Case Of Gao Rongrong, Tortured Falun Gong

[JackInBox]

Yep! Whether FG is good or bad is quite irrelevant to these questions. Justice has to be applied on an individual basis. What has this indivdiual done to deserve such a treatment?

Can anybody prove these are fake pictures. Can anybody say these facts are wrong for Gao Rongrong.

 

[bossel]

There shouldn't be practices of torture in the world, period. It is a serious global problem, and there should be a global effort to eradicate torture. We should then lend our support to Amnesty Intl., the Red Cross, the UN Human Rights Commission and other NGOs to strengthen universal conventions against torture and institute a system of supervision. We should petition our own governments to sign on and end all practices of torture if they practise them.
[...]
Is the Chinese govt. uniquely "evil" because of its crackdown on FG as asserted? It is no better than all the other governments, the US, Israel, Egypt, Indonesia, Russia, that practises religion and political repression.

Generally, I can agree with your line of argument here. The problem I have is your strange reaction in this particular case. Because, the same you said now about the PRC government being not alone with using torture & inhumane treatment in its legal system, could be applied to the Japanese government & the question of its treatment of history. Yet, in case of Japan, IIRC, you vehemently argued against any equation.

In fact, the Epoch Times unequivocally supports Bush and the US wars in Iraq with no mention of US sanctioned torture, many cases of which are harrowing. If the judgement of the cults is irrelevant to how they should be treated, then it is no different with the Branch Davidians.

May very well be that the Epoch Times is biased, but in how far does that invalidate the case of Gao Rongrong?

Since you don't trust the E-Times, maybe amnesty will do?
The crackdown on Falun Gong and other so-called ''heretical organizations''

The case we discuss here is not included, but you don't want to discuss it, anyway.

 

[qwertyu]

Because, the same you said now about the PRC government being not alone with using torture & inhumane treatment in its legal system, could be applied to the Japanese government & the question of its treatment of history. Yet, in case of Japan, IIRC, you vehemently argued against any equation.

I would think that the proportion of death and destruction of the Holocaust, in Europe and Asia would set it apart from discourse of "human rights abuses" which include torture, unlawful imprisonment, etc. You can't compare apples and oranges, but apples to apples. I would compare Japan and Germany because of the sheer unprecedented scale of deaths [tens even hundreds of millions in total] and unmatched brutality, which entitle them to be distinguished from other abuses. I would also compare, say, Stalin's excesses with Mao's, but not with Hitler. The context matters.

In no way am I proposing that China's use of torture shouldn't be condemned when they happen. Nor am I suggesting that the FG's spotty record and its leader's shenanigans would nullify their right to demand justice and a fair hearing. This would be the equivalent of those insisting that China cannot protest Japan's revisionism because China's own history texts are less than forthcoming, which is what you are refering to, isn't it?

However, I am questioning why it is suddenly a salient topic on JRef? And I am also raising the point that the FG itself is on a media offensive, and a lot of disinformation and unsubstatiated evidence [eg. China aids the terrorism against the US] are disseminated on Epoch Times. I don't have any problems with them sticking to FG allegations, eg. featuring Cao's and others' stories, but the other "information" appear to be simply no-holds-barred media warfare and propaganda, which to me is highly amusing in its extremity, but who knows, it might work on less skeptical minds. To compare, this current revisionism tirade against Japan is focused specifically on the subject. If the Chinese protestors start straying away from WWII issues and vilify almost everything about Japan, trying to persuade the world how uniquely "evil" it is, I think it should give us some pause about believing everything they claim.

As an illustration, say, I am an American vehemently against capital punishment. Imagine if I were to start a thread about capital punishment in Russia on JRef, posting pictures of a dead female prisoner, her grieving family, etc. demanding why the world would tolerate this brutal practice, while shouting "Freedom!" and denouncing the brutality of the Russian Govt.

The 1st reaction would be, this is a prevalent practice by governments all over, including America's. While it is right to discuss the ignobility of state-sanctioned murder, is the thread really about this or is it to set up Russia as a kind of pinata? I.e., focusing all of our contempt for state-sanctioned murder on one particular country, while ignoring the same in the US, China, Japan, etc.? Also, if I am posting from America and capital punishment bothers me, shouldn't I start doing something I have more influence on in my own country?

And what can I hope to gain from posting this thread, since there are ways to address this through credible international orgs?

If one is objective, this isn't worse than what's happening right now all over the world. In fact, June 26th this year was Amnesty Intl.'s designated day against torture. We should all take a look:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/index.do

 

[qwertyu]

Can anybody prove these are fake pictures. Can anybody say these facts are wrong for Gao Rongrong.

Can anybody indeed? I read the Epoch Times account. It seems she jumped out of her window after being interrogated and tortured for 7 hours. Could she have sustained her most serious and fatal injuries then, such as the worst bruises in the picture, when she jumped from the 2nd flr? She was arrested at 3.00 May 7th 2004, she jumped in the evening of the same day, but the claim is that her bruises were of electric shocks to her face, when they could very well be bruises from her fall. Also, it is somehow too "convenient" that torturers "shouted" that they were shocking their next victims in their privates so it won't show on the face.

Excuse me for being a bit, um, "anal-retentive", but I was curious enough to google up electrical injuries:

http://www.expertwitness-electric.c...rders/Electrical_Injury (SSPathology)_085.jpg

You don't have blood clots on the skin surface in such injuries. Somebody better tell the Epoch Times.

To be absolutely sure, it is better to refer to more credible sources about specific cases. Also, I would take the Epoch Times more seriously if it weren't disseminating a lot of disinformation and extremist nonsense.

Frankly, by asking these series of rhetorical questions, "What right does anyboody have to torture others???", eg., with their obvious answers, the exercise probably isn't to debate but to raise a chorus. My question then, is, towards what end?

 

[qwertyu]

Sorry, the AI site itself leads with "Torture Day"

http://www.amnesty.org/

I tried looking up more recent cases of FG on AI, but the most recent was in 2002, not exactly the most urgent and salient cause if torture is indeed a problem. There are other pressing global issues, such as war.

I'm out of here. Enjoy the pinata.

 

[qwertyu]

Ok, just to be sure, I looked up "electric baton" in case the injuries it causes is different from general electrical injury, and isn't it interesting. It seems the electric baton is very popular because NO DISCERNIBLE INJURY can be seen on the tortured. See what I found on an AI site below. If this case really did exist, and strangely enough ignored by all the human rights orgs out there including the ever attentive ones sponsored by the CIA, the leading accusation [Ms. Gao Rongrong?fs Face Deformed Due to Seven Hour?fs Electric Baton Shocks; n May 7, 2004, Gao Rongrong's face is covered with burns from electric baton shocks.] is false, as the injuries cannot possibly be from electric baton torture. And since this type of torture is so "widespread" according to ET, surely this fact cannot be so mistaken by a source that has heard so many first hand account from the victims. Somebody tell the Epoch Times, please, to review their webpages. This could hurt their credibility!

What about the rest of the story about "thousands dead from persecution"? AI's FG site is a must-read and it indeed documented thousands of arrests, but only 10 deaths in custody [scroll to bottom of report]. Of the 10, with detailed description, names, age, province, etc., at least 1 was a clear boiler room accident [the other 2 FG members present were saved], 2 threw themselves off trains, 1 threw herself off a building, 1 hunger striker died from forced feeding. The rest seem more straightforward torture-induced deaths. Most of this take place from 1999-2000, and AI is at least honest enough to admit that they can't verify that all these allegations by FG are true. That's still unsupportable for 5 possible deaths by torture, but it must be pointed out that there is a great discrepancy between the ET and AI. As for the PCness of banning FG, that's another debate.

I think I am first struck by how "strange" the whole tone of the story sound to be a bit skeptical about its intention, but it really works doesn't it, in triggering the right reaction. Maybe the next "case" presented will have less loop-holes.

It's interesting, though, how ready we are to accept and expect the worse, without question, of the "usual suspects". Remember "the organs harvested from prisoners" hysteria initiated by another prominent Chinese CIA-supported dissident that wasn't? Oh well...


http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/terror_trade_times/ttt_4.htm

"'Stop the beating... electric batons don't leave scars'

"Roberto", a 50-year-old university professor, felt the hail of sticks subside as the Zairian officer commanded his men to stop the beating.

Not because the officer suddenly saw his men were out of control. And not because he had been overcome by a sudden wave of compassion. But because, in the officer's own words, "it will leave scars and we will get complaints from Amnesty International."

Instead, he ordered his men to use an electroshock baton."

 

[Iron Chef]

Looking back at this thread I saw Qwertyu raise this point:

"However, I am questioning why it is suddenly a salient topic on JRef?"

Just an observation... but it seems to me that you're the one going to great lengths to dismiss, downplay, and deflect this topic from every possible angle. You've already made 9 replies in this thread alone (the last 4 in fact prior to my posting). If you wanted to just let it die... it probably would have done so on its own.

 

[qwertyu]

Actually, I don't intend to "kill" it, because unless it veers into a downward spiral of name-calling/bashing, it is worth debating even as to the whys and hows beyond the surface and convention. It always helps to clarify my own thinking/logic and to prompt some googling when challenged and questioned by fellow posters, and I hope I'm returning the same favour! [although at times, a bit too hot-headedly]. I'm curious as to a new slew of much quoted info from Epoch Times, which I mistakenly thought was a comic Taiwan Independence lobby/Jesse Helms/CIA sort of vehicle, and even for myself, it has become a very interesting voyage of discovery, the deeper I dig into the convoluted information about FG, and found links that explained its background and connection to the ET. Such new knowledge is always interesting. Also, although the pictures don't look convincing to me initially because the bruises look more like impact/abrasion, I would never have known that electric batons don't leave scars, but out of curiosity and a challenge from another poster, I looked it up and learned something new about torture from AI.