Celts from Iberia

[ebAmerican]

There is considerable linguistic data that points to Venetic and Illyrian as possible Italic languages. North and West of these languages you have Rhatien and Etruscan. I am a supporter of the Celtic language originating somewhere along the Atlantic Facade, possibly Spain. I believe Barry Cunliffe and John Koch's Celtic from the West proposal. The La Tene culture was a hybrid Atlantic/Hallstatt culture. Hallstatt never spoke celtic, but an Italic, Venetic, Rhatien or Illyrian language similar to what is proposed for the nordwestblock language, but did influence what La Tene would become (orientalizing from Hellenic influence). Tartessian is the earliest attested Celtic language at 850bc according to John Koch. I believe in the areal proximity of Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic, the first originating on the Atlantic Facade and the second originating in South Central Europe from a PIE dialect and having close contact for a long time. I don't believe in a proto italo-celtic language.

 

[julia90]

well from now i belive north africans are celts.. people look at where tartesso is lokated!.. there is an only explanation, celts came from continental central europe, and at the early stage they migrated in what was tartesso, but their primaly celtic origin isn't at that latitude! °__°.. long time adaption to that latitude doesn't produce porcelain skin and blue eyes!... or otherwise celts were like sardineans who are pre-indoeuropean people that lived at around those latitudes and even more northern latitudes!!.. then scots and irish should look like sardineans .. wich is not the case

now tell me does someone with hugh laurie look could have evolved for a long time at that latitude? or more reasonably people like hugh laurie evolved long time at more northern latitudes, and then at an early stage migrated in tartesso? wich is the more reasonable? i say people like him evolved at much more northern latitues for long time and then they migrated in tartesso

their closer north africans neighbour, people who have long time adapted to around those latitudes, a bit more southern tunisians (obviously not the black immigrants)

or more reasonably the cypriot team whose inhabitants have lived for a quite long time at around the same latitude of gibraltar

 

[julia90]

I am a supporter of the Celtic language originating somewhere along the Atlantic Facade, possibly Spain.

the pre celtic langauges of all western europe spain (actually spain is one of the mostly pre-indo european genetic pool even if they have considerably indo-european genes via the celts) and possibly the british isles comprised were non-indo european... while celtic langauges are indo-european.. since all indo-european languages route is ?-ukraine steppe-central eastern europe-central europe, celts arrived from la tene, before arriving in spain or even in the british isles, and obviously in the british isles could exists some pockets of people less admixed with celts and germans (all indo-european people) who are the remain of non indoeuropean first inhabitants who could look more like sardineans thus they could appear darker (like robert22 said), but don't confuse them with celts wich are indo-europeans.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

@Julia90

Who is talking about North Africans? Do you know how difficult it was - and still is to some extent - to navigate the currents in the Straights of Gibraltar during Antiquity? There is little evidence of North African influence in SW Iberia in the Bronze Age. Do you not know of the overwhelming evidence that exists with respect to maritime trade and social exchange between Iberia, Armorica, Ireland, Wales and other British Isle lands? (see Cunliffe, 2005, 2010). Why are there many basic elements of Old Irish in Tartessian (see Yokum 2011)? THINK!

What is your problem? Are you racially insecure? You are going against what every renowned contemporary Celtic scholar has stressed for some time: that Celticity is primarily cultural and Celts were likely fairly diverse in appearance (just like Iberians and other Atlantic facade types). READ: Yocum (2011), Koch (2009, 2010, 2011), Kauffman (2011), Untermann (1987, 1996), Cunliffe (2005, 2010), Wodtko (2010) and many others. It's foolish to associate Celticity with certain phenotypes. Indeed, it is ludicrous.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

the pre celtic langauges of all western europe spain (actually spain is one of the mostly pre-indo european genetic pool even if they have considerably indo-european genes via the celts) and possibly the british isles comprised were non-indo european... while celtic langauges are indo-european.. since all indo-european languages route is ?-ukraine steppe-central eastern europe-central europe, celts arrived from la tene, before arriving in spain or even in the british isles, and obviously in the british isles could exists some pockets of people less admixed with celts and germans (all indo-european people) who are the remain of non indoeuropean first inhabitants who could look more like sardineans thus they could appear darker (like robert22 said), but don't confuse them with celts wich are indo-europeans.

A major component of the Iberian (Spain and Portugal) genetic substratum is Proto-Celtic and Celtic. Rant all you want, the facts are against you, big time. Good luck!

 

[oriental]

The Labu are characterized by a number of features when they are depicted in Egyptian reliefs, such as fair skin, red hair, and blue eyes. They also wore ornamental cloaks, had one lock of hair, and were tattooed on their arms and legs. Some of these characteristics the Labu also shared with the Meshwesh, but unlike the Meshwesh the Labu wore kilts instead of loincloths. But the Labu were by far more documented for their wars against the Egyptians than for their looks. We see one of these campaigns documented in the "Israel Stela" of the fifth year of Merneptah’s reign, in which Merey, the chief of the Labu, has led his people along with other tribes against the Egyptians, and Merey and his troops were defeated. It has been suggested that the Labu fought against the Egyptians during the reign of Merneptah because there was no food. This seems like a reasonable explanation since we know that during the politically troubled years in Egypt after the reign of Merneptah, both the Labu and the Meshwesh took the opportunity and settled in western Egypt as far as the west bank of the Nile. Then, during the reign of Ramesses III, the Labu attacked Egypt because the pharaoh refused to give back one of the Labu chief’s children, but the Labu were defeated, which is documented in the Papyrus Harris (*12).

Maybe the Labu Sea Peoples were R1b people who attacked Egypt. R1b people were In North Africa 17,000 years ago were pastoralists and North Africa was not a desert at that time.

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/sea.htm

 

[julia90]

A major component of the Iberian (Spain and Portugal) genetic substratum is Proto-Celtic and Celtic. Rant all you want, the facts are against you, big time. Good luck!

The substratum is pre-indo europeans of people like sardineans in the case of basque that have half sardinean component (otzi) and half celtic components.

the sardinean otzi component (or south west) is by no means celtic, while the other half of basque genetic is indeed celtic

 

[julia90]

It's foolish to associate Celticity with certain phenotypes. Indeed, it is ludicrous.

no, then it is as loodicruous to associate certain phenotypes, let's say to germans or to amerindians, or to north africans.. there is a commonality of look between celts, like i posted in the thread what celts look like.. in those photos there is an obvious commonality on looks, i posted also many spaniards that indeed have those look too, as well as many other europeans

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

no, then it is as loodicruous to associate certain phenotypes, let's say to germans or to amerindians, or to north africans.. there is a commonality of look between celts, like i posted in the thread what celts look like.. in those photos there is an obvious commonality on looks, i posted also many spaniards that indeed have those look too, as well as many other europeans

There is no specific Celtic phenotype. Tell a Breton, Cornishman, or Welshman he is not Celtic because he has darker features. There are many dark Atlantic types in Britain and all along the Atlantic facade. Give it up already.

Tell you what, I'll provide you with the phone numbers and / or e-mails of some well-known Celtic scholars. Go and discuss the topic with them if you wish. Celticity is primarily cultural, like it or not.

 

[Ziober]

Almost everyone had thought pale skin is an adaptation of northern latitude. But as environmentalist I am I must to say that in Bronze Age the iberian peninsula was fully covered by forest. With people hunting, gathering, etc under the shadow of the trees, just for thinking on it.

This is a video documentary which talks about ancient Iberian forests as a jungle.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAyHlX2CQig

 

[MOESAN]

and were ancient Iberians, ancient Celts, ancient Lapps, ancient Greeks or latins wandering Europe dressed by their only skin... even their 5000/6000 older ancestors was wearing dress - skin colour adaptative effect ceased having any natural selective effect well earlier than the dates of arriving of the most of all these people... Do keep it in mind please! the mesolothic people had already clothes!

 

[LeBrok]

and were ancient Iberians, ancient Celts, ancient Lapps, ancient Greeks or latins wandering Europe dressed by their only skin... even their 5000/6000 older ancestors was wearing dress - skin colour adaptative effect ceased having any natural selective effect well earlier than the dates of arriving of the most of all these people... Do keep it in mind please! the mesolothic people had already clothes!

Exactly, clothes allowed white people to settle North Africa and Arabian Peninsula. Just look how completely Bedouins are dressed up for full sun protection.

 

[Ziober]

I think when happend the last mutation from armenoid to blonde for example they were dressed too. It could happend the same from "I don't know which ancestors" to redheads. Dresses are complements,its aren't part of us.

You think something: If mutation is not possible by doing everything under the shadows of the forests for having dresses neither should be possible to have a mutation for a northern latitude having dresses as they had had. I think the dresses protect us, but not enough to avoid a mutation.

Merry christmas.

 

[MOESAN]

we (I and others here) never said that mutations occurred only under selection pressure - we said selection pressure lost its strenght long time ago and DOES NO MORE PRIVILEGIATE A CERTAIN RECENT MUTATION THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE SELDOM WHEN IT OCCURS!!! recent mutations in a numerous population needs some help to become prevalent ore ven only not too rare
happy new year the same!

 

[adamo]

The truth is most spaniards do not look dark complexioned, although some of them do. Most Iberians are R1b of the S-116 subclade, also known as P-312 I believe. 75% of Spanish men are R1b. Another 55-60% of Portuguese men are also R1b. Most Iberian people today's ancestors are in fact ancient celts

 

[Ziober]

I have read a compilation of articles talking about celts in Iberia in English. Its could make you understand the matter better than my explanations because my English is not good enough....

 

[Ziober]

You are becoming borderline ridiculous. It is exceedingly obvious you have a severe problem with Iberian Celticity. LMAO!! Read the research on Tartessian and the latest Celtic studies as regards Iberia. Also, carefully read what Taranis wrote.

Lots of europeans have a problem regarding iberian celticity Cambrius. They should be informed before to talk about. If an Spaniard talks about celticity of Iberia is usually ignored. Maybe reading Wisconsin's University articles they could believe ... http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/index.html