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Anybody have an idea of whether this group was IE or not? I'd imagine not seeing as they appear to be ancestral to the Liburnians but I'm not exactly sure either.
I dont know how you can possibly substantiate that from a map of the extent of the culture. They seem a good candidate for whoever the Ancient Greeks called Pelasgians if anything.
I don't see what authorizes us to think Pelasgians were Etruscans ancestors. The origin of Etruscans could be everyhere among one of the Neolithic pop's descendants, in Central-South-Eastern Europe. Pelasgians is an uncertain term used by Greeks to qualify uncertain supposed preceding pop.
Liburnians spoke seemingly Italic language, close enough to southern Venetic. The question is: are the Cetina culture people exactly the same as Liburnians? They could have been Illyrians pushed later southwards by Liburnians, It needs more archeologic knowledge of mine, but there is a big chronological gap between Cetina and Liburnians.
The supposed Etruscan origin of Liburnians posited by some Ancients, is without any proof, but it isn't impossible that a Etruscan(like) substratum would have existed there until early BA. I think that a long enough Etruscan/Italic contact (BA to IA) could have perdured, where some contacts pop's very close one to another had finally opted for Italic or Etruscan dialects spite being become genetically close enough ne to another.
your etruscan scenario with liburnians only fits if the etruscans came via asia-minor............to the adriatic sea ....up the coast to land near Adria in northern italy ...............I have seen that paper before ...a few years ago ...................do not believe it ................to me the etruscan have always where they are and if they came from anywhere , it was from the west and not the eastI don't see what authorizes us to think Pelasgians were Etruscans ancestors. The origin of Etruscans could be everyhere among one of the Neolithic pop's descendants, in Central-South-Eastern Europe. Pelasgians is an uncertain term used by Greeks to qualify uncertain supposed preceding pop.
Liburnians spoke seemingly Italic language, close enough to southern Venetic. The question is: are the Cetina culture people exactly the same as Liburnians? They could have been Illyrians pushed later southwards by Liburnians, It needs more archeologic knowledge of mine, but there is a big chronological gap between Cetina and Liburnians.
The supposed Etruscan origin of Liburnians posited by some Ancients, is without any proof, but it isn't impossible that a Etruscan(like) substratum would have existed there until early BA. I think that a long enough Etruscan/Italic contact (BA to IA) could have perdured, where some contacts pop's very close one to another had finally opted for Italic or Etruscan dialects spite being become genetically close enough ne to another.
your etruscan scenario with liburnians only fits if the etruscans came via asia-minor............to the adriatic sea ....up the coast to land near Adria in northern italy ...............I have seen that paper before ...a few years ago ...................do not believe it ................to me the etruscan have always where they are and if they came from anywhere , it was from the west and not the east
Maybe I wasn't clear. As some Ancients had spoken of Etruscan origin for Liburnians, and as Liburnians were surely Italic speaking, I developped my thoughts about the possible links between Italics and Etruscans, not in origin but for contacts. To say Etruscans were maybe not so far geographically speaking (so not at all in East or South-East Europe!). I never thought Etruscans came by sea to Liburnia from Asia or elsewhere in East!
Liburnian does not seem to be related to Venetic. I think the coincidence between the Liburnes, Livorno (from Latin Liburnus), and the settlement of Liburnum in Liguria is striking
It seems a lot of linguists think Venetic and Liburnians could be local evolutions on a proto-Italic stage of language,with more proximity to (proto-)Celtic or said otherwise, less distancing from it. It seems it was the case too with the non-Etruscanlike dialects of Rhaetia and the North-West block dialects of Belgia too. I read this in B. SERGENT in a book about Indo-Europeans.
Wikipedia is not far:
The hypothetical language or languages spoken by the Iron Age Nordwestblock population are a matter of speculation, as there are no written records of such languages as is the case with the Germanic language, but can be inferred based on analysis of substrate features in the primarily West Germanic languages that later came to be spoken in the region (for example, areal loanwords of unknown origin, and the presence of certain geminate consonants that cannot be explained by inheritance from Proto-Indo-European), or by analysis of place-names (toponymy and hydronymy).[4][5] Broadly, this substrate area is sometimes called the North-West European substratum.[6] Kuhn speculated on linguistic affinity of this substratum to the Venetic language, while other hypotheses connect the Northwestblock with the Raetic ("Tyrsenian") or generic Indo-European languages of the centum type (Illyrian, "Old European"). Gysseling suspected an intermediate Belgian language between Germanic and Celtic, that might have been affiliated to Italic.
Concerning the supposed links between Liburnians and Illyrians, it depends completely on what we suppose is the genuine Illyrian: the north Illyricum dialects (Centumlike) or the south Illyricum ones, closer to Albanians (recent) and Messapian, and supposed Dardanian, themselves not too far from Thracian (ancient) for some traits?
It seems a lot of linguists think Venetic and Liburnians could be local evolutions on a proto-Italic stage of language,with more proximity to (proto-)Celtic or said otherwise, less distancing from it. It seems it was the case too with the non-Etruscanlike dialects of Rhaetia and the North-West block dialects of Belgia too. I read this in B. SERGENT in a book about Indo-Europeans.
Wikipedia is not far:
The hypothetical language or languages spoken by the Iron Age Nordwestblock population are a matter of speculation, as there are no written records of such languages as is the case with the Germanic language, but can be inferred based on analysis of substrate features in the primarily West Germanic languages that later came to be spoken in the region (for example, areal loanwords of unknown origin, and the presence of certain geminate consonants that cannot be explained by inheritance from Proto-Indo-European), or by analysis of place-names (toponymy and hydronymy).[4][5] Broadly, this substrate area is sometimes called the North-West European substratum.[6] Kuhn speculated on linguistic affinity of this substratum to the Venetic language, while other hypotheses connect the Northwestblock with the Raetic ("Tyrsenian") or generic Indo-European languages of the centum type (Illyrian, "Old European"). Gysseling suspected an intermediate Belgian language between Germanic and Celtic, that might have been affiliated to Italic.
Concerning the supposed links between Liburnians and Illyrians, it depends completely on what we suppose is the genuine Illyrian: the north Illyricum dialects (Centumlike) or the south Illyricum ones, closer to Albanians (recent) and Messapian, and supposed Dardanian, themselves not too far from Thracian (ancient) for some traits?
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