on other Western Romance languages (Iberia, France...) and Celtic ones. Corsican is even not completely homogenous, between North and South, North more under input of this supposed substratum. Uneasy to be affirmative.
 
MOESAN said:
For I know Corsican is not influenced by "French" pronounciation, at least among old generationsP.
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Probably rhotacism goes a long way to that effect. What I can say for sure is that it doesn't sound like Ligurian at all (nor to any other Northern Italian dialect).

In fact it is quite impressive how clear it sounds to standard Italian speakers:

Much more than some Northern Italian dialects for sure.
 
HereToLearn said:
Probably rhotacism goes a long way to that effect. What I can say for sure is that it doesn't sound like Ligurian at all (nor to any other Northern Italian dialect).

In fact it is quite impressive how clear it sounds to standard Italian speakers:

Much more than some Northern Italian dialects for sure.
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Remember there are local dialectical differences even in such a small island.
 
Here's an example from Ajaccio:

I'm not sure, it still sounds central Italian spoken by French to my untrained (native northern Italian) ears: "magno"... "salciccie"...

Very fascinating!
 
HereToLearn said:
Here's an example from Ajaccio:

I'm not sure, it still sounds central Italian spoken by French to my untrained (native northern Italian) ears: "magno"... "salciccie"...

Very fascinating!
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Maybe the Genoese dialect has passed away in Ajaccio.
 
HereToLearn said:
Probably rhotacism goes a long way to that effect. What I can say for sure is that it doesn't sound like Ligurian at all (nor to any other Northern Italian dialect).

In fact it is quite impressive how clear it sounds to standard Italian speakers:

Much more than some Northern Italian dialects for sure.
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This seems to be the Tuscanized variety of northern Corsica.

See the ""Passatempi" section in the Corsican Language Wikipedia article which compares Standard Italian, Island of Elba Tuscan, North and South Corsican and various Sardinian dialects.
 
Although is close to Sardinia it only has small coincidences with "logudorese" or "Campidanese" like the "u" or "s" in some final words, of course "gallurese" (northern sardinian dialect) is much closer. Comunque, si capisce molto bene, per chi parla italiano...
 
HereToLearn said:
Probably rhotacism goes a long way to that effect. What I can say for sure is that it doesn't sound like Ligurian at all (nor to any other Northern Italian dialect).

In fact it is quite impressive how clear it sounds to standard Italian speakers:

Much more than some Northern Italian dialects for sure.
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ancient Ligurians are not today 'Ligurian' of Northern Italy.
It's evident that modern Liguria genuine inhabitants had received also Celtic genetic input + kept more linguistic relations with Western Romances languages and less ancestral Mediterranean input, when Corsicans were remained with closer linguistic relations with Toscana. So different results. But Corsican stops are different from Standard Italian stops, Corsican closer to Iberian dialects for that, particularly northern Corsica, if what I read was true. A lot of sonorization/lenition, even in initial stops, like in modern Celtic.
 
I'm not sure how a modern Ligurian is supposed to be any more "Celtic" than an ancient Ligurian, or viceversa, probably that could be the subject of another thread anyway. Just, out of curiosity, could you please make an example of a Corsican stop?
 
MOESAN said:
ancient Ligurians are not today 'Ligurian' of Northern Italy.
It's evident that modern Liguria genuine inhabitants had received also Celtic genetic input + kept more linguistic relations with Western Romances languages and less ancestral Mediterranean input, when Corsicans were remained with closer linguistic relations with Toscana. So different results. But Corsican stops are different from Standard Italian stops, Corsican closer to Iberian dialects for that, particularly northern Corsica, if what I read was true. A lot of sonorization/lenition, even in initial stops, like in modern Celtic.
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If you read the samples, Standard Italian, Elban Tuscan, North and South Corsican, Sardinian variants, in the Corsican Language Wikipedia article you will find very little that is not Tuscan-like or Sardinian-like.

Certainly nothing particularly Iberian.
 
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HereToLearn said:
I'm not sure how a modern Ligurian is supposed to be any more "Celtic" than an ancient Ligurian, or viceversa, probably that could be the subject of another thread anyway. Just, out of curiosity, could you please make an example of a Corsican stop?
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I was not clear enough, sorry. At first concerning Corsica I spoke of ancient Ligurians, and for me modern Ligurians are no more a full Ligurian pop. It's my todate position.
ATW substrata are not always easy to put some clear ethnic label on them. I think since a logn time that some western pop of Europe has had strong enough effects on IE phonetic, which effects have left traces on SOME Romance languages as well as on modern Celtic languages, traces that were not found so clearly on other IE languages, this maybe since the step from CA to BA. True or false, in my mind what I call 'Ligurian substratum' could even be a pre-Ligurian substratum. But it's not an allover Mediterranean substratum.
All that is a personal opinion. Some linguists refute any great substrata effect and speak rather of changes in languages structures: question of "religion"...
Corsican stops in pronounciation (according to someones):
lénition ou sonorisation (voicing) of hard (unvoiced) stops between vowels, even at the begining of words, except after accentued final vowels (accentuated in writing, not by force with stress) surely finals with lost of an ancient consonnant). So the writings is closer to standard Italian than the pronounciation:
northern Corsican (roughly said and turned into pseudo-phonetic)
'O piaceri!' > [o bya'djeri] - 'u viaghju durava dui ghjorni' > [oo wi'adyoo oorawa 'ooi yorni] -
'Cù quellu battellacciu di Marsiglia' > [koo 'kwelloo watel'latchoo (h)i mar'selya] : no lenition of 'quellu' after 'cù' ('u' accentuated, from ancient 'cun' - no lenition between vowels for double stops -in southern Corsican the lenition would less frequent, and some southern traits appear (like -dd- for -ll-).
I'm not a specialist as you know, I just read this in Corsican anguages methods.
Nevertheless I 'll read what Wikipedia saids about this matter.
 
I read the Wiki about Tuscan and I didn't see (spite what they write) a too much close phonetic evolution between Tuscan and Corsican dialects. It seems the links are more on the lexical side? (I'm not knowledged enough to say).
The Corsican accent is like a serious softening or a weakening of the Italian pronounciation ("articulation"), what could confirm the stereotype of "lazy Corsicans" (LOL).
 
HereToLearn said:
True! That does have a Tuscan flavour if I forget the very "invasive sounding" rothacism.
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As a Tuscan myself i can hear some little Tuscan flavour indeed but very very mixed with more southward Central Italian dialects like Umbrian and Tuscan ( Aretino more than something like Florentine or Pisan ) almost fades away soon . In some moments i can't hear Tuscan at all but Umbrian with some Sicilian intonations as well, like for example from 1:14 to 1:20, when he says "In ogni caso, in ogni lezione" sound like a Sicilian intonation to my ears . Very weird.
 
thejoker said:
As a Tuscan myself i can hear some little Tuscan flavour indeed but very very mixed with more southward Central Italian dialects like Umbrian and Tuscan ( Aretino more than something like Florentine or Pisan ) almost fades away soon . In some moments i can't hear Tuscan at all but Umbrian with some Sicilian intonations as well, like for example from 1:14 to 1:20, when he says "In ogni caso, in ogni lezione" sound like a Sicilian intonation to my ears . Very weird.
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Hi thejoker:

Regarding the Corsican language, I freely confess I know nothing about other than it is part of the Romance Language family of languages which of course ultimately stem from "Proto-Italic", but it is close to Tuscan which from my understanding is the basis for Standard Italian. Regarding Romance Languages, all of them have as their immediate ancestor Vulgar Latin. Not to turn this into a theology discussion but Vulgar Latin was as I am sure you know the language of the commoners in Rome during late antiquity and can be differentiated from Ecclesial Latin, which is very close to Classical Latin from the Roman Republican era. In 382 AD, Pope Damasus asked Saint Jerome to update the older Latin Bible and do a new translation. That translation became the Latin Vulgate Bible which became what was used in Liturgical Readings of the Bible at the Mass/Liturgy in the Western half of the Roman empire whereas Greek was used in the Eastern part.

So from Romance you get 2 branches, the Italo-Dalmatian branch and the Gallo-Italian-Iberian. Standard Italian, which standardizes what was spoken in Tuscany comes from the Italo-Dalmatian branch, as does Neapolitan and Sicilian, both which are Languages not corruptions of Standard Italian. Corsican along with other Central Italian languages are from the Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance. I think the Balkan Romance languages are from Italo-Dalmatian. From the Gallo-Italo-Iberian you get Western Romance such as Portuguese, Spanish and Catalan, Northern Gallo leads to French and then Gallo-Italian such as Ligurian, Emilian, Piedmontese are also languages, not corruptions of standard Italian.

As a side note, there is a Gallo-Italian Sicilian language that was also integrated into the Sicilian language and influences the dialects of the Sicilian Language spoken across the Island.

Buona giornata, PT
 
MOESAN said:
I read the Wiki about Tuscan and I didn't see (spite what they write) a too much close phonetic evolution between Tuscan and Corsican dialects. It seems the links are more on the lexical side? (I'm not knowledged enough to say).
The Corsican accent is like a serious softening or a weakening of the Italian pronounciation ("articulation"), what could confirm the stereotype of "lazy Corsicans" (LOL).
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Wikipedia's pages on linguistics, particularly this one on Corsican, are poorly done.

There is a lot of internal variation in Corsica, Corsican is usually classified as Tuscan I guess mainly for syntax of Medieval Tuscan, but modern Corsican does not resemble modern Tuscan very much, it sounds more like some Central Italian languages (the so called Dialetti italiani mediani) with something reminiscent of southern dialects, as if it were some kind of hybrid of Middle and Southern-Central dialects. In fact, the classification on the Corsican language is still open, and it is now considered outdated to regard it as a mere offshoot of Tuscan.

Some articles in the Encyclopdia Treccani devoted to the Corsican language are definitely better done.

I fenomeni descritti permettono di inserire le varietà corse nella compagine dei dialetti italoromanzi, con i quali si accordano in modo vario. L’indubbia toscanizzazione dell’area settentrionale (ad es. nel vocalismo tonico) e la presenza di tratti coincidenti col toscano antico (ad es. l’impersonale con omo; pòltru «puledro») e anche marginale (ad es. l’enclisi del possessivo attestata in Garfagnana e all’Elba) sono stati determinanti per associare il corso al toscano nelle classificazioni e, in certo modo, per metterne in secondo piano l’originalità. Gli studiosi, tuttavia, hanno rilevato subito la continuità col sardo nell’area meridionale e ipotizzato una maggiore unità linguistica dell’isola precedente il periodo toscano, così come hanno individuato concordanze con i dialetti meridionali (ad es. la sonorizzazione delle consonanti sorde). Recentemente è stata avanzata l’ipotesi di un’area intertirrenica che accorperebbe le isole e l’Italia meridionale (Nesi 2002: 968-969; Durand 2003: 29-30).
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HereToLearn said:
Probably rhotacism goes a long way to that effect. What I can say for sure is that it doesn't sound like Ligurian at all (nor to any other Northern Italian dialect).

In fact it is quite impressive how clear it sounds to standard Italian speakers:

Much more than some Northern Italian dialects for sure.
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Ligurian in Corsica was spoken mainly in Bonifacio (Extreme south of Corsica in front of Sardinia), and in Calvi (northwestern Corsica). But very few people speak it today. In Calvi, which is where the ferries from France arrive, none now. Simeoni was born in Corte and grew up in Lozzi, in central Corsica, on the border between Oltramontan and Cismontane dialects. So in any case, he is not expected to speak Ligurian.
 
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