Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

celtiberian-II

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Tibor Fehér: Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence, Academia Letters, July 2021.


Celtic studies in the last two decades lead by John T. Koch and Barry Cunliffe have questioned the validity of the long-time theory “Hallstatt Iron Age = proto-Celtic culture”, arguing for an early Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age in their “Celtic from the West” series. 1 The argument goes that Gündlingen type swords originated in the late Bronze Age Britain and Low Countries and have later spread from the West to East to spread further from the Halstatt Alpine Iron Age. The Celtic nature of Tartessian from pre-Iron Age South-Western Iberia also testifies the early Atlantic origin of proto-Celtic. Y-DNA (inherited only through the male line) and autosomal ancient DNA results increasingly support the “Celtic from the West”, going even further this paper argues for an “Italo-Celtic” from the North-West.
Recent archaeogenetic studies 2 proved that R1b-M269 males, today dominant lin- eage in Central and Western Europe originate from the Pontic-Caspian Steppes that is today’s Ukraine and Southern Russia. A pre-M269 but non-M73 male, i.e. leading from P297 towards M269 ancestor was found in Samara culture on the Volga River living around 5500 BC. It was also confirmed that the Kurgan-building Yamnaya steppe herders and their eastern offshoot Afanasievo culture (probably proto-Tocharian) belonged predominantly to Haplogroup R1b-Z2103.

Later studies clarified that late Proto-Indo-European (“Aryan proper”) language was most likely spoken in the Corded Ware Cultural (CWC) complex (2900-2350 BC). It shows significant Yamnaya-related Western Steppe Herder (WSH) autosomal ancestry, and has geographical subgroups fitting the spread of specific subfamilies. Proto-Indo-Iranians derive from Sintashta culture (2200-1800) coming from the eastern side of CWC Fatyanovo- Balanovo culture (2900-2200 BC), being mostly R1a-Z93 on the paternal line. Proto-Balto- Slavs are the candidate for descending from CWC Middle Dniepr culture (3200-2300 BC) being R1a-Z280 and moving north to replace the Mesolithic Narva culture. Battle Axe culture (2800-2300 BC) is the CWC branch in Scandinavia where R1a-Z284 and I1-M253 prevails, replacing Pitted Ware Mesolithic. Last but not least, Single Grave culture (2800-2200 BC) replaced TRB Neolithic in the North German Plain and Denmark, being ancestral to later Bell Beaker culture from 2500 BC (R1b-L11/P311).

What do you think?















 
Old question. I suppose that IEan languages appeared in Western Europe largely before Hallstatt, launched by BB's?, and that some versions of them turned later into Celtic, which took the strong side over other close dialects, some of whose were midway to both Celtic and Italic and to others. I should not be surprised if some Qw- dialects were there before Hallstatt/La Tène tribes.
BTW the "Celtic nature" of Tartessian is still in debate, it seems there were more than a language in Tartessos, one very unclear and another surely Celtic, maybe late and intrusive; but I don't know precisely WHEN appeared this "another". I 've to look at it again.
 
I saw the video of a lecture from a few years ago by Cunliffe. Horribly outdated and confused as far as population genetics go. He claimed that because R1b is most frequent and most R1b men are in Western Europe, then it's highly likely it's the point where R1b started to spread (what??? That's totally illogical even by the standards of an "amateur geneticist"). Worse, he even still claimed the genetic evidences indicate a large degree of continuity in Western Europe since the Paleolithic (WTF?!??). If it's based on that that he claims what he claims, I honestly can't give this "Celtic from the West" hypothesis any credit.
 
Old question. I suppose that IEan languages appeared in Western Europe largely before Hallstatt, launched by BB's?, and that some versions of them turned later into Celtic, which took the strong side over other close dialects, some of whose were midway to both Celtic and Italic and to others. I should not be surprised if some Qw- dialects were there before Hallstatt/La Tène tribes.
BTW the "Celtic nature" of Tartessian is still in debate, it seems there were more than a language in Tartessos, one very unclear and another surely Celtic, maybe late and intrusive; but I don't know precisely WHEN appeared this "another". I 've to look at it again.

Thank you for your comment, @Moesan.

Very interesting the hypothesis of more than a language in Tartessos with one surely Celtic and maybe late intrusive. Perhaps consequence of a maritime connection between the SW of Iberia and the north of France/Germany/...?
 
I agree YGorcs. Some naivety in some statements. I suspect a hidden opposition among some Irish and British scientists to any central or eastern European origin...
The chronologic question of Celtic before Hallstatt has to be detached from the question of geographic origin. Earlier waves could have been launched roughly from the same region of future Halstatt cultures, or close enough.
 
I saw the video of a lecture from a few years ago by Cunliffe. Horribly outdated and confused as far as population genetics go. He claimed that because R1b is most frequent and most R1b men are in Western Europe, then it's highly likely it's the point where R1b started to spread (what??? That's totally illogical even by the standards of an "amateur geneticist"). Worse, he even still claimed the genetic evidences indicate a large degree of continuity in Western Europe since the Paleolithic (WTF?!??). If it's based on that that he claims what he claims, I honestly can't give this "Celtic from the West" hypothesis any credit.

Thank you for the post, @Ygorcs.

I completely agree with you that it is not likely that R1b spread from the West (even in my amateur-no geneticist opinion). We can think on an average flow from the East but, in my opinion, it is also possible people flowing back and forth and bringing their culture, language, genes, etc.
 
Haplogroup-R1b-L21.png


https://eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

[FONT=&quot]The early split of L21 from the main Proto-Celtic branch around Germany would explain why the [/FONT]Q-Celtic languages[FONT=&quot] (Goidelic and Hispano-Celtic) diverged so much from the P-Celtic branch (La Tène, Gaulish, Brythonic), which appears to have expanded from the later Urnfield and Hallstat cultures.

If so, the P/Q split would already have occured some 4500 years ago.
It looks like R1b-L21 arrived from Central Europe to expand very quickly on the British Isles and near the Atlantic coast.

[/FONT]
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L21/
 
I agree YGorcs. Some naivety in some statements. I suspect a hidden opposition among some Irish and British scientists to any central or eastern European origin...
The chronologic question of Celtic before Hallstatt has to be detached from the question of geographic origin. Earlier waves could have been launched roughly from the same region of future Halstatt cultures, or close enough.


Halstatt celts and La Tene celts are more than 400 years separated...........there is no evidence they are even the same people ..............400 years can bring a lot of ethnic changes

The Irish might have some La Tene and no halstatt or could also have neither
 
Halstatt celts and La Tene celts are more than 400 years separated...........there is no evidence they are even the same people ..............400 years can bring a lot of ethnic changes

The Irish might have some La Tene and no halstatt or could also have neither

It's possible they were not exactly the same ethny, spite I doubt they were completely foreigners one to another; the consensus is to say both were Celts, (at least western Hallstatt culture tribes), the change being more in material culture and way of lands holding and settlements; I have no real clue. It's possible that the Halstatt elites would have been absorbed by precedent pop's. Concerning Irish, their celtisation and its date is also matter of discussions...
I doubt Celtic languages has been imposed by the very last waves of peopling in western Europe; dialects changes, surely. As a whole, it seems Ireland is always stayed a little apart of big moves. Puzzling question...
 
La Tène, spite later, could have been the result of this absorbtion of "barbaric" Hallstatt elites by longer settled people from before, and NOT a new wave. The change is also due to new exchanges with the Mediterranean world.
 
La Tène, spite later, could have been the result of this absorbtion of "barbaric" Hallstatt elites by longer settled people from before, and NOT a new wave. The change is also due to new exchanges with the Mediterranean world.

The La Tène Gauls original homelands are supposed to be on the northern outskirts of the Hallstatt realm.
Hallstatt was peacefull, with some wealthy elites on strategic locations controlling trade routes.
The Gauls were restless warriors.
 
This is an interesting theory. Adriano Romualdi already pointed out certain similarities between the ancient Proto-Italic and Proto-Germanic peoples, which can only be explained with a theory such as the one presented here.
 
The La Tène Gauls original homelands are supposed to be on the northern outskirts of the Hallstatt realm.
Hallstatt was peacefull, with some wealthy elites on strategic locations controlling trade routes.
The Gauls were restless warriors.


Where did you see La tene Gauls original homelands are near Halsatt ( which is in modern East Austria ) ?

The celts owned all of Central and Southern Germany
The celtic "capital" was in Glauberg near modern Frankfurt Germany ...............no one have any idea the ethnic makeup of La Tene and Halstatt Celts ..............we only know that the halstatt mixed with Illyrians and the La Tene mixed with Gallic and Ligurian tribes

The Halstatt celts went into the balkans and failed in an attempt to take Greece and one group settled in Serbia and other groups went to modern Turkey

There is no record of where the La Tene went into modern France or beyond that I can find

The Glauberg is not isolated within its time and area, although it is the most northeasterly site of its type known at present. But several other important Celtic population centres or oppida are known from the Rhein-Main Region and Central Hesse. Two important fortifications, those at Dünsberg near Giessen and Heidetränk Oppidum (one of the largest urban settlements in Celtic Europe) near Altkönig in the Taunus mountains are visible from Glauberg. Nearby is also the Celtic salt industry at Bad Nauheim.
[17]


Cremations are more commonly associated with the Halstatt phase, inhumation with the La Tène one.



maybe you can take a look into this

https://www.academia.edu/20678662/S...gical_investigations_at_the_Glauberg_Germany_
 
I' not a specialist and have no time just now to go deeper in the question but it seems to me someones here are confusing the places which gave their name to cultures with the allover extension of these cultures: Hallstatt culture in West went far enough from Hallstatt region in Austria and very very often the first settlements considered as linked to La Tène culture (name from La Tène in Switzerland) were not too far from last Hallstatt culture setllements.
I 'll try to gather more 'info' when I find time (and find these info's!).
 
Where did you see La tene Gauls original homelands are near Halsatt ( which is in modern East Austria ) ?

The celts owned all of Central and Southern Germany
The celtic "capital" was in Glauberg near modern Frankfurt Germany ...............no one have any idea the ethnic makeup of La Tene and Halstatt Celts ..............we only know that the halstatt mixed with Illyrians and the La Tene mixed with Gallic and Ligurian tribes

The Halstatt celts went into the balkans and failed in an attempt to take Greece and one group settled in Serbia and other groups went to modern Turkey

There is no record of where the La Tene went into modern France or beyond that I can find

The Glauberg is not isolated within its time and area, although it is the most northeasterly site of its type known at present. But several other important Celtic population centres or oppida are known from the Rhein-Main Region and Central Hesse. Two important fortifications, those at Dünsberg near Giessen and Heidetränk Oppidum (one of the largest urban settlements in Celtic Europe) near Altkönig in the Taunus mountains are visible from Glauberg. Nearby is also the Celtic salt industry at Bad Nauheim.
[17]


Cremations are more commonly associated with the Halstatt phase, inhumation with the La Tène one.



maybe you can take a look into this

https://www.academia.edu/20678662/S...gical_investigations_at_the_Glauberg_Germany_

Hallstatt_LaTene.png


Overview of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures: The core Hallstatt territory (HaC, 800 BC) is shown in solid yellow, the eventual area of Hallstatt influence (by 500 BC, HaD) in light yellow. The core territory of La Tène culture (450 BC) is shown in solid green, the eventual area of La Tène influence (by 250 BC) in light green. The territories of some major Celtic tribes of the late La Tène period are labelled.

During late Hallstatt many prinsely seats like Glauberg existed.
The most prestigious prinsely seats were Heuneburg and Vix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuneburg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave
They were situated on strategic crossroads for trade and show social stratification, unlike the Hallstatt salt mines where the miners themselves also seem to have participated in the wealth created by the mines.
When the Gauls expanded those prinsely seats dissapeared, it seems that the social order dissapeared and was replaced by another one.

The Gauls also expanded in the Balkans.
Those who tried to take greece and settled in Serbia and mixed with Illyrians, were not Hallstatt Celts, they were Gauls.

Like Moesan says, it is sometimes sonfusing because the Celts were very diverse and the different groups are often not very well defined by those who speak about them.


 
Where did you see La tene Gauls original homelands are near Halsatt ( which is in modern East Austria ) ?

The celts owned all of Central and Southern Germany
The celtic "capital" was in Glauberg near modern Frankfurt Germany ...............no one have any idea the ethnic makeup of La Tene and Halstatt Celts ..............we only know that the halstatt mixed with Illyrians and the La Tene mixed with Gallic and Ligurian tribes

The Halstatt celts went into the balkans and failed in an attempt to take Greece and one group settled in Serbia and other groups went to modern Turkey

There is no record of where the La Tene went into modern France or beyond that I can find

The Glauberg is not isolated within its time and area, although it is the most northeasterly site of its type known at present. But several other important Celtic population centres or oppida are known from the Rhein-Main Region and Central Hesse. Two important fortifications, those at Dünsberg near Giessen and Heidetränk Oppidum (one of the largest urban settlements in Celtic Europe) near Altkönig in the Taunus mountains are visible from Glauberg. Nearby is also the Celtic salt industry at Bad Nauheim.
[17]


Cremations are more commonly associated with the Halstatt phase, inhumation with the La Tène one.



maybe you can take a look into this

https://www.academia.edu/20678662/S...gical_investigations_at_the_Glauberg_Germany_


Concerning Balkans and the Celtic expansion towards East, Bicicleur2 answered you; concerning Hallstatt and La Tène cultures extensions Bicicleur2 answered you again.
For La Tène in today France, Champagne province was the second hotspot of the culture after the Eiffel district of Germany, and it seems they were the centers of ancient "arrowheads" of previous expansions from the preceding Hallstatt culture area, surely military expansions based at first on demographic processes.
Hallstatt was not expanding but it was kind of a capture on the territory and its wealth and on the economic traffic, by people who were surely not without military strength; contrary to what you say, (for I know at least), Hallstatt was very hyerarchised, more than La Tène or differently, with more steep less gradual social differences than La Tène who was less despotic and more "military" ("expansion oblige?") at first; at first, and in its power centers more than in peripheries.
 
Overview of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures: The core Hallstatt territory (HaC, 800 BC) is shown in solid yellow, the eventual area of Hallstatt influence (by 500 BC, HaD) in light yellow. The core territory of La Tène culture (450 BC) is shown in solid green, the eventual area of La Tène influence (by 250 BC) in light green. The territories of some major Celtic tribes of the late La Tène period are labelled.

During late Hallstatt many prinsely seats like Glauberg existed.
The most prestigious prinsely seats were Heuneburg and Vix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuneburg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave
They were situated on strategic crossroads for trade and show social stratification, unlike the Hallstatt salt mines where the miners themselves also seem to have participated in the wealth created by the mines.
When the Gauls expanded those prinsely seats dissapeared, it seems that the social order dissapeared and was replaced by another one.

The Gauls also expanded in the Balkans.
Those who tried to take greece and settled in Serbia and mixed with Illyrians, were not Hallstatt Celts, they were Gauls.

Like Moesan says, it is sometimes sonfusing because the Celts were very diverse and the different groups are often not very well defined by those who speak about them.



I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.



Final eneolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 3248 BCE. Sardinia, Italy, MarcusNatCommun2020 (Blue Circle)

Early Chalcolithic
l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 2550 BCE. Barcelona, Spain, OlaladeNature2018 (Pink Circle)
l YTree: R1b-M12149, 2768 BCE. Croatia, MathiesonNature2018 (Pink star)

Late Chalcolithic (Red star)
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2350 BCE. Asturias, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-U152, 2127 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2417 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-L51, 2171 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-PF6658, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-P312, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
l YTree: R1b-P310, 2124 BCE. Ciudad Real, Spain, OlaladeScience2019

l YTree: R1b-Z195, 2387 BCE. Les Monges, France, SeguinOrlandoCurrBiol2021
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2220 BCE. Valros, France, BrunelPNAS2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2373 BCE. La Fare, France, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2248 BCE. Haute-Savoie, France, OlaladeNature2018

l YTree: R1b-P310, 2725 BCE. Auvernier, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2225 BCE. Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Switzerland, OlaladeNature2018
l YTree: R1b-M269, 2722 BCE. Burg?Chisee, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
l YTree: R1b-L151, 2682 BCE. Aesch, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
 

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I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.

Map updated with Central Europe data.

R1b_map3.jpg
 
Not sure if this paper is relevant.

Bell Beaker cultural package in the East European periphery of the phenomenon: a case of ritual features in north-eastern Poland

Dariusz Manasterski, Katarzyna Januszek, Adam Wawrusiewicz, and Aleksandra Klecha

Documenta Praehistorica XLVII (2020)


"In the presented case, itmost likely involved the arrival of a group (or groups) of BB people from the West, which brought ‘behaviour’ representing the BB cultural package. This is suggested by some of the artefacts characteristic for Western Europe, and in the case of the decorated slate plaquette/pendant, directly from the Iberian Peninsula, the only location where it has parallels."
 

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