Celtiberian ethnicity_ (See before say that someone is iberian)

[Angela]

^^That is French Basque. The steppe is almost the same. The difference is more WHG in the Spanish Basque, which makes sense.

 

[ROS]

If the theory says that the Basque R1b comes from the steppe with faults higher than 80% or 90% as they have so little autosomal steppe, even according to some studies there are Basque people with 0% steppe ?.


Honestly the explanations that I have heard so far do not convince me, in this theory something is not right.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Anyway, we do get some information about similarity of various areas to the Rathlin samples, and while Spain has more than Italy, it's pretty faint.

Actually those who have more similarity to the Rathlin 1 sample are the Tuscans, even slightly more than Spanish.

The modern populations who "received the most haplotypes" from Rathlin1.

Scottish 36.512
Ireland 36.313
Welsh 35.745
Germany Austria 33.658
French 32.299
English 32.213
Norwegian 31.425
Orcadian 30.072
Tuscan 29.202
Spanish 28.613
Hungarian 28.995
Belorussian 28.418
North Italian 27.829
Lezgin 27.029
Romanian 26.692
Polish 26.957
Finnish 26.431
Bulgarian 26.21
South Italian 26.127
Russian 25.537
Lithuanian 25.067
East Sicilian 24.689
West Sicilian 24.509
Greek 24.341

 

[AdeoF]

Actually those who have more similarity to the Rathlin 1 sample are the Tuscans, even slightly more than Spanish.

The modern populations who "received the most haplotypes" from Rathlin1.

Tuscan 29.202
Spanish 28.613

Yeah but still that's only 1% more so it really does not make much of a difference on the Rathlin. Even the North Italian is 1% less then the Spanish aswell.

 

[AdeoF]

That's a good point, Ygorbr, as far as the people who actually went into Spain and Italy. We need more proximate ancient dna samples to compare not only to the steppe, but to Iberian and Italian and Balkan MN people, and to modern people of those areas, which is why I said they might have been as much as half-steppe.

Anyway, the "steppe" in southern Europe, 26% in my case, 29% in Adeo's, for example, wouldn't only have come from "Insular Celtic" or Rathlin related peoples. It would have come from the Italics, Ligures, Veneti, part of the ancestry of the Iberians etc., as well as the later Germanic tribes and whatever they brought with them. That might all be more related to the Hungarian Bronze Age part of the graphic.
.

That could explain why I score high with Northern Italians and sometimes Tuscans with the Oracle. That's very interesting, even in DNA tests Italian (or anything else grouped with Italian) is the 2nd highest.

E.G (Dodecad K12B) (I can give out more Oracles)

1	Galicia (1000Genomes)	7.63
2	Extremadura (1000Genomes)	8.36
3	Portuguese (Dodecad)	8.37
4	Baleares (1000Genomes)	8.56
5	N_Italian (Dodecad)	8.76
6	North_Italian (HGDP)	9.89
7	Castilla_Y_Leon (1000Genomes)	10.85
8	Murcia (1000Genomes)	10.96
9	Cataluna (1000Genomes)	11.72
10	Canarias (1000Genomes)	12.01

 

[Angela]

That could explain why I score high with Northern Italians and sometimes Tuscans with the Oracle. That's very interesting, even in DNA tests Italian (or anything else grouped with Italian) is the 2nd highest.

E.G (Dodecad K12B) (I can give out more Oracles)

1	Galicia (1000Genomes)	7.63
2	Extremadura (1000Genomes)	8.36
3	Portuguese (Dodecad)	8.37
4	Baleares (1000Genomes)	8.56
5	N_Italian (Dodecad)	8.76
6	North_Italian (HGDP)	9.89
7	Castilla_Y_Leon (1000Genomes)	10.85
8	Murcia (1000Genomes)	10.96
9	Cataluna (1000Genomes)	11.72
10	Canarias (1000Genomes)	12.01

Oh, I believe you; I see it in my own results. On dodecad I get slightly different percentages depending on the calculator, but the Spanish populations are usually way up there, and if not them, Balkan populations. It all has to do with genetic ties between Southern European areas, imo, shared ancestry that is very old.

1	N_Italian (Dodecad)	6.7
2	O_Italian (Dodecad)	7.36
3	TSI (HapMap)	7.63
4	Tuscan (HGDP)	7.95
5	Tuscan (Henn)	8.05
6	North_Italian (HGDP)	8.31
7	Tuscan (Xing)	8.75
8	C_Italian (Dodecad)	12.33
9	IBS (1000Genomes)	14.51
10	Portuguese (Dodecad)	14.94
11	Sardinian (HGDP)	15.18
12	Spaniards (Behar)	15.3
13	Spanish (Dodecad)	15.44
14	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	18.01

Not all Italians get such high relatedness to Iberians. I think northwestern Italians have a particular affinity for Iberians because of 1) higher than average Italian percentages of shared "Western" farmer ancestry, which you can see on the Cassidy graphic above as "Irish" Neolithic, and 2) Rathlin type ancestry which came into Italy largely from Gaul.

Of course, all Italians and Spaniards would also share steppe (and Central European MN ancestry) from more "Hungarian Bronze Age" type migrations, and from the eastern Neolithic as well.

Then there is some shared J2 ancestry and Gothic ancestry.

I've always thought that the major differences were higher NA in Spain, versus more Caucasus in Italy, but perhaps even more importantly, more WHG in Iberia. They survived better there, I think.

Still, a great many similarities: Iberia is often my closest or second closest area after Italians, even before Southern Italians for me.

Another interesting thing is that Ralph and Coop figured it out with IBD analysis quite a few years ago (2013). It's too bad they're not concentrating on human population genetics any more. Despite the large similarities in genetic make-up, it's all old, really ancient, certainly not in the Roman era.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

"There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years"

"Patterns for the Iberian peninsula are similar, with both Spain and Portugal showing very few common ancestors with other populations over the last 2,500 years. However, the rate of IBD sharing within the peninsula is much higher than within Italy—during the last 1,500 years the Iberian peninsula shares fewer than two genetic common ancestors with other populations, compared to roughly 30 per pair within the peninsula; Italians share on average only about eight with each other during this period."

 

[Pax Augusta]

Rathlin type ancestry which came into Italy largely from Gaul.

In my opinion Rathlin type ancestry came into Italy with the migrations from the Urnfield cultures (proto-Villanovans, Scamozzina, Canegrate, Golasecca...). It's a Bronze age sample, after all.

 

[Angela]

In my opinion Rathlin type ancestry came into Italy with the migrations from the Urnfield cultures (proto-Villanovans, Scamozzina, Canegrate, Golasecca...). It's a Bronze age sample, after all.

Hungarian Bronze Age is also a Bronze Age culture, as its name tells us. These Bronze Age cultures were different from one another. Cassidy was looking at very specific samples from specific cultures. The Rathlin sample in Italy tracks with the movement of the Gauls into northwestern Italy and Tuscany, not the Veneto or the "Latin", Italic areas of Italy. Urnfield is, I think, more similar to Hungarian Bronze Age.

It would be interesting to see this done for Urnfield, and see the areas of genetic overlap.

 

[AdeoF]

Oh, I believe you; I see it in my own results. On dodecad I get slightly different percentages depending on the calculator, but the Spanish populations are usually way up there, and if not them, Balkan populations. It all has to do with genetic ties between Southern European areas, imo, shared ancestry that is very old.

1	N_Italian (Dodecad)	6.7
2	O_Italian (Dodecad)	7.36
3	TSI (HapMap)	7.63
4	Tuscan (HGDP)	7.95
5	Tuscan (Henn)	8.05
6	North_Italian (HGDP)	8.31
7	Tuscan (Xing)	8.75
8	C_Italian (Dodecad)	12.33
9	IBS (1000Genomes)	14.51
10	Portuguese (Dodecad)	14.94
11	Sardinian (HGDP)	15.18
12	Spaniards (Behar)	15.3
13	Spanish (Dodecad)	15.44
14	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	18.01

Not all Italians get such high relatedness to Iberians. I think northwestern Italians have a particular affinity for Iberians because of 1) higher than average Italian percentages of shared "Western" farmer ancestry, which you can see on the Cassidy graphic above as "Irish" Neolithic, and 2) Rathlin type ancestry which came into Italy largely from Gaul.

Of course, all Italians and Spaniards would also share steppe (and Central European MN ancestry) from more "Hungarian Bronze Age" type migrations, and from the eastern Neolithic as well.

Then there is some shared J2 ancestry and Gothic ancestry.

I've always thought that the major differences were higher NA in Spain, versus more Caucasus in Italy, but perhaps even more importantly, more WHG in Iberia. They survived better there, I think.

Still, a great many similarities: Iberia is often my closest or second closest area after Italians, even before Southern Italians for me.

Another interesting thing is that Ralph and Coop figured it out with IBD analysis quite a few years ago (2013). It's too bad they're not concentrating on human population genetics any more. Despite the large similarities in genetic make-up, it's all old, really ancient, certainly not in the Roman era.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

"There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years"

"Patterns for the Iberian peninsula are similar, with both Spain and Portugal showing very few common ancestors with other populations over the last 2,500 years. However, the rate of IBD sharing within the peninsula is much higher than within Italy—during the last 1,500 years the Iberian peninsula shares fewer than two genetic common ancestors with other populations, compared to roughly 30 per pair within the peninsula; Italians share on average only about eight with each other during this period."

Oh I was thinking it was from the similar invader/settlers (Mostly Romans) who went to both Italy and Spain even sort of from the Aragonese/Spanish empire (Milan was a part of it). However this information for newbie like me about stuff like this is understandable so that answers about why I get a high score with Northern Italians. Very Interesting

 

[MOESAN]

Assuming that all Indo-European genetics had its origin in the steppe, a rather dubious thing, especially for the centum languages? What does the steppe have to do with the Celts? Where are the Celtic toponymy in the steppe? What Celtic texts do we find in the steppe? if they are going to say that there was no writing, but of course we are joining the steppe to the Celtic and have nothing to do, the classical people never said that there were Celts in the steppe, they referred to Gaul (France) and Spain, even if the Celtic people had part of their ancestors in the steppe was long before considered as such, since Celtic not only genetics, is culture, is language, etc., which by the way the difference between the north of Spain and France in stage component is very reduced.


Therefore you can not know the percentage of celticity of a person relating it to its steppe component because they have nothing to do, it is as absurd as a calculator that tells you the percentage of Romano has a current Spanish.

The right would be based on what the classical world called Celtic and where the toponymy and Celtic texts, France, Spain, Northern Italy, in the moment before the invasion of the Roman empire remove an autosomic component and from here a calculator of the celticity, although I have always thought that all this aspect of the genetics is very manipulable and on the other hand in the calculator K36 very interesting things are observed.

Celts languages are of I-E origin and we can think I-E language formed rather in Eastern Europe than in Western Europe; evidently there is no Celtic toponymy in Steppes but there the toponymy we have is surely a recent one so rather Slavic or Satemic; since PIE times I-E dialects evolved, of course!!! That said the old Celtic DNA we have is rather close to the Northern Europe one even if auDNA doesn't always allow detailed analysis; and so shows (like BB DNA) a strong enough "eastern" input (Steppes).
Wat we can say is Celts have ancestors in the Steppes or between East-Central Europe Steppes frontier (Y-R1b too, surely rather male ancestors more than female ones) even if their precise celticity was born later in West Central Europe

 

[Seanp]

Southern French, Iberians and North Italians can plot similar, due to shared Mesolithic ancestry. I don't think there's a significant Celtic admixture in Spain as we know Iberians didn't change a lot since the Neolithic compared to Portuguese Neolithic samples. Maybe 5-20% extra Celtic, Corded Ware admixture and also 5-20% Moorish, Phoenician, Jewish admix in Andalusia and Portugal compared to Neolithic Spanish samples.

 

[ROS]

Southern French, Iberians and North Italians can plot similar, due to shared Mesolithic ancestry. I don't think there's a significant Celtic admixture in Spain as we know Iberians didn't change a lot since the Neolithic compared to Portuguese Neolithic samples. Maybe 5-20% extra Celtic, Corded Ware admixture and also 5-20% Moorish, Phoenician, Jewish admix in Andalusia and Portugal compared to Neolithic Spanish samples.

What is the Celtic additive? Which calculators include it?


What is clear is that before the Roman Empire invaded the Iberian Peninsula, in most of it there was a culture, languages, topon? Indo-European archaeological sites, there was even a tribe in southern Portugal called Cetici, there were several indiomas Celtas and we have texts written in Iberian to prove it, as well as other non-Celtic but idoeuropean languages, ie empirical and scientific evidence of history.


It's what I understand as a simple amateur, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Angela]

There's no doubt that at the time the Romans invaded Spain Celtic derived languages were being spoken there in some areas:

So, clearly, Celtic speakers had migrated there. The genetics question is a separate one. A group of Celtic speakers may have entered Spain and admixed with the people there without dramatically changing the genetic composition there.

Once again, from Haak et al, you can see the composition of LN Beaker people from Central Europe versus Spanish and Portuguese MN. In the present day, the majority of Spain has one of the lower levels of "steppe" ancestry, which the Celtic speakers would have carried, although they would have carried their own MN ancestry as well. The reason is because Spain, like the other countries of Southern Europe, was less effected by the Indo-Europeans because of high population numbers, and also perhaps because they were more mixed with MN ancestry by the time they arrived. In Spain's case, as in the case of Southern Italy/Sicily, the Moorish invasions may also have slightly altered the mix. For that reason, maybe the Northern Spain-Pais Vasco graph is more similar to what was the case in Spain when the Romans arrived.

To get more or less accurate percentages for the time of the Roman conquest, we're going to need a good quality genome of these Celt-Iberians to compare to Spanish and Portuguese MN samples.

 

[AdeoF]

Yep even with my new Y-DNA haplogroup I found out. There where Celt speakers in Iberia and the Romans came in too. The best bet is the Basque admixture since it is the most related to the Celtic/Roman era of Iberia. There are a few sites which had Celtic settlement too (there's even a few from where my family is from).

I don't know maybe I'm wrong????

 

[ROS]

What do the Celts have to do with the steppe?


I understand that the Celtic peoples are peoples of Indo-European origin who were already in the West and we have news with the classical world and assuming that they were originally from the steppe, these people have traveled throughout Europe and are in the western part , having mixed with other peoples in this journey.


Therefore it is not true, nor in the case that all the Indo-European origin was in the steppe, that Celtic = steppe.

The same would happen if the Indo-European were a Neolithic language from Anatolia, Therefore it is not true that Celtic = Anatolia.

 

[Angela]

What do the Celts have to do with the steppe?


I understand that the Celtic peoples are peoples of Indo-European origin who were already in the West and we have news with the classical world and assuming that they were originally from the steppe, these people have traveled throughout Europe and are in the western part , having mixed with other peoples in this journey.


Therefore it is not true, nor in the case that all the Indo-European origin was in the steppe, that Celtic = steppe.

The same would happen if the Indo-European were a Neolithic language from Anatolia, Therefore it is not true that Celtic = Anatolia.

I never said Celtic=Anatolia. I said the Indo-European languages, including Celtic, were brought to Europe by people from the steppe who were about 43% "Caucasus" or Near Eastern derived, and the rest, or 57%, EHG or Eastern Hunter Gatherers. When they arrived in Central Europe they mixed with Middle Neolithic European people who were about 75% Anatolian farmer like and 25% Western European Hunter Gatherers.

There's just no longer any debate possible. The closest to that "Celtic" group is probably Late German Bell Beaker from the Haak graphic I posted upthread.

I think perhaps it would be a good idea for you to read the ancient dna papers I have posted here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...es-to-Population-Genetics?p=523977#post523977

You may find Olalde et al the most informative as it is about Spain, but you need to read the prior papers to get the background.