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Celtic family tree

I frequently read that Brythonic, being an Insular Celtic language, had more in common with Goidelic. Although Brythonic had adopted the p-celtic fashion, how could it be so similar to Gaulish? Could Caesar have been referring to Belgic as they inhabited both sides of the Channel?

Broadly, it depends what scenario of the relationship between the various Celtic branches you prefer. There are traditionally two camps in the scholarship, namely the Continental Celtic versus Insular Celtic model and the Q-Celtic versus P-Celtic model.

Continental versus Insular Celtic argues for a closer relationship of Brythonic and Goidelic, based on the fact that they share that they have VSO word order and consonant mutations, which is by Indo-European standards quite exotic, while Celtiberian and Gaulish had an SVO word order, no sign of (regular) consonant mutations, and complex declension systems that were quite similar to that of ancient Greek or Sanskrit. The extreme variants of the Insular Celtic model argue that there's a common substrate in Insular Celtic, and an Afroasiatic language is often suggested for that (VSO is found, for example, in the Berber languages, Old Egyptian and the Semitic languages).

In the Q-Celtic versus P-Celtic model mainly concerns the treatment of the sound *kw from Proto-Indo-European. Both Celtiberian and Goidelic preserved *kw (well, Primitive Irish did, it became *k later in Old Irish, as well as in the modern Goidelic languages), while Gaulish and the Brythonic languages have shifted that to *p.

Which scenario is the more correct one? Of course, one sound change alone (much like the Centum/Satem change) isn't a pretty strong case, but in my opinion the Q/P model is the more "correct" one because Gaulish and Brythonic have more commonalities in their phonetic evolution. We don't know much about Goidelic and Brythonic from the same time that we know about Celtiberian and Gaulish (classical Antiquity), but many of the typical "Insular Celtic" features seem to be later innovations - Primitive Irish (known from the Ogham inscriptions) was essentially a "Continental Celtic" language.

Another aspect is that you have common British and Gaulish deities, as well as tribes (the Atrebates and the Parisi, in particular) that inhabited both sides of the Channel. Thus, we do know that the Britons and the Gauls were close, and it shouldn't be a surprise that their languages were very similar.

Conversely, however, the case for a "Q-Celtic" is much more dubious: People have suggested because Irish is Q-Celtic, just like Celtiberian, that a "Mil Espáine"-type scenario is correct and that the Goidels indeed arrived originally from Spain in Ireland. However, Primitive Irish is much more conservative than Celtiberian, and Celtiberian clearly is not the ancestor of Goidelic. In my opinion, if anything, a reverse Mil Espáine type of scenario is accurate there, and Celtic languages spread in the reverse direction (north to south, not the other way round) along the Atlantic seaboard.
 
Taranis I agree with your clear explanation (by example the differences occurred with time, when gaulish was died, the "all-isles" explanation being based upon a disparate data concerning timing)
- even if uneasy to prove, current scholars seem thinking that breton language survived better in West and South Brittany (not the denser setlled zones by Brittons) not only by geographic distance but rather because there were the less romanized people of western Aremorica, still sepaking gaulish - (celtic/not roman/ Aremorica spanned from today Brittany North the Liger/Loire until Somme River bay, across the coastal regions of today Normandy)
 
Just to clarify, are you saying that the Insular Celtic developments probably occurred after the Q/P split and after Continental Celtic had died out? Presumably Breton either followed the Insular Celtic developments or was the result of later migration?
 
Just to clarify, are you saying that the Insular Celtic developments probably occurred after the Q/P split and after Continental Celtic had died out? Presumably Breton either followed the Insular Celtic developments or was the result of later migration?

The Bretons were immigrants in Gaul during the Migration Period. The name "Brittany" (or "Breizh" in Breton) should be a giveaway there. ;-)

And yes, the scenario that the "insular celtic" features developed only after the Continental Celtic languages had died out (or were in the process of dying out) is a very likely one.

Taranis I agree with your clear explanation (by example the differences occurred with time, when gaulish was died, the "all-isles" explanation being based upon a disparate data concerning timing)
- even if uneasy to prove, current scholars seem thinking that breton language survived better in West and South Brittany (not the denser setlled zones by Brittons) not only by geographic distance but rather because there were the less romanized people of western Aremorica, still sepaking gaulish - (celtic/not roman/ Aremorica spanned from today Brittany North the Liger/Loire until Somme River bay, across the coastal regions of today Normandy)

Its possible that Gaulish survived in Aremorica until the Migration Period (we don't reliably know exactly when the language became extinct) and that their speakers were absorbed by incoming the Bretons.
 
in the ethnic-linguistic sense, yes! as all the Celts or strongly celticized people of the Atlantic Façade they have nevertheless a not neglictible amount of 'west-mediterranean' and 'cromagnoid' (more than 'brünnoid') remnants since Meso- and Neolithic, I think, that give them some "family links" with Basques -
 
We've been there, before, Sile:
- Celtiberian, Goidelic, Gallaecian were Q-Celtic.
- Gaulish, Brythonic, Galatian, Lepontic and Noric were all P-Celtic.



The Aquitanians spoke an earlier form of Basque, but the Roman province of Aquitania included a good deal of Celtic (Gaulish) lands. I've said before, Romans were horrible ethnographers and they drew arbitrary lines through the lands they conquered like European colonial powers in 19th century Africa. :wary2:

As for the Belgae, in my opinion they spoke Gaulish. Strabo (in his geography, book 4, chapter 1) has a somewhat different stance than Julius Caesar here, according to him the Belgae and the Celtae speak the same language (his wording is "ομογλωττους") with some variations in it ("μικρον παραλλαττοντας ταις γλωσσαις"). And I would agree with Strabo's view.

There have been scholars in the past, notably Maurits Gysseling ("there has always been a Flanders!" :laughing: ), who proposed the existence of a distinct "Belgic" language, but I don't see where he takes his evidence from. In my opinion, Gysselings construct is unnecessery, Belgic Gaul was predominantly Celtic, except for the area at the Rhine delta, which was probably mixed/bilingual (Celtic and Germanic).
You said that Romans drew arbitrary lines through lands they conquered. I think they have done such thing because of keeping the locals population into submission and controlled. Is much easier if the administrative province is ethnically various
 
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