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Central and South Asian DNA Paper

epoch said:
Maybe it's already done but will be due in the next update.
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What do you mean by next update? You mean they gonna publish a new paper saying " sorry for the previous paper, lots of wrong calls and everything "?
 
halfalp said:
What do you mean by next update? You mean they gonna publish a new paper saying " sorry for the previous paper, lots of wrong calls and everything "?
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It's very unlikely.

I personnally think that this quietness is suspicious. After the pre-print was put public, neither Narasimhan or Lazaridis have commented into the incoherences, wich would be the decency? Are they hoping for new samples coming corroborate this paper so they dont have to explain themselves?
 
There's been an embargo with the Bronze Age conference, we'll see when they release everything. I hate waiting though...
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
There's been an embargo with the Bronze Age conference, we'll see when they release everything. I hate waiting though...
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I just read on Eurogenes from Davidski that apparently already two C14 tests failed... We might never have a conclusion to this.
 
halfalp said:
I just read on Eurogenes from Davidski that apparently already two C14 tests failed... We might never have a conclusion to this.
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I don't believe that. The early date is very surprising though, I could understand it being 2000 years later though.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I don't believe that. The early date is very surprising though, I could understand it being 2000 years later though.
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Isn't crazy that we can have 30'000 years old individuals or a 45'000 years old femur found in a river and get C14, y-dna, mtdna. While more recent samples from proper burials cannot have enough material to get a C14 test... Sidelkino is the oldest dated EHG individuals, he is a man, he have enough material to have both y-dna and mtdna, but they only tested for mtdna... And it's just an exemple from a lot of others, most obvious ones, Romans or Greeks, Egyptians... They apparently can test properly a lot of HG's from around the world that doesn't really matter for history, but the important ones. Nada.
 
I've actually seen here 'n' there on the internet that apparently Hajji Firuz was re-dated to the late bronze age. Multiple individualities have let the hint out, but it's not sure until the definitive paper is out. Also very weird that after 2 attempt of dating failed, the 3rd worked?


Edit: said early instead of late bronze age.
 
halfalp said:
I've actually seen here 'n' there on the internet that apparently Hajji Firuz was re-dated to the late bronze age. Multiple individualities have let the hint out, but it's not sure until the definitive paper is out. Also very weird that after 2 attempt of dating failed, the 3rd worked?


Edit: said early instead of late bronze age.
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Yes looks like it won't be an old enough sample although there is Hajji_Firuz_BA I4243 female with probably around 50% steppe ancestry from 2400-2200 BC. Is there any archaeological sign of an invasion by steppe people to Northern Iran? This female can be a part of an elite group (conqueror) or a daughter of mercenary or slave etc.
 
Cpluskx said:
Yes looks like it won't be an old enough sample although there is Hajji_Firuz_BA I4243 female with probably around 50% steppe ancestry from 2400-2200 BC. Is there any archaeological sign of an invasion by steppe people to Northern Iran? This female can be a part of an elite group (conqueror) or a daughter of mercenary or slave etc.
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There is the fact that the Late Kura-Araxes samples was your lineage V1636 found 1000 years earlier in the Pontic Steppe, while Early Kura-Araxes had G2b, a very Iran_Neolithic lineage and multiple Steppe ancestry and R1b-Z2103 in Hajji Firuz Late Bronze Age, wich coincides with the Late Kura-Araxes one. Both lineage found earlier in the Pontic Steppe. I also think Eurogenes is working on showing that Armenia_MLBA was influenced by Steppe.

We never gonna found any Transcaucasia_Yamnaya if this is what you are thinking about. They probably expand from North and became the elite of already established connections. And they are more likely to be representing very old populations as Anatolians or Gutians shows in early texts, than people like Armenians.
 
halfalp said:
There is the fact that the Late Kura-Araxes samples was your lineage V1636 found 1000 years earlier in the Pontic Steppe, while Early Kura-Araxes had G2b, a very Iran_Neolithic lineage and multiple Steppe ancestry and R1b-Z2103 in Hajji Firuz Late Bronze Age, wich coincides with the Late Kura-Araxes one. Both lineage found earlier in the Pontic Steppe. I also think Eurogenes is working on showing that Armenia_MLBA was influenced by Steppe.

We never gonna found any Transcaucasia_Yamnaya if this is what you are thinking about. They probably expand from North and became the elite of already established connections. And they are more likely to be representing very old populations as Anatolians or Gutians shows in early texts, than people like Armenians.
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I mean you can't be elite from nowhere, there needs to be some archaeological signs, cultural connections to the Pontic-Caspian if you are part of an elite expansion. (like Sintashta -> Aryan Invasion of India ) East Anatolia-around was a developed place with state-like structures.
 
Cpluskx said:
I mean you can't be elite from nowhere, there needs to be some archaeological signs, cultural connections to the Pontic-Caspian if you are part of an elite expansion. (like Sintashta -> Aryan Invasion of India ) East Anatolia-around was a developed place with state-like structures.
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Not necessary, because your exemple of Sintashta is related with the local Steppe Cultures, wich weren't local in South of the Caucasus. When Steppe people happened in the Middle-East they encounter already well established cultures, trade roads, economic links. They just had to rip off the local elite and that's it. About the archeological sign, i guess Horses is the strongest sign of Eurasian Steppe Migrations. It's way easier to conquer already established kingdoms than just empty lands. When Hyksos came into Egypt, they didn't came with a particular archeological link, they just had package not found in Egypt like Horses and Chariots, but it didn't change much for the local peoples.
 
halfalp said:
Not necessary, because your exemple of Sintashta is related with the local Steppe Cultures, wich weren't local in South of the Caucasus. When Steppe people happened in the Middle-East they encounter already well established cultures, trade roads, economic links. They just had to rip off the local elite and that's it. About the archeological sign, i guess Horses is the strongest sign of Eurasian Steppe Migrations. It's way easier to conquer already established kingdoms than just empty lands. When Hyksos came into Egypt, they didn't came with a particular archeological link, they just had package not found in Egypt like Horses and Chariots, but it didn't change much for the local peoples.
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Any reason why V1636 is extremely rare today if it brought Anatolian languages? There were multiple different Anatolian languages distributed in a large area. Y-DNA/language expansion seems correlated.
 
Surely it makes most sense for these Z2103s (as well as the typical West Asian lineages ofc) to be Kura-Araxes right, I mean what else can it be. They're not too late either. Some of them are before 2000 BC right? Even so the Steppe in Hajji Firuz before 2000 BC is enough. That date is also consistent with a migration from Catacomb though, so I'm not sure what it would represent.
 
Cpluskx said:
Any reason why V1636 is extremely rare today if it brought Anatolian languages? There were multiple different Anatolian languages distributed in a large area. Y-DNA/language expansion seems correlated.
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Whatever brought Anatolian, imo at least, won't be as simple as essentially one single haplogroup like tends to be the case in Europe, so I doubt you can just say V1636 brought Anatolian. That said, I do think it spread with K-A.
 
The history of V1636 is clearly not well known at this point. Inb4 we have multiple case or revised case of it in a prehistoric context. It was in Progress, in Khvalynsk and in Late Kura-Araxes.

But the fact is, that we take R1b-Z2103 or R1b-V1636, and Late KA, or Hajji Firuz, or even Armi hypothesis, or Gutians / Anatolians, all from approximately the same time. It makes a lot of correlation with Steppe and Late Bronze Age South Caucasus. Did anybody compared the Armi Anatolian Names with the Gutian ones?

I also think and said it multiple times that Yamnaya is maybe not the exact proxy for Anatolians or even Tocharians, but maybe Catacombs and Poltavka respectively, are.
 
halfalp said:
The history of V1636 is clearly not well known at this point. Inb4 we have multiple case or revised case of it in a prehistoric context. It was in Progress, in Khvalynsk and in Late Kura-Araxes.
But the fact is, that we take R1b-Z2103 or R1b-V1636, and Late KA, or Hajji Firuz, or even Armi hypothesis, or Gutians / Anatolians, all from approximately the same time. It makes a lot of correlation with Steppe and Late Bronze Age South Caucasus. Did anybody compared the Armi Anatolian Names with the Gutian ones?
I also think and said it multiple times that Yamnaya is maybe not the exact proxy for Anatolians or even Tocharians, but maybe Catacombs and Poltavka respectively, are.
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Catacomb is younger than Yamnaya so it can't be the origin of Anatolian languages if European IE's came with Yamnaya descendants.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
Whatever brought Anatolian, imo at least, won't be as simple as essentially one single haplogroup like tends to be the case in Europe, so I doubt you can just say V1636 brought Anatolian. That said, I do think it spread with K-A.
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What Y-dna can it be? Except R1a and R1b maybe J2?
 
Cpluskx said:
Catacomb is younger than Yamnaya so it can't be the origin of Anatolian languages if European IE's came with Yamnaya descendants.
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Well that's not important. There is 2000 years between Yamnaya / Catacomb and the first attested European IE scripts. The language could have evolved a lot in continental europe.
 
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