Chekunova 2014: N1c and R1a samples of Proto-East-Balts (?)

[EAB]

I am not saying the Chinese can't see the hair colour, it just doesn't mean something to them. They'd never been to Turkey or Albania so they don't know how these people look. Sweden is a very contrary country, so you shouldn't be surprised. In fact, Turkish, Albanians and others are so common in Sweden that they are 10% of the country, no one tells this to a Chinese person they just think it is a local. The culture in Sweden is that the Swedes do their best to tan, and in particular, the women put on fake tan, whilst the immigrants dye their hair blonde. When you are confronted with a light skinned Iraqi with dyed blonde hair and green eyes in a country which you haven't visited before, let alone been introduced to the locals, they look pretty similar. When you add the fact many Swedish men grow beards like Jihadis, you don't know from the first glance who is who.

I do accept your point that asians look more similar than different, especially considering Icelandic people are very closely related and still have different hair and eye colours. It might be possible there was a lot more variety in Asian haplogroups in the past, just as there probably was in other haplogroups, that bottlenecked. I stand by my thoughts Asians in general do have a much wider range of looks than we in the west often think they have, like blonde Mongolians, people without heavy eye lids and different colour hair.

 

[EAB]

The people in these picture are an illustration of what I mean, you can't tell their ethnic group just by looking. http://blog.radissonblu.com/scandinavian-style-and-shopping-in-stockholm/

 

[Ukko]

The members of this forum who are knowledgeable about genetics, have emphasized that Mtdna is determinant in ones phenotype. If you check the map of N1c published by Maciamo at genetics section it is clear that N1c in Europe its an extension of Mongolic people in Europe. So back in time the should have looked like an Eskimo of Alaska looks today. The N1c populations of Europe are distinguishable from other European populations. If you go to Finland, Estonia or some Hungarians, and many Russians you can see that. Google the picture of Russian ex president Yelcin and you will see that his physical appearance is not quite European. His haplotype could very well be N1c.

You wish, what they did have common with mongols is that they where highly mobile and liked to invade other peoples.

 

[DuPidh]

You wish, what they did have common with mongols is that they where highly mobile and liked to invade other peoples.

I have seen some finish people in the Usa. Some of them show east Asian features. There are others who look Slavic.
What do I wish? N1c people in Europe are not conquerors. They are small group of people who lived in harsh climatic conditions. They did not posses any technology and their life stile was primitive. As time went by They intermarried with local Europeans and produced what is today called Finish or Sami. N1c people of Europe are a branch of Mongolic type.

 

[Ukko]

I have seen some finish people in the Usa. Some of them show east Asian features. There are others who look Slavic.
What do I wish? N1c people in Europe are not conquerors. They are small group of people who lived in harsh climatic conditions. They did not posses any technology and their life stile was primitive. As time went by They intermarried with local Europeans and produced what is today called Finish or Sami. N1c people of Europe are a branch of Mongolic type.

Where there Mongoloids living in the Balkans 20.000 years ago?

How did these primitive people spread in to areas already populated by Indo-Europeans during the Bronze Age?

How did these primitive people move rapidly in to Europe and Asia from the Volga-Kama region during the Bronze Age?

 

[arvistro]

Actually Pskov long barrows VIII AD could have been (East?) Baltic culture similar to Lettigalians. Discussions are not settled.
If N is Baltic type, it would add weight to pro-Baltic arguments. Also for Neroma - Latigola link.
But that depends on type of N.

 

[Ukko]

Actually Pskov long barrows VIII AD could have been (East?) Baltic culture similar to Lettigalians. Discussions are not settled.
If N is Baltic type, it would add weight to pro-Baltic arguments. Also for Neroma - Latigola link.
But that depends on type of N.

They could even be the Karelian-East Finnish type, Pskov is in the middle of Baltic Finnic homeland, the Baltic types are clearly a branch of Baltic Finns.

 

[arvistro]

Speaking of N. It is quite clear to me that Balts have M2782 mutation under L1025 one. As per tree you provided.
But - question - do you know if N have also clear lines for Uralic branches?
Say - Baltic Finns specific lines, Erzya, Moksha lines, Hanti lines, etc...

Or they are all cocktail?

 

[Ukko]

Speaking of N. It is quite clear to me that Balts have M2782 mutation under L1025 one. As per tree you provided.
But - question - do you know if N have also clear lines for Uralic branches?
Say - Baltic Finns specific lines, Erzya, Moksha lines, Hanti lines, etc...

Or they are all cocktail?

L1026 seems to fit nicely with Uralic Urheimat in the Volga-Kama around 2000 BC.

From there it spread in to the Baltic and Siberia, there are clear signs of correlation in the Uralic groups for this geographic spread but more results are needed.

Volga-Finns seem to have got some L1022 and Z1941 also but they look more like connected to the Eastern trade routes and decending from the Baltic Finnish lines.

VL 29 looks like the only possible carrier for Baltic Finnic in to Estonia, Livonia and SW Finland, its branches and expands around 500 BC from around Pskov-Lake Ilmen- St.Petersburg region.

 

[arvistro]

What is called in that tree Karelian and Savonian branches do not come from VL29. Are those prominent in some other (non-Baltic Finnic) Uralic populations?

 

[Ukko]

What is called in that tree Karelian and Savonian branches do not come from VL29. Are those prominent in some other (non-Baltic Finnic) Uralic populations?

It is clearly a Finnic-Uralic branch but cant be the one that spread Baltic Finnic in to Estonia, Livonia and SW Finland.

It is often connected to ancient Karelians, Veps and Bjarmians and this is supported by it its modern spread in Karelians, Savonians, Veps etc.

IMO it is the branch that spread Sami language in Fennoscandia, handling the trade there and in the White Sea trade routes.
Some Finns dont agree but I think they shifted language to Baltic Finnic during the Iron Age and later as Baltic Finnish expansion to those areas began.

 

[arvistro]

Do you have any estimates re proportion of L1022 and L550 vs total N for Estonians and Finns and other Finnic populations (including North Rus and Sweden)?

 

[Ukko]

Do you have any estimates re proportion of L1022 and L550 vs total N for Estonians and Finns and other Finnic populations (including North Rus and Sweden)?

I have my own guess estimates based on the families carrying particular haplogroups in genealogy projects and released data by researchers.

L1022 and L550 seem to be concentrated in Western Finland and could make 50% or more of the N there.

The Estonian samples that researchers are sitting on would help solve the mystery faster.

The oldest L1022 and L550 continue to be found in SW Finland and NW Estonia, I would place the origin of both around the Finnish Gulf.

That matches logically with the later spread in Sweden, Gotland and Livonia.

 

[arvistro]

Many thanks for input you already provided, but I will go on asking questions
For me as Baltic guy interesting question is also what differentiates L550 vs L1022?
From tree it looks like L550 is Fenno-Scandian and L1022 a Finnish affair, but when looking deeper they both actually seem to walk hand in hand. So, simple thing like - 550 is coastal, 1022 insular does not work. They are both coastal.

Is there at least something else to differ them - apart from Balts only having the 550? Are they evenly mixed in Estonian, Finnish and surrounding folk?
Like - do Finns have more L1022 or L550? What would be proportions 2:1, 5:1, 1:1?

 

[Ukko]

Many thanks for input you already provided, but I will go on asking questions
For me as Baltic guy interesting question is also what differentiates L550 vs L1022?
From tree it looks like L550 is Fenno-Scandian and L1022 a Finnish affair, but when looking deeper they both actually seem to walk hand in hand. So, simple thing like - 550 is coastal, 1022 insular does not work. They are both coastal.

Is there at least something else to differ them - apart from Balts only having the 550? Are they evenly mixed in Estonian, Finnish and surrounding folk?
Like - do Finns have more L1022 or L550? What would be proportions 2:1, 5:1, 1:1?

Only researchers have that info, L1022 is more common in West Finland than L550, in Estonia it could be just the opposite but both have them.