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Central and South Asian DNA Paper

Please get back to discussing the paper and South Asian genetics. This thread is wandering more and more off topic. Anyone seeking to understand or contribute to an understanding of the paper has to wade through pages of posts which belong elsewhere.
 
Boreas said:
If the early Scythians and Sarmatians earned that much high Baloch admixture later, yes they would be related with Eastern Europeans. Otherwise I mean if they had Baloch structure from the begining, Eastern Europeans would be related with them
Click to expand...
Actually, Baloch is much ancient than that, pre Neolithic in this area. The center of Baloch admixture must have been somewhere in Central Asia and had spread into Iranian HG, CHG and EHG way before they all started mixing together.

*About results of Turkics, why Uzbeks and Uygur have that much high NE-Euro result?
Click to expand...
The deeper they invaded the Steppe the more NE Euro they got from Steppe people like Scythians. Mixing with Steppe peeps.

*I don't think any European nation have that much Baloch structure, but I am curious about Ossetians. Do you have any samples?
Click to expand...

[TABLE="width: 1321"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S Indian[/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]NE Euro[/TD]
[TD]SE Asian[/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]NE Asian[/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]SW Asian[/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]E African[/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]W African[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]stalskoe, Dagestan[/TD]
[TD]xing[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]24%[/TD]
[TD]41%[/TD]
[TD]21%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]4%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]north-ossetian[/TD]
[TD]harappa[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]19%[/TD]
[TD]45%[/TD]
[TD]14%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]5%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]4%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]kumyk[/TD]
[TD]yunusbayev[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]21%[/TD]
[TD]47%[/TD]
[TD]16%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]4%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]chechen[/TD]
[TD]yunusbayev[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]22%[/TD]
[TD]51%[/TD]
[TD]20%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]adygei[/TD]
[TD]hgdp[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]18%[/TD]
[TD]57%[/TD]
[TD]16%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]abhkasian[/TD]
[TD]yunusbayev[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]18%[/TD]
[TD]69%[/TD]
[TD]8%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]georgian[/TD]
[TD]harappa[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]20%[/TD]
[TD]62%[/TD]
[TD]6%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]6%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]armenian[/TD]
[TD]harappa[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]18%[/TD]
[TD]46%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]10%[/TD]
[TD]15%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]azeri[/TD]
[TD]harappa[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]19%[/TD]
[TD]43%[/TD]
[TD]7%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]4%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]7%[/TD]
[TD]10%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


See, all Caucasus peoples have Caucasian to 40 to 70%. The deeper into Steppe, the less Caucasus admixture and more NE Euro. It is understandable from all the mixing with neighbours through millennia. Baloch is steady around 20%, because it is ancient well mixed admixture since paleolithic. There is nothing special about Ossetians. They look like they really belong in this Caucasian family.

Here are again genoms of Scatian and Sarmatian. They are quite different than the Caucasian family. They are extremely close to Bronze Age Steppe, Yamnaya included, with increasing Siberian admixture.

[TABLE="width: 692"]
[TR]
[TD]M828815[/TD]
[TD]Rise552[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]M217196[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]I0430, R1a Z93[/TD]
[TD]M608028[/TD]
[TD]RISE505[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]M348213[/TD]
[TD]i0247[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]M084152[/TD]
[TD]PR3_I0575[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ulan iV, Yamnaya[/TD]
[TD]4.5 kya[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Srubna[/TD]
[TD]3.5kya[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Andronovo[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]scythian[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]EarlySarmatian, Pokrovka, Russia[/TD]
[TD] 5th–2nd c. BCE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Run time[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.08[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Run time[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.02[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Run time[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13.24[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Run time[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.07[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Run time[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.84[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.54[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.67[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33.24[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19.86[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.23[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.99[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.58[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.35[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.68[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.72[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]56.02[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]55.13[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]56.39[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.27[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]50.53[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.83[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.93[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.39[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.31[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.46[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.91[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.05[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.85[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.94[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.75[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.22[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.67[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14.37[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.62[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.81[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.06[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.95[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.81[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Look how low Caucasian admixture is and how high NE Euro. There is nothing remotely like this in modern Caucasian nations.
 
Last edited:
Alan said:
That is some real nonsense here, especially considering the fact that this was all well discussed already.

There are surviving texts from Khotanese Scythian in West China. They were identified as East Iranic. It is historically well documented that Sogdhian is descend of Scythian and that Sarmatians are relatives of Scythians. Soghdian inscriptions are some of the best preserved in Central Asia and they have been identified as East Iranic. Ossetian being an East Iranic language that is descend of Alanic is not something made up by "Ossetian nationalists". Also Alans all the way up to Rostov turning up with yDNA G2a is also a well known fact, and until few years the yDNA G2a among Ossetians being used by Georgian nationalists to discredit Ossetian claims of Alan ancestry is also well known.

In short
1. Khotanese Scythian texts => East Iranic
2. Sogdhian historically documented descend of Scythians => East Iranic
3. Sarmatian, Ossetic and Jasz, close relatives of Scythians => East Iranic

So you have samples from all corners of Scythia

All you have to do is put 1 and 1 together. It is not that hard.

About the Massagetae. Them being identified with the Alans shouldn't be anything hard to understand considering that Alans came from the very same region East of the Caspian. Huns were a confederation of East Iranic, Mongol and Turkic tribes.
Click to expand...

I know how the term Scythian was used in Greek sources and especially in post-Classical sources it was used in a very vague way (Ι have said that people who were called Scythian in post-classical sources were speaking languages that belonged to at least 3 language families, probably more) and the term was used predominately for 'Western Scythians'.

Scythia was never a specific region. It is a term Greeks used (irrespective of its origins).

Khotenese texts prove an Eastern Iranian language was spoken in Khotan. It can't prove anything about Iron Age Ukraine or South Russia.

Now, concerning Sogdian, maybe it is documented that it descends from Scythian but I don't know where.

Concerning Ossetians, I never claimed they didn't descend from an ancient Iranian population or that they weren't Alans. (Others have done that for their own reasons. Abaev though had a fixation with Scythians.).

Now, I don't make any claims about the language 'Scythians' were speaking and I don't care much. What annoys me is how the Greek sources are misused by various groups or individuals (markozd, for example doesn't understand that Herodotus didn't make any maps)

I won't make another post on this.
 
@LeBrok

Thanks, it seems that no one will had Scythians ancestry alone. :laughing:
 
Alan said:
That is some real nonsense here, especially considering the fact that this was all well discussed already.

There are surviving texts from Khotanese Scythian in West China. They were identified as East Iranic. It is historically well documented that Sogdhian is descend of Scythian and that Sarmatians are relatives of Scythians. Soghdian inscriptions are some of the best preserved in Central Asia and they have been identified as East Iranic. Ossetian being an East Iranic language that is descend of Alanic is not something made up by "Ossetian nationalists". Also Alans all the way up to Rostov turning up with yDNA G2a is also a well known fact, and until few years the yDNA G2a among Ossetians being used by Georgian nationalists to discredit Ossetian claims of Alan ancestry is also well known.

In short
1. Khotanese Scythian texts => East Iranic
2. Sogdhian historically documented descend of Scythians => East Iranic
3. Sarmatian, Ossetic and Jasz, close relatives of Scythians => East Iranic

So you have samples from all corners of Scythia

All you have to do is put 1 and 1 together. It is not that hard.

About the Massagetae. Them being identified with the Alans shouldn't be anything hard to understand considering that Alans came from the very same region East of the Caspian. Huns were a confederation of East Iranic, Mongol and Turkic tribes.
Click to expand...

That was part of my previous comment's questions: if we can reasonably assert (of course we'll never have 100% certainty) that Sarmatians, the ancestors of Ossetes, Sogdians, Bactrians and Khotanese people were speaking Iranic languages, ranging from Ukraine to China and Uzbekistan, then WHAT non-Iranic or perhaps even non-IE Scythian language group was between those two groups of Iranic speakers, not leaving one little trace of itself not even in placenames and personal or tribal names? That looks possible, not most improbable to me.
 
Well, here we go back to the all R1a, R1b, PIE came from Kurdistan. Just with a single sample.
 
where is now the 2015 phrase "we are following the evidence about where the oldest R1b appears"?

ah, if it's Kurdistan it's not used, too swarty people there, uh?
 
berun said:
where is now the 2015 phrase "we are following the evidence about where the oldest R1b appears"?
ah, if it's Kurdistan it's not used, too swarty people there, uh?
Click to expand...
Exactly. Whole narratives and hundreds of comments were made on single samples and "outliers".... But not with this one. Wrong place.
 
berun said:
where is now the 2015 phrase "we are following the evidence about where the oldest R1b appears"?
ah, if it's Kurdistan it's not used, too swarty people there, uh?
Click to expand...
The oldest R1b is definitely not this one. And i just found this sample pretty circumstantial, the exact subclade, for the exact timeframe. This is actually pretty unique if you think about it, middle-east is not the less search part of the world for ancient dna, actually it's absolutely not and we never found any ancient R1b a part in a steppic migration context like the Kura-Araxe one, but we found multiple R1b in ancient europe from very diverse and ancient subclades and all you people where continually arguing about it and now that single sample appears and fit the perfect subclade and timeframe for the anatolian / armenian hypothesis and everybody is like. done. we win. So that put apart, what is funny is that back in 2015, the real deal was to prove that R1a and iranic language came from Kurdistan, i'm now very interested for the R1a-M417 of 3500BC from Kurdistan. :grin:
 
Well, because of the Hajji Fairoz sample, I now believe the Caucasus/Iran admixture in the Yamnaya culture was mediated by a migration of both men and women, it wasn't female-mediated as some were saying.

Whether they spoke PIE or adopted it from the substrate population, is an open question, until we find good samples from Hittites and other Anatolians.
 
bicicleur said:
he has different Y-DNA but is he an outlier, autosomaly?
Click to expand...

Autosomally he is Anatolian and Iranian farmer (although I'm sure days will be spent, once the raw data is available, trying to squeeze some EHG out of him), and from a period too young for "steppe" movements south, and actually from a date earlier than predicted for his subclade.

The calls seem to be correct. He wasn't carbon dated because he was right next to and in the same grave with two samples, also Iranian and Anatolian farmer, who were dated. Now, because of all the controversy on the net, they are going to carbon date him.

Let's see what it says, although it would be odd for him to come from a different era given the circumstances and especially that the grave is undisturbed.

The point for me is that I doubt that David Reich would go out on a limb about a putative movement of a group of "Iranian" farmers, not a bunch of women, north onto the steppe beginning in 5000 BC based on one sample, particularly given that we know they have a lot of samples from this area. Of course, maybe the samples carried another yDna, like G2a or J and they just disappeared due to drift.

(That "raiding" for huge numbers of women from the Caucasus like American Indians or Conan the Barbarian was always juvenile male nonsense, and I said so. The only problem was that no "probable" y dna was found. Well, Maciamo had always said some R1b was south of the Caucasus, and now maybe there is proof of that.)

We'll see. I have no horse in this race, and to tell the truth I'm beyond bored with this whole Indo-European "thing", but I always thought it was possible, and posted about it a lot. People on the net just never gave any credence to either older archaeological findings like those from Ivanov and Grigoriev or newer papers either. David Anthony, from their own "Anglo-sphere", was the Bible, and everything he said was right in every particular. Well, maybe not.
 
Last edited:
R1a from Kurdistan was argued by goga, and he is the unique to think so, ask to him.

Of course the Hajji Firuz dude is not the oldest R1b, but I was imitating the mantra provided in 2015 by those with steppitis: "Oldest R1b is found in steppe so we come from his unknown bro settled somewhere in the west steppe, now provide incense to goddess Gimbutas".

I was providing diverse red alarms as such logics had few if any sure supports. Now I bet for R1a as IE HG but I'm open for EEF and Iran_Neo.
 
I always said that R1b was "the" Indo-European clade and R1a was steadily "Indo-Europeanized" by them in a "cultural" sense. I haven't changed my mind about that, and if this dating holds up and there are other of these men moving onto the steppe, it would "seal the deal".
 
Some posters on the net seem to think the following quote from the paper calls into question the findings of Lazaridis et al. I don't think that's necessarily so.

""We show that there was a west-to-east cline of decreasing Anatolian agriculturalist-related admixture ranging from ~70% in Chalcolithic Anatolia to ~33% in eastern Iran, to ~3% in far eastern Turan (Fig.1; Supplementary Materials). The timing of the establishment of this cline is consistent with the dates of spread of wheat and barley agriculture from west to east (in the 7th to 6th millennia BCE), suggesting the possibility that individuals of Anatolian ancestry may have contributed to spreading agriculturalist economies not only westward to Europe, but also eastward to Iran."

This is not how we were told before, as the general idea seemed to be that agriculture arose pretty much independently in Anatolia and the Zagros area. Also, I'm not sure you actually can go as far as they do in drawing this conclusion. But if true it would basically depose the Fertile Crescent as place of origin of agriculture."


As we've discussed a lot on this thread, what seems to have been particular to the Zagros was animal domestication and the "farming" of pulses.

The quote from the paper speaks specifically about wheat and barley agriculture, and makes perfect sense. I do think that the movement of Anatolian genetic flow tracks with that and extends to the limits of BMAC at least.
 
In my personal view, what i found irritating is how the whole indo-european package change in a whole whetever the hypothesis. Steppe was the mainstream theory for the horse-raider R1b thing for a while, whatever it was exactly that scenario, if R1b now is fought coming from Kurdistan so both PIE and Horses also come from Kurdistan and et caetera. Sometimes i feel that for some people it's juste a prejudice if some ancient thing come from europe and not from the middle-east. Back to the topic, this R1b sample is definitely an outlier for the actual datas and a big one, but he is not very an answer to any questions. If we put all the archeologic dates together, there is huge flow. It would mean modern R1b-z2103 distribution that is primarly located in anatolia is not steppe R1b but transcaucasus native, but at the same time the archeological mainstream view of IE's start in Samara and Khvalynsk or Sredny Stog without Z2103, it would mean all R1b without any specific subclades would came at different times from south caucasus.
 
berun said:
R1a from Kurdistan was argued by goga, and he is the unique to think so, ask to him.
Of course the Hajji Firuz dude is not the oldest R1b, but I was imitating the mantra provided in 2015 by those with steppitis: "Oldest R1b is found in steppe so we come from his unknown bro settled somewhere in the west steppe, now provide incense to goddess Gimbutas".
I was providing diverse red alarms as such logics had few if any sure supports. Now I bet for R1a as IE HG but I'm open for EEF and Iran_Neo.
Click to expand...
Without citing anyone, i'm pretty sur Goga was not the only one who fought Iranic languages and so R1a originate in Kurdistan. People took Mascarenhas and Underhill papers from granted back in 2015 and not just Goga.
 
halfalp said:
In my personal view, what i found irritating is how the whole indo-european package change in a whole whetever the hypothesis. Steppe was the mainstream theory for the horse-raider R1b thing for a while, whatever it was exactly that scenario, if R1b now is fought coming from Kurdistan so both PIE and Horses also come from Kurdistan and et caetera. Sometimes i feel that for some people it's juste a prejudice if some ancient thing come from europe and not from the middle-east. Back to the topic, this R1b sample is definitely an outlier for the actual datas and a big one, but he is not very an answer to any questions. If we put all the archeologic dates together, there is huge flow. It would mean modern R1b-z2103 distribution that is primarly located in anatolia is not steppe R1b but transcaucasus native, but at the same time the archeological mainstream view of IE's start in Samara and Khvalynsk or Sredny Stog without Z2103, it would mean all R1b without any specific subclades would came at different times from south caucasus.
Click to expand...

No, it wouldn't.

I'm not saying this is necessarily what happened, but it is certainly more than possible that a more upstream clade of R1b moved south of the Caucasus and through successive inter-marriage became autosomally Iran Neo and Anatolian Neo and then moved back onto the steppe.

Surely we can see from just the samples we previously had that these groups traveled huge distances. Look at R1b V88, which got from Europe all the way to west central Africa and became completely SSA in the process before probably some of them moved elsewhere and changed autosomally once again.

People have to stop thinking that a ydna lineage correlates once and forever with a certain "ethnic" make-up. It doesn't.
 
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