• Don't want to see ads? Install an adblocker like uBlock Origin or use a Europe-based privacy-friendly browser like Vivaldi or Mullvad.

Religion Christianity: Conceptions and misconceptions

Mars Man said:
ps. I broke the code after a little more thought: In My Honest Opinion.
Konnichiwa Onii-san! :wave: I thought it meant that, but I am reliably informed it means In My Humble Opinion. If you consider yourself an authority on the subject, you can say INCO (In My Considered Opinion) :cool:
Pararousia said:
So much talk about truth and honesty here, yet why is this thread titled "conceptions and misconceptions" or the other one "Biblical Texts: Explication and Discussion" when both threads should be entitled "Bible bashing" or "what atheists want you to believe"?
I feel so sorry that this is the impression you have. :( I don't think it is anyone's intention to 'Bible bash', and I'm not sure everyone here is an atheist. Although this may seem to contradict my previous posts, I'm not an atheist - I just have a vastly different concept of 'god' than you do. Maybe I'll say more on that sometime. :bluush:
Pararousia said:
You see, no amount of explanation or proof/evidence will change your minds any more than your explanations will change mine.
Proof and evidence is exactly the thing that will change my mind! I just don't accept the written word, or a revelation that someone else has had as evidence. I accept what I can detect with my senses. :okashii:
Pararousia said:
You don't believe Jesus rose from the dead even though there were eyewitnesses to His death or resurrected life. You would say immediately, "oh they got it wrong" or "they were mistaken". These are men and women who were martyred because they knew a risen Lord. They risked their lives, their families, their cultural ties, all--not for a lie--but for the Truth!
I don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead for two reasons:
1) Because it is only attested to in one place - the Bible - by people who already believed that Jesus was the Messiah. When someone discovers references in other texts from the same era, written by different people, then I will reconsider.
2) Because it isn't scientifically possible for someone to be dead for 3 days and then come back to life - brain death occurs after a very few minutes, followed by rapid necrosis of brain cells - i.e. brain damage, precluding any possibility of resuscitation.

I think it is likely his followers (and perhaps even Jesus himself) had good reason to believe he had risen from the dead. The most likely explanation, IMHO, was that Jesus was not dead when he was taken from the cross, but was so weak he appeared to be dead, but later recovered. Even today there is a sense of awe when we hear of someone being 'brought back from the dead' by resuscitation, so how much greater must this have been in ancient times.

Please don't think that I have this skeptical attitude only towards the Bible. I feel that same way about much of history. Also, please understand that we intend no disrespect when we question what the Bible says, or what Christians believe - I for one question everything! :gomen:
 
konbanwa boku no kawaii imoto chan,

Thank you very much for the correct understanding. Now I've got it and also the other onel I have noticed from time to time others that I just can't get--but maybe in time, or I can ask you. Thanks :-)

Now you see there, Tsuyoiko, you just got another thing out on the table that is right in line with my thinking. I think I mentioned somewhere up above, that I think there could have been some sort of 'creative' act, or whatever, but not like what has been written by mankind in the distant past because they just didn't know much, and this Torah explanation is simply lacking--although it could be seen as having a correct general outline. And being agnostic, I would say that there very well could some 'mind' or what have you, out there, but no one knows what that is--and the best way to find out anything about it, is through looking at nature. That's where scientific method comes in.

Now, in the dictionary I always use, there's no explanation of this 'bashing' idea. Depending on how one may define that, I could be 'Bible bashing' or whatnot, yet I usually took that terminology to refer to ungrounded, negative remarks about something, in excess of what was realistic. What do you think that terminology means? I would say, although, that being factual with some matter, whether it was acceptable to all or not, would not amount to 'bashing'--unless, then again, my understanding of common usage is off. You have to recall, I have been here for a long time, and how some things are used beyond newspapers, magazines, and TV news, slips me by from time to time. Thanks !! See you !! :wave:
 
In the UK we more often use the term 'Bible-bashing' to mean the opposite to what Pararousia intended: "trying in a forceful or enthusiastic way to persuade other people to believe in the Christian religion and the Bible" (definition from freesearch.co.uk).

In this context Onii-san, I think you are quite right in your definition: "ungrounded, negative remarks about something, in excess of what was realistic". I am really dismayed if this is what Pararousia thinks though, as I don't think that is a fair assessment of what we are trying or do, or of the tone we have taken.
 
When I volunteered to help defend Christianity, I didn't realize that it would be such an objective, and levelheaded discussion of Christianity. These are not the 'bashings' that I encountered on a daily basis. In fact, I've only come across one what might be called 'bashing' in this forum. This debate has no overtones of 'bashing', and since it has all been very polite, and much more scholarly than I am, I haven't been able to contribute as I thought I would.

Beliefs can be a bit sticky, as one will get a little upset when something one believes in is called into question. No one likes that, and I know this from all the time I considered myself Christian, and defended Christianity from the constant questioning, most of them not polite, nor levelheaded, but fortunately for me at that time, not terribly scholarly.
 
I have read through this thread since it's inception to garner what peoples opinions are and I feel that I must insert my most unorthodox opinion to this fine thread whether I get slammed to the mat or not.

Being raised a Roman Catholic and attending Catholic schools in my most vulnerable years, it was drilled into me that the Bible is the word of God and is not to be questioned. As a child I was told that to eat meat on a Friday was a MORTAL SIN and would land one in hell. The same if the holy communion wafer touched your teeth. It was strictly forbidden as this was the body of Christ and was tantamount to eating Christ! Failure to confess ones sins every week would also land you in hell if you died and didn't confess and receive the holy sacrament of Extreme Unction or last rites. All this led me, a young child, to live in terrible fear of spending eternity in HELL, for any breach of the 10 commandments along with many other things, a few of which I mentioned above.

Then a funny thing happened in the 60's during the Eccumenical Council of Pope John XXIII. Everything suddenly changed. It was ok to eat meat on Fridays, one could chew on the Holy Communion, and the mass was changed from latin to English. Upon questioning my teacher, who was a nun, on what will happen to the people who had eaten meat on Friday and died and went to hell for all eternity. Will they be allowed to now go to heaven? I was told that yes they would. I then questioned her on why did they have to suffer in hell if now it was ok? I was told that God acts in mysterious ways and that the Pope does what God tells him to. I had further questions, like if God was an all loving God like we were led to believe, why would he break his own commandment and kill humans, his own creation, with the flood? But I was soon reprimanded and told not to ask anymore questions. My questions seemed to really make the nuns and priests angry.

This is when I think I first started questioning religion and the bible. As I got older I discovered that the Bible was changed and edited so many different times that no one knows how many times it has been edited. I questioned why was it edited? I discovered that the belief in reincarnation was taken out of the bible in the middle ages. I question why we were using the King James version of the bible. Why his version? I want to see what King James took out and what is on the cutting room floor of his and all the other edits. Why did they take things out and insert others? If the Bible is the true word of God and Christ then there should be no need to edit at all! Who gives man the right to delete words of God and for what reason? What are they hiding?

After 50 years on this planet and numerous books read and alot of research into this matter I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is NOT in the least the word of God as those in Rome would have us believe. It is simply a book, based on, not Jewish or Hebrew texts, but texts far older than those.

In my opinion, the OT, as we know it today, after its numerous edits, is based on the ancient Summerian tablets discovered over 100 years ago in what is today Iraq and ancient Babylonia where civilization first flourished over 100,000 years ago.

I have been a serious student of one Zecharia Sitchin (Book: The 12th Planet) who is perhaps the leading translator of these most ancient tablets. If what he has translated is true, and I believe it is, we humans today are the product of genetic manipulation between the hominids of this planet and an alien race (The Elohim) from the 12th planet. We (The Adamu) were created in a laboratory in the "Edin" of Africa.

Everything in the OT Bible from the flood and why it occurred and why Noah was allowed to live, to Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Cain and Able, Adam and Eve in the garden of eden, etc. was translated from these tablets as he has so eloquently shown and compared in his books. The Epic of Gilgamesh is also translated from these tablets. The pyramids were built by the Elohim. Why does the bible say, "Let US make man in OUR image"? Elohim in the bible is plural. We were created as a slave race to mine their gold in Africa. Nothing else. They fought among themselves, divided the earth into 12 tribes and areas, fought for control of those areas. Intermarried for control. Taught other humans that their god was better than the other peoples' god ands so on. The wars being fought today are still based on these ancient squabbles. The bible was written by MAN for the sole purpose of control over the masses much the same way as Tsuyoiko said in another thread that easy credit is given today. It is all about control of one's thinking and beliefs. Think about it! I could go on and on but I don't have the time.

According to the tablets, Genesis is a recreation of how this solar system was created. Six days is used in the present translation to mislead. The solar system was created over hundreds of thousands of years according to the tablets and the earth was created by a collision between one of the moons of the 12th planet and what is now earth. Thus the Pacific ocean is so deep. If all the water were taken out of the earth the earth would look like half a sphere. Thus Genesis states, "All the waters were gathered in one place." That is also why there is a "so-called" asteroid belt between mars and Jupiter. Mars is a moon of this destroyed planet. (Hello Mars Man!)

Anyway, that is my belief after more than 15 years of research into religion and the bible and looking for life's answers. I believe Sitchin's translations are correct and are exactly how we and the earth were created. Call me weird, a heritic or whatever, but this is what I believe. Afterall his writings are translations and not theory. Sure there are some who debunk him out there, but that is because they want their own theories to be at the forefront. But Sitchin has them all beat in that his writings are translations NOT theories.

Do I believe in a God? Damn right I do. After all, someone had to set all of this vast, beautiful universe in motion. But I do not believe in the god as depicted in the bible as they were only aliens whose decendents are still fighting among themselves today in the Middle East where it all began.

Sure some may flame me for my beliefs, but it doesn't bother me as the holy priests of Rome refused to look into Galileo's telescope when he tried to prove to them that the earth was NOT the center of the Universe and that all planets revolved around the sun. Poor Galelio was sent to jail and forced to retract his beliefs or face execution.

The same holds true today. Some people refuse to "look into the telescope" and believe only what others tell them to believe instead of finding the truth for themselves. As a TV show once proclaimed, "The Truth Is Out There." But how many are brave enough to find it?
 
Howdy there Pachipro !! Nice post there. Something to look into, for sure, so I will check that out. I have never heard of this, so it may take some time to look it all over.

I'm not sure about the degree of editing you mentioned, but then again, I cannot say that there hasn't been. A degree of editing and second and third hands, yes, of course, but that may be something to look into also. I'm glad you joined in here that's good!

Revenat chan ! Hi there again!! I greatly appreciate your posts and your input, along with all the others. I can understand your idea of 'bashing'. Thanks for your sweetness.

Thank you my dear Martian sister !! Now that was interesting information of how that term's used there. bahoot acha hai !! (Hindi for 'very good') :cool:

See all you guys later on !! :wave:
 
wow, Pachipro!
that some piece of reading. I`ve heard similar things, maybe, they were retellings of Zecharia Sitchin. Only aliens were from outer solar system, not from 12th planet (or it`s not our 12th planet?) If it`s behind Pluto then how much resemblanse between us and aliens could be if the belt behind Pluto contains planetiods and doesn`t get much of sun energy? Only similarity of appearance, maybe.

As about planet Phaethon. Some say it is where our moon was driven to us
and that`s why the planet fell apart. They base their theory on some myths
which say that the sky was dark and once a moon appeared and now shines
at night.

As for the impact with another planet what made a deep Pacific ocean, that
had to happen at very early days of earth, so there would be enoght time for
such big amount of waters be created. Thereis another approach which claims
that once upon a time (also based on some myths) there was no ground at all - only waters. And such collision just caused crust to shift and waters to be redistributed.
Maybe, i sound like inquisitors demanding Galileo to refuse his ideas, but this particular theory (ok, translational proof) also leaves room for questions and reasonable doubts.

i can`t say much about Bible being edit, but, probably it is true, recalling
that little i know about convocations and history of Catholic church. Besides,
the translation also is in a way edition. I once saw a movie "Luther" where
they pictured his troubles in making German Bible.

------------------
@ Pararousia

i don`t think that this thread is intended to Bible bashing. Not sure, but more likely Bible was created to show greatness of Lord and to show his Will. And out of these purposes texts were combined. This is forward inferencing from facts to conclusion. With growth of science people learned a way to find out whether their conclusion was correct one or not. This is backward inferencing, if simple facts derived from moving bacwards are not all true that means something is missing in original plot

but it is also said the Faith (belief) is oasis within heart which can never be
achieved by coffle of brainwork :souka:
 
The current thinking, or most accepted theory of the moon is that is was created from a massive impact of another body angainst the Earth. This happened before there was any life on the planet. In fact most scientists think that the impact happened during the early formation of the solar system when there was still a lot of debris flying about. The Earths surface at this time wasn't even fully solid and what little atmosphere was higly toxic.
 
Nice input there Void, Mycernius !! :cool: I'm gonna see if I can find out more about that (but I've gotta let it sit on the back burner for a short while) in the ASAP future.

The point mentioned about faith, or believeing is good. I, for one, feel that that's relatively true. I say relatively, because there are what could be called 'tenents' or 'aritcles' of faith in Christianity (the underlying thread theme) which have been clearly shown--through that going backwards method, if you will--to be groundless. Faith and believing, just like emotion (and many simply do think about it) absolutely have to be grounded in information stored in the brain. Emotion is stimulated most strongly by incoming or reconcurring information being processed, associated, and excanged between cortex centers and the limbryic system. 'Most strongly' is to leave room for raw emotions--those that are hard-wired in from the very beginning--fear/pleasure, for example. So, faith...what one believes to be true, can sometimes be that placebo effect, but sometimes Christian faith is NOT that at all, and therein lies a common misconception. The number one misconception is the failure to recognize that the Bible is not all true fact--and that's simply a fact.

Therefore, IMHO (thanks Tsuyoiko chan, my lovely little imoto) if one chooses not to carefully think about and consider that fact, due to firstly having 'faith' that it is presuppostionally all true fact, then I would say that that faith is not of the same material as say, having faith that 'love will conquer in the end', or having faith that 'there is some 'mind' behind things, although we cannot know that itself'. Pointing this out has been, and is, one of my foremost concerns--in how it relates to having a more humble attitude towards other religions and the non-religious. (Just this morning there was an article in the Washington Post, 'Disharmony Among Military Chaplains' regarding a rise, and thus conflict, in 'Traditions of Pluralism and Diversity Clash With Rise in Evangelism'.)

This could be 'Bible bashing' depending on how one interprets that term, but I really, really think it is just being honest and realistic with the 'known to be true' facts. I hope to present those, piece by piece, in the thread on that matter, and hope all who wish to think (and argue against) about it, do so--in an academic but honest and realistic manner.

Nice posts there !! See you all later !! :wave:
 
Pachipro:
have been a serious student of one Zecharia Sitchin (Book: The 12th Planet) who is perhaps the leading translator of these most ancient tablets. If what he has translated is true, and I believe it is, we humans today are the product of genetic manipulation between the hominids of this planet and an alien race (The Elohim) from the 12th planet. We (The Adamu) were created in a laboratory in the "Edin" of Africa.

This reminded me a lot of the Raelian cult (remember them: cloneaid/dna/elohim) ...a lot of similiarities anyway. The Raelians declare themselves to be atheists; do the followers of Sitchin also?

***
I'll return with comments on the rest of the thread later *yawn* :sleep:
 
Just something that I have always wondered, why would Jesus' geneology be needed? Jesus was born of a virgin! Also, the geneologies in Matthew and Luke ar quite different. One of them must be wrong, as Jesus' father couldn't have had two fathers.
 
Revenant said:
Just something that I have always wondered, why would Jesus' geneology be needed? Jesus was born of a virgin! Also, the geneologies in Matthew and Luke ar quite different. One of them must be wrong, as Jesus' father couldn't have had two fathers.

That's a good question there Revenant. I would firstly suggest that the 'virgin' idea's not so certain. It is known that early Christians tried to re-word one passage in the LXX to get this idea, so it could be some kind of forced thing--but who knows.

The two geneologies are different because one goes through Jesus' father, supposedly, and the other through his mother. The effort can be seen as trying to emphasize that Jesus was exactly from the house of David on both lines.
 
misconception in application of Hebrews 4:12

I decided to put this here because it is closer to a simple misconceptional matter than to any textual understanding matter; yet the same working premise is being applied as outlined in post #1 on the biblical texts thread.

In the Hebrew Scriptures (HS--which basically means the OT) we can find almost 400 examples of this 'word of God' or 'word of YHWH' phrase. It had become a cliche type thing in the religious circles of Judaism to refer primarily to quotes that were said to have been spoken by YHWH.

In the NT there are two primary words which translate into 'word'--ho logos (Masc. n.) and to rhema (Neut. n.). Both words translate the Hebrew 'dobaur', especially ho logos. The term ho logos mostly refers to the message or overall content of a communication, and to rhema puts a little more emphasis on the words as a sound or elements in a speech or talk. In Acts and the epistles, ho logos is more commonly used to refer to the Christian message, in the sense of the oral gospel--the doctrine of Christ and what that means--but also refers to the OT.

It is very common to hear religious teachers and leaders apply the statement recorded at Hebrews 4:12 as though it had been talking about our Bible of today. This is a misconception which has been handed down from a couple of centuries back at the least, and is a misconception in the following ways.

That letter, written either by Paul, Apollos (Acts 18:24; 19:1; 1 Cor. 1:12; 3:4-6; Titus 3:13) or Barnabas (Acts 4:36; 11:30; 15:2, 36-39; 1 Cor 9:6; Gal 2:13) is thought to have been written around 61 CE, before a good number of other letters and gospel narratives had been written. That letter had clearly been written with Jewish people in mind, and caters to their knowledge of the HS. The intention in the immediate context of Hebrews 4:12, is to warn about letting their hearts 'harden' towards the 'good news' (vs. 2) using the episode of Massah as an example. (Ex 17:1-7; Pslm 95:8) Verses 12 and 13 tie in directly with verse 11 as an entire set of explanation on just how "God" is able to know how a person thinks in their heart, so that there can be no pretending. The Greek word ho logos has some other meanings that are seldom expounded on, and one of them is 'ration' or 'reason'. It is more possible that that had been the intent here (as Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon points out on page 3056) while it's also possible, yet to a lesser degree, that it could have been referring to the general gospel which the audience had already heard . (vs. 2) The reason for this conclusion is the obvious intent in verse 13, as well as the verb clause in verse 12.

Taking both as being possible even, however, it is historically incorrect to claim that the historical referent in the minds of the writer and the audience was a single volume book which we have today--the Bible. To make application of that passage as though it meant that today, but not then, is being unrealistic, illogical and careless with the historical and natural facts.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Pararousia
"You don't believe Jesus rose from the dead even though there were eyewitnesses to His death or resurrected life. You would say immediately, "oh they got it wrong" or "they were mistaken". These are men and women who were martyred because they knew a risen Lord. They risked their lives, their families, their cultural ties, all--not for a lie--but for the Truth!"

Tsuyoiko said:
I don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead for two reasons:
1) Because it is only attested to in one place - the Bible - by people who already believed that Jesus was the Messiah. When someone discovers references in other texts from the same era, written by different people, then I will reconsider.
2) Because it isn't scientifically possible for someone to be dead for 3 days and then come back to life - brain death occurs after a very few minutes, followed by rapid necrosis of brain cells - i.e. brain damage, precluding any possibility of resuscitation.

I think it is likely his followers (and perhaps even Jesus himself) had good reason to believe he had risen from the dead. The most likely explanation, IMHO, was that Jesus was not dead when he was taken from the cross, but was so weak he appeared to be dead, but later recovered. Even today there is a sense of awe when we hear of someone being 'brought back from the dead' by resuscitation, so how much greater must this have been in ancient times.

Tsuyoiko, that's why it's called a "m i r a c l e"! :D And your explanation is what is called the "swoon theory"...I would suggest you watch Mel Gibson's movie the Passion of the Christ and then tell me how someone could not die! The Roman soldiers were well versed on killing people! But you saying such a thing doesn't surprise me either, because although you claim you want evidence, you simply wouldn't believe even if you were there at the tomb that day!
 
Regarding signs on the cross

The basis of this post has to do with the inerrancy of the scripture and, in particular, to a reply regarding the signs on the cross, even though I've answered this a couple of times in previous posts, I'm not verbose so maybe previously I have not been crystal clear or thorough enough. I'll try again. "Inerrancy of the Bible means that the Bible tells the truth. Truth can and does include approximations, free quotations, language of appearances, and different accounts of the same event as long as those do not contradict." (Charles C. Ryrie)

John Enns said it this way: "Inerrancy allows for variety in style. The gospel of John was written in the simple style one might expect of an unlearned fisherman; Luke was written with a more sophisticated vocabulary of an educated person; Paul?fs epistles reflect the logic of a philosopher. All of these variations are entirely compatible with inerrancy.

"Inerrancy allows for variety in details in explaining the same event. This phenomenon is particularly observed in the synoptic gospels. It is important to remember that Jesus spoke in Aramaic and the writers of Scripture wrote their accounts in Greek, meaning they had to translate the original words into Greek. One writer would use slightly different words to describe the same incident, yet both would give the same meaning, albeit with different words. There is an additional reason for variety in details. One writer might have viewed the event from one standpoint while the other gospel writer viewed it from another standpoint. This would make the details appear different, yet both would be accurate.

"Inerrancy does not demand verbatim reporting of events. ?gIn times of antiquity it was not the practice to give a verbatim repetition every time something was written out?h (E. J. Young, Thy Word Is Truth, p. 119). A verbatim quote could not be demanded for several reasons. First, as already mentioned, the writer had to translate from Aramaic to Greek in recording Jesus?f words. Second, in making reference to Old Testament texts it would have been impossible to unroll the lengthy scrolls each time to produce a verbatim quote; furthermore, the scrolls were not readily available, hence, the freedom in Old Testament quotes (William R. Eichhorst, The Issue of Biblical Inerrancy: In Definition and Defence, Winnipeg, Man.: Winnipeg Bible College, n.d., p. 9).

"Inerrancy allows for departure from standard forms of grammar. Obviously it is wrong to force English rules of grammar upon the Scriptures. For example, in John 10:9 Jesus declares, ?gI am the door,?h whereas in verse 11 He states, ?gI am the Good Shepherd.?h In English this is considered mixing metaphors, but this is not a problem to Greek grammar or Hebrew language. In John 14:26 Jesus refers to the Spirit (pneuma = neuter) and then refers to the Spirit as ?gHe?h (ekeinos = masculine). This may raise an English grammarian?fs eyebrows, but it is not a problem of Greek grammar.

"Inerrancy allows for problem passages. Even with so vast a work as the Holy Scriptures it is impossible to provide solutions to all the problems. In some cases the solution awaits the findings of the archaeologist?fs spade; in another case it awaits the linguist?fs research; in other cases the solution may never be discovered for other reasons. The solution to some problems must be held in abeyance.

"Inerrancy demands the account does not teach error or contradiction. In the statements of Scripture, whatever is written is in accord with things as they are. Details may vary but it may still reflect things as they are. For example, in Matthew 8:5-13 it is noted that the centurion came to Jesus and said, ?gI am not qualified.?h In the parallel passage in Luke 7:1-10 it is noted that the elders came and said concerning the centurion, ?gHe is worthy.?h It appears the elders first came and spoke to Jesus, and later the centurion himself came. Both accounts are in accord with things as they are." In other words, doctrines are maintained.

Jesus also maintained that the Scripture was inerrant, but why is His testimony important? Because God authenticated and proved Him to be His own divine Son by the miracles and by the resurrection. Of course, if you're not willing to believe that, then why are you even bothering to read this? It is a waste of your time.

Truthfully, the only reason I continue to post here is because I firmly believe Isaiah 55:11, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is My word that goes out from My mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

(A continuation of this line of thought is at my post #11 at this link: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19025 in regard to the inspiration of the Scriptures.)
 
Still not answered

A lot of good checking has gone into your post Pararousia; hats off for that !! I can always appreciate such good groundwork. Nice job there !!

I'd like to point out that I have heard all these arguments before, and have dealt with them thoroughly; the authors (who by the way, are scholarly religionists, and one [Young, quoted by the original author] a religious scholar)
touched on some correct and incorrect conclusions. They argue from the top down; eg they are making an effort to protect an idea which came first--that the Bible cannot err. Their escape route for the many things which they wish not to deal with is found in the statement, "The solution for some problems must be held in abeyance."

A quick run-through

P (paragraph) 1: Inerrancy means that the Bible tells the truth. This would absolutely have to include historical truth ! Inerrancy would include free quotations. This is misleading. All quotations expressly or contextually claiming to be true historical events cannot be historically inaccurate and yet be inerrant. That is why I chose that sign example from amoung many, because it was said to have been written in Greek too, and all the writers had to do was to write down that Greek sentence. But of course, since they were only human, dealing with humans (it was all only an oral tradition at first), they forgot just how it was worded, if there had actually been any sign at all. It is a fact that every claim can not be historical truth. It is a fact that basically all Christians would avow that "God" has all knowledge and of course would have known what had been written on that said sign--so,...why didn't he let the writers know what had been written? Obviously "God" didn't, so the humans just made some mistakes--errancy.

P2: different style of writing. No problem whatsoever; why bother to mention that at all? (I'm talking about those commentators who try to defend the idea of inerrancy) Is it to give mass to their arguments? Or just for those who would have never considered the reality of different people have different writing styles?

P3: Translating from Aramaic/Hebrew to Greek. No real problem here either. As I've said before, room for translation margin must always be allowed when considering these points. It must also be pointed out that Aramaic is not that far from the Hebrew that the HS were mostly written in, and the syntax of both are not that far from that of Greek. Again, it was for this reason that I had chosen the sign board thing--it was supposed to have been written in Greek, so the margin for translation is nil.

The writers may have viewed the events from different standpoints. I have seen this so many times, as is, without any attempt to explain in detail just what that would mean, that it makes me seriously question the proposer's scholarship. The ONLY NT narrative which has any possible direct degree of 'eye witness'-ablility is that of John--but even that most likely had other hands in it. The basic story had been passed around orally for at least some nine years before any writing extant or deduce had ever been written. The authors of Matthew, Mark, and Luke were by NO MEANS eyewitnesses of the events in Jesus life. (although some argue that Mark may have been, there is no real evidence for that at all, and early church father's accounts dispute that idea.

HOWEVER, the GREATEST problem here is in this independent witness thing. Giving each writing (Mt., Mk., Lu., Jn.) to be a 'witness', those who argue as the source material you had checked did, ALWAYS have to appeal to independent witness--as they did there. If we acquiesce to that proposal, then we are agreeing that the witness was only human, not the work of some 'all-knowing, all-present and loving mind'. For if the later had been the case, in all knowable reality, there would only be ONE witness, not four !! I mean, why would "God" allow the people in the first century who only had the narrative of Luke, for example, to believe one event happened in a certain way, while those who only had Matthew, to believe that very same event had happened in a very different way? If we argue that it doesn't matter what the historical truth is, and so some of them being historically incorrect is o.k., we are STILL admitting to errancy.

P4: The grammer idea of Greek to English is o.k., but don't get mixed up in thinking that the grammer thing from Hebrew/Aramaic to Greek is a big problem. One source made a misleading statement there about John 14:26. In English we don't have feminine or masculine nouns, so the object pronoun need not be 'he' any more than it be 'she' for feminine nouns--of course it is one way of translating, but it is not definite, that's all, it could just as correctly be translated 'it'.

P6 & 7: Some must be ignored!!? This is the scapegoat. The actual historical impossibilites--and there are plenty--must not be looked at or considered? If one wishes to show that the Bible is inerrant as a whole, there can be absolutely no inerrancies in at all. If there are even ten clear errors, then the whole is no longer free from error, and it cannot be claimed that the Bible, as a whole, is inerrant.

An example is given. This example is NOT a problem of error. There are some more which those who argue such, produce which for those who have not looked into it so deeply, percieve to be errors--until they are explained as here. I am being honest when I say that I am fully aware of such, and yet know that there are many in the 'must-be-held-in-abeyance' area that no one ever touches. (and the few attempts I have seen do so in an illogical and misleading way.

Some good homework has been undertaken, that is a good sign !! And speaking of sign, you see, please don't forget or overlook:

1. The sign was supposed to have had a Greek sentence written on it, right?

2. Assuming that much to be historical fact--like it would have been if you had written down that sentence I had asked you to--we have the conclusion that the Greek sentence was a historical event. (and as such, cannot be changed...just like the sentences I am writing to you, they are a historical truths)

3. If each narrative writer or participant had known for a fact just what had been written on that sign, they would have all agreed to the exact wording and word order without any mistake whatsoever--just like looking at a video tape of the event which clearly showed that sentence whereby their claims could be verified as being historically correct. (no misquotes wanted here in such a serious matter, right?)

4. If any superenatural, all-knowing mind which had known just what the sentence had been had caused each writer to write just what the sentence had been, then all the writers would have written the same and very sentence. Isn't that logical?

5. Regardless of similarities, no writer agrees with any others on just what exact Greek sentence had been written on that board, so we have to conclude that they didn't know, and had not been told. Can you not see the reality of this line of thought? We are talking about a supposed event in the course of history, the writing of a Greek sentence on a piece of wood, which we are holding to be true to that extent for the time being--that is, that a Greek sentence had actually been written there--and that if any two or more people actually, really know that exact sentence, they will reproduce it exactly the same.

Now, as a proponent for biblical inerrency, would you say that "God" didn't know what had happened in history? Would you say that it doesn't matter to "God" if the human writers made mistakes in their writings? Or would you try to argue that there had actually been four Greek sentences on that board?

It is for this very reason, that I always bring up the concepts of being reasonable (practical + logical), honest, and fair. . . when looking at what is locked in history by means of having been written down. I will present many other such examples on the 'biblical text' thread--little by little. All the examples I give are the ones which those who argue for inerrance put under the 'must-be-held-in-abeyance' catagory; meaning, don't think about them and don't text them, just believe that each one has to be historical truth thus not in contradiction with each other, and thus not in error.

I hope you keep posting, and this post is not an answer to the experiment I had asked, because you didnn't say anything about what happened--whether the sentence I had asked you to write changed overnight after having written it, or whether it was still the same, just as you had written it. I hope to hear from you more, with consideration for ALL the points being made, please. Thanks for the post, and good work, I cheer you on in that respect...keep it up!! (but do make an effort for balance in scholarship) :cool:
 
Last edited:
Pararousia said:
Tsuyoiko, that's why it's called a "m i r a c l e"! :D And your explanation is what is called the "swoon theory"...I would suggest you watch Mel Gibson's movie the Passion of the Christ and then tell me how someone could not die! The Roman soldiers were well versed on killing people! But you saying such a thing doesn't surprise me either, because although you claim you want evidence, you simply wouldn't believe even if you were there at the tomb that day!
Are you aware of Occam's razor? I go along with that principle. It is unnecessary to invoke a 'miracle' as an explanation when there are perfectly satisfactory prosaic explanations available. Yes, it is hard to believe that someone could survive crucifixion, but a hell of a lot easier to believe than someone coming back from the dead!

As Mars Man and I have said previously, you are assuming a conclusion, then seeing what evidence you can find to support it, ignoring or disagreeing with sound arguments that disagree with your conclusion - the top-down approach. Think about this analogy. There has been a murder. The judge has a vision in which God tells him that Eric is the murderer. The judge then intructs the investigators to gather evidence. As God has given him the verdict, he knows which evidence is right. Sarah saw Eric arguing with the victim, so we'll keep Sarah's testimony. Richard the taxi driver took Eric home (20 minutes drive away) half-an-hour before the time of death, so we'll toss his statement. Jane is Eric's ex-wife and testifies to his violent behaviour, so we'll keep her testimony. Sally in forensics says that the fingerprints on the weapon don't match Eric's - better ignore her statement. The judge gathers all the evidence in support of his god-breathed verdict and presents it to the jury, who never get to see the rest of the evidence. Eric is convicted. Can you tell me why our justice systems do not work this way?

Final thought, from The World of Null-A by A E Van Vogt:
Common sense, do what it will, cannot avoid being surprised occasionally. The object of science is to spare it this emotion and create mental habits which shall be in such close accord with the habits of the world as to secure that nothing shall be unexpected.
 
Last edited:
It has been a few days, but I have been reading up on a few things.
Pararousia said:
Originally Posted by Pararousia
"You don't believe Jesus rose from the dead even though there were eyewitnesses to His death or resurrected life. You would say immediately, "oh they got it wrong" or "they were mistaken". These are men and women who were martyred because they knew a risen Lord. They risked their lives, their families, their cultural ties, all--not for a lie--but for the Truth!"



Tsuyoiko, that's why it's called a "m i r a c l e"! :D And your explanation is what is called the "swoon theory"...I would suggest you watch Mel Gibson's movie the Passion of the Christ and then tell me how someone could not die! The Roman soldiers were well versed on killing people! But you saying such a thing doesn't surprise me either, because although you claim you want evidence, you simply wouldn't believe even if you were there at the tomb that day!
I have a big problem with the story of Jesus rising from the dead and the whole crucifiction. It stems from several facts of Jewish and roman law at the time of the crucifiction and events that took place. As has been pointed out the Gospels were written about 68 - 74 AD apart from John, which seems to date from 100AD. The date of the first gospels composition (Matthew, Mark and Luke) is from about the time of the Jewish Rebellion, which ended at the seige of Masada. To be acceptable in a Roman world the authors would have to be careful on what they put into the gospels. There aim was to try and spread their faith among the general population. To do this it would be advantagous to paint the Jews in a bad light and the Romans in a good light.
It is here were the laws of the time don't really add up to what is in the Gospels. Crucifiction was used against people who had commited a very serious crime against the Romans, yet the Gospels have Jesus commiting a crime against the Jews not the Romans. The Jewish elders could condemm people to death in their own courts at the time. Their method of execution was stoning, not cruxifiction, so why crucify him and not stone him? In fact why take it to the Roamn authorities at all, he was a Jewish problem? Either way all the Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified.
The next problem I find is the crucifiction itself and the time it took Jesus to die. Crucifiction is a slow death and would take several days for anyone to expire, yet it took Jesus 9 hours to die. There is also the fact that the crucifiction seemed to take place away from the public. Surely such a criminal should have been executed in front of the public. Matt 27:55, Mark 15:40, Luke 23:49 all seem to attest that the execution was seem from afar ie: not public.
Just before jesus died it is mentioned that he was given a sponge of vinegar. Why do this? Vinegar acts as a restorative to exhausted people. Then why give a restorative to a man who the authorities wanted dead? Unless the execution was a ruse of some kind. In John 19:31 - 37. it is mentioned that the soldiers go to brake the legs of the men on the crosses. This was an act of mercy, it speed up the death of the victim. When they came to Jesus the reported him as dead, so the legs weren't broken. Yet one soldier stabbed him in the side and blood flowed from the wound. My biology is not great, but I was always taught that a dead body does not bleed much. the heart has stopped and there in no pressure to push the blood out, so why did this dead man bleed? There are the following passages in John 19:35 - 37 saying that certain scriptures were fulfilled by this act. This refers to texts that certain events would happen when the Messiah is executed and low and behold it does.
Finally there is the taking down of the body and its burial. normal procedure was to leave the body on the cross for the birds to pick at. Same was done in the mediaeval period with the gibbet. Bodies where not allowed to be taken down. Yet Jesus was, and given to Joseph of Arimathaea. Then the body is wrapped and buried only to rise several days later. Reading through the Gospels I get a feeling that the crucifiction was a hurried affair and that Jesus never died on the cross. The entire execution was staged IMHO. The best way to get people to spread a message is to martyr someone. If you stage a death according to prophecy and then have the person appear to have risen from the dead several days later, also according to prophecy, then it would be declared a miracle by those willing to believe. unfortunatly not everyone believed the miracle. The Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, only a prophet. The Muslims only see him as a prophet and regard the crucifiction as a fabrication. AFAIK there are Islamic texts that refer to Jesus as being alive and well years after his death.
I would take the Passion of the Christ with a pinch of salt. Mel Gibson is a commited Catholic. He is hardly going to show the crucifiction as a fabrication and a hoax.
I could have typed more, but my fingers are starting to wear. Look forward to any response :-)
 
Back
Top