Chronology of Cro-Magnon Y-DNA

[Maciamo]

European Early Modern Humans (EEMH), commonly known as Cro-Magnons, arrived in several waves from the Near East to Europe. Thinking about what Y-DNA haplogroup can be associated with them, and in which order they migrated to Europe, I came up with the following chronology for the Upper Paleolithic.

1) Haplogroup C6 (or C*, which became C6 in Europe)

2) Haplogroup F

3) Haplogroup IJ (which became I in Europe)

 

[sparkey]

C-V20 is indeed very interesting. If we got an Aurignacian sample, I would place the odds of it being C-V20 much higher than I, which may have branched from IJ more recently than that. A better guess for I would be that it developed in Gravettian culture. So you've got your chronology right, although I'm not as sure what to think of F.

Something interesting about C-V20: Apparently, the C subclade closest to it is C-M8. That just goes to show how out-there C-V20 is: C-M8 is apparently Jomon Japanese.

 

[nordicwarrior]

European Early Modern Humans (EEMH), commonly known as Cro-Magnons, arrived in several waves from the Near East to Europe. Thinking about what Y-DNA haplogroup can be associated with them, and in which order they migrated to Europe, I came up with the following chronology for the Upper Paleolithic.

1) Haplogroup C6 (or C*, which became C6 in Europe)

2) Haplogroup F

3) Haplogroup IJ (which became I in Europe)

Eh, I've looked into the C6 and F lines in Paleo Europe but it makes the most sense that first in Europe was hg. I (M170). The C groups headed straight to India after their exodus from Africa tightly following the coastal contours. The possible Jomon connection between C1 and C6, C7, or C8 (depending on who's doing the naming) would pull any possible European C settlers much further East making C6 first in to Europe unlikely. F has a better chance, but a mountainous population harboring ancient lines would seem most obvious, yet that isn't what we find. So my apologies to Maciamo... hg. I was prob. first in. Unless of course we grant the honor to R1b based on the inherent superiority of the ancient Celtic/Arayan lineages.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Now F.H. before you attempt to deconstruct my argument, please be aware I've utilized a literary device commonly found in less polished musings... and that is sarcasm. Sometimes you really do have to point some stuff out though. Keeps everybody on their toes.

 

[Maciamo]

C-V20 is indeed very interesting. If we got an Aurignacian sample, I would place the odds of it being C-V20 much higher than I, which may have branched from IJ more recently than that. A better guess for I would be that it developed in Gravettian culture. So you've got your chronology right, although I'm not as sure what to think of F.

Something interesting about C-V20: Apparently, the C subclade closest to it is C-M8. That just goes to show how out-there C-V20 is: C-M8 is apparently Jomon Japanese.

Interesting link. So it seems from the new phylogeny that the Japanese C-M8 belongs to the same branch (Z1426) as the European C-V20 and the Middle Eastern + Central Asian C-M356. Here is the scenario I envisage;

Haplogroup C left East Africa following the coasts of the Indian Ocean.

The first group to split away was Z1426, which migrated to the Arabian peninsula, then to the Middle East. It then split into two groups CTS11043 and F1370. CTS11043 might have moved to Central Asia, then split again in two, one going west to Europe to become V20, and the second going east to East Asia (M8), but surviving today only in Japan (and even there only in 4% of the population). The F1370 group remained in the Middle East and South Asia, where it became M356. All of them would be overwhelmed by later migrations of haplogroup F and its subclades.

The rest of haplogroup C continued east along the Indian Ocean until Southeast Asia, where it split into three groups:

1) M38 to Indonesia, Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia.

2) M217 to Northeast Asia.

3) M347 to Australia (Aborigines)

 

[sparkey]

Coming back to F: Are there any extant F (xG, xH, xIJK) subclades that are apparently Paleolithic European? I've read F3 proposed, but it seems more diverse and frequent in West Asia, so it may be a better candidate for a Neolithic introduction or something (although I don't know its phylogeny or diversity patterns well).

I'm also aware of the LBK F* sample, but of course LBK is Neolithic, and although they determined that it was xG, xH, xI, xJ, and xK, that leaves room for IJ, ala modern samples from Iran, or any number of undifferentiated F subclades.

So is there some evidence for ancient F (xG, xH, xIJK) that I'm missing, or is it just a good assumption that some would have come in at some point? Also, if we're associating (proto-)C-V20 tentatively with the Aurignacian and (proto-)I tentatively with the Gravettian, what's in-between for undifferentiated F?

 

[Maciamo]

Coming back to F: Are there any extant F (xG, xH, xIJK) subclades that are apparently Paleolithic European? I've read F3 proposed, but it seems more diverse and frequent in West Asia, so it may be a better candidate for a Neolithic introduction or something (although I don't know its phylogeny or diversity patterns well).

I'm also aware of the LBK F* sample, but of course LBK is Neolithic, and although they determined that it was xG, xH, xI, xJ, and xK, that leaves room for IJ, ala modern samples from Iran, or any number of undifferentiated F subclades.

So is there some evidence for ancient F (xG, xH, xIJK) that I'm missing, or is it just a good assumption that some would have come in at some point? Also, if we're associating (proto-)C-V20 tentatively with the Aurignacian and (proto-)I tentatively with the Gravettian, what's in-between for undifferentiated F?

There isn't necessarily any surviving Palaeolithic European F to this day, but that doesn't mean there wasn't any in the past.

AFAIK, F3 is essentially European though. Where did you read that it was more common or diverse in West Asia ? Anyhow, even if it was haplogroup F is so understudied that the European and West Asian F3 could very well belong to different subclades differentiated by a long series of mutations, owing to a Palaeolithic split between the two groups. I don't have much info about F, so this is purely speculation.

 

[sparkey]

AFAIK, F3 is essentially European though. Where did you read that it was more common or diverse in West Asia ? Anyhow, even if it was haplogroup F is so understudied that the European and West Asian F3 could very well belong to different subclades differentiated by a long series of mutations, owing to a Palaeolithic split between the two groups. I don't have much info about F, so this is purely speculation.

Yeah, don't take my word about F3. I'm having trouble finding any good analyses, but I have observed before that at the F Project there are several West Asian F3 samples. I've also read about Assyrians carrying F3; I think sample N37056 in that project represents such a person. I'd like to see more work done on it.

 

[Fire Haired]

Maciamo since Y DNA C M130 brother F M89 is also only found in non sub Saharan Africans it would make sense their father CF P143 migrated out of Africa and C M130 was born in the middle east and probably never in sub sahra Africa. Also i think something key to remember is that aust dna has proven that Mongliods and Oceania(like native Austrliens) go back to the same family they are very related. click here they are really their own race Oceania Mongliod. And Caucasians so Europeans, mid easterns, and north Africans had split from Oceania Mongliod an extremely long time ago. I guess it is possible C CTS11043 could have migrated to both Europe and asia like that but it does not represent their main ancestry if u get what i am saying. This could mean there was sometype of non Caucasin migration into Paleolithic Europe or at least Caucasins with orignally non Caucasin Y DNA.

Also i saw on the mtDNA U think u said it was born probably in southwest Asia because human just got out of Africa. I really dis agree with that because mtDNA U mother N is only found in non Africans and so its aunt M so it had been out of Africa for probably 10,000's of years. I think out of Africa dates are way way way way way way way to young. There is no way it was only 60,000ybp then all of a sudden u have people in Europe 50,000ybp. There are multiple over 42,000 year old human remains in Europe even in Britian and Italy they were already pretty spread out Caucasians from the mid east arrived at least 50,000ybp. There is a 95,000-115,000year old human skull in Isreal(not Africa) its the oldest completely Modern Human skull that i know of. click here why don't people like spencer wells realize that means there were human out of Africa 100,000ybp 40,000 years before they said human left and 40,000 years old than how old they say y DNa adam is. The three major human families Caucasin, Sub Sharan African, and Mongliod Oceania the phyiscal differnces can be huge. We know the Caucasin look like has been around for at least 60,000 years. I know the oldest human skulls in Europe are Caucasin and they arrived probably at least 50,000ybp and had already been in the mid east for a very long time. U get what i am saying there is no way that humans left Africa 60,000ybp then 2,000 years later skin color facial features everything changed and rapidly in 10,000-20,000 years covered Europe, asia, and Austrilla i really doubt that. About Caucasian features south Asians who have Caucasin facial features, body build, body hair, facial hair actulley in globe13 are a little more related to Oceania Mongliod same with Y DNa and mtDNA which shows those features are even older how long ago was their common ancestors with the black skinned and nappy haired Oceania and Sub sharan african very long time ago.

 

[Fire Haired]

Coming back to F: Are there any extant F (xG, xH, xIJK) subclades that are apparently Paleolithic European? I've read F3 proposed, but it seems more diverse and frequent in West Asia, so it may be a better candidate for a Neolithic introduction or something (although I don't know its phylogeny or diversity patterns well).

I'm also aware of the LBK F* sample, but of course LBK is Neolithic, and although they determined that it was xG, xH, xI, xJ, and xK, that leaves room for IJ, ala modern samples from Iran, or any number of undifferentiated F subclades.

So is there some evidence for ancient F (xG, xH, xIJK) that I'm missing, or is it just a good assumption that some would have come in at some point? Also, if we're associating (proto-)C-V20 tentatively with the Aurignacian and (proto-)I tentatively with the Gravettian, what's in-between for undifferentiated F?

It would make sense a F subclade that would be in Paleolithic Europe originated in west Asia. Since Europeans and the whole Caucasian race originated in west Asia including Cro magnon(Europeans main ancestors were Paleolithic so technicalley Cro magnon). I dont know if there are any age estimates on the C and F that might be from Paleolithic Europe but if the F is estimated as like 60,000 years old it would make sense it is also found in west asia.

I doubt that F* from LBK i dont know how they come up with those results but they claim they found R1* in mid ages basque samples. I bet thats a mistake and i bet the F* is also a mistake.

 

[Fire Haired]

Eh, I've looked into the C6 and F lines in Paleo Europe but it makes the most sense that first in Europe was hg. I (M170). The C groups headed straight to India after their exodus from Africa tightly following the coastal contours. The possible Jomon connection between C1 and C6, C7, or C8 (depending on who's doing the naming) would pull any possible European C settlers much further East making C6 first in to Europe unlikely. F has a better chance, but a mountainous population harboring ancient lines would seem most obvious, yet that isn't what we find. So my apologies to Maciamo... hg. I was prob. first in. Unless of course we grant the honor to R1b based on the inherent superiority of the ancient Celtic/Arayan lineages.

Age estimates uselly give an idea of age but i don't completely trust them i give 10,00;s of years of room when it is major haplogroups like F. Hg I is only estimated from what i have heard as 30,000 years old. There are multiple human remains in Europe that are over 42,000 years old including in Britain and Italy. So they had to have some type of Y DNa haplogroup hg I seems to young. also look at hg I2a1a M26 in western Europe at the earliest it spread 10,000-20,000ybp same with I2a1b in eastern Europe, I2a2 in central Europe, and I1 in central Europe and Scandinavia. Some deifntley may have been spread later so what did Europe have over 20,000ybp. Hg I may have been a small group that later for some reason their paternal lineages became dominate. So there had to be some type of Y DNA in Europe before I and its father IJ the best candidates deifntley are F and C.

 

[nordicwarrior]

F.H., you've done an excellent job of pointing out the fact that the timelines dealing with the various paternal haplogroups are in need of some fine tuning to say the least. And since Maciamo himself uses the phrase "so this is purely speculation" regarding the possible scenerios... I will toss my theory out there with the rest. (Those who are aware of my track record are surely sharpening their collective pencils as I type my hypothesis...)

 

[nordicwarrior]

*IJ was indeed "first in" to Europe-- but I must be more descriptive of what I'm considering Europe here, and this may cause it's own wave of disagreement. ANATOLIA. Yes that most busy strip of human traffic was the spot were proto-IJ or *IJ made their first appearance in Europe, and also were the two groups parted ways. Proto I (or really I proper at this point) headed north and proto J headed on a south bond route. So both I and J made it into the European theater (or shall I say theatre), but I stayed and J headed back. Again, this is my own virtually proofless theorem... and is therefore almost pure speculation.

 

[Fire Haired]

*IJ was indeed "first in" to Europe-- but I must be more descriptive of what I'm considering Europe here, and this may cause it's own wave of disagreement. ANATOLIA. Yes that most busy strip of human traffic was the spot were proto-IJ or *IJ made their first appearance in Europe, and also were the two groups parted ways. Proto I (or really I proper at this point) headed north and proto J headed on a south bond route. So both I and J made it into the European theater (or shall I say theatre), but I stayed and J headed back. Again, this is my own virtually proofless theorem... and is therefore almost pure speculation.

I guess that is pure speculation sure IJ may have been in Europe 45,000 years ago. But its descendants I2a1a M26, I2a1b M238, I2a2 P214, and I1 M253 did not became popular till at the earliest 10,000-20,000ybp. So IJ and I were most likely not very popular in Europeans over 20,000ybp. And since like is aid multiple 42,000 or older human remains in Europe including in Britain and Italy(Caucasians from mid east probably first arrived 50,000ybp>) means there were probably other haplogroups.

It seems like hg I became popular in Europe right after 20,000ybp which could mark to a huge migration, But the subclades were already pretty far apart so probably not from the same source. Aust dna shows Europeans Paleoithic ancestors were most related to the group most tests call west asian.

here is a custom map i made of globe13 west asian.


MIght give an idea were they came from. This is were i think they came from. Areas were west asian is dominte and other groups southwest asian and med are not very popular.
View attachment 689

Not surprising it is literally at the border of Europe and the mid east. Also maybe pale skinned very west Asian Georgians and caucus people is connected with European pale skin. Origin of European palness

 

[nordicwarrior]

Of course there's also the Spencer Wells school of thought that has a single male of ancient R1b stock ride in on a brilliant white steed while draped in flowing robes from the chilly steppes of Russia. This lone blonde haired/blue eyed male would then have cracked his giant copper staff against the Cliffs of Dover commanding all the Neanderthal females within earshot to open their thighs and obediently accept his seed. We mustn't forget to include this possible scenario... (and yes this horse would be capable of swimming loooong distances).

 

[Fire Haired]

Of course there's also the Spencer Wells school of thought that has a single male of ancient R1b stock ride in on a brilliant white steed while draped in flowing robes from the chilly steppes of Russia. This lone blonde haired/blue eyed male would then have cracked his giant copper staff against the Cliffs of Dover commanding all the Neanderthal females within earshot to open their thighs and obediently accept his seed. We mustn't forget to include this possible scenario... (and yes this horse would be capable of swimming loooong distances).

I wouldn't be surprised if Spencer Wells did say that. U should watch his documentaries their full of BS. I couldn't believe all the lies he was saying. Is is actulley a expert or just a figure for national geographic. He is still telling a Paleolithic origin of R1b. His migration maps are based on modern distributions its pathetic. Like with U5b he shows separate lines from the mid east to North Africa and Europe. When really it was Iberian's who migrated to North Africa when U5 had already been in Europe for around 50,000 years. I am sick of the lies Geno 2.0 is spreading.

Why are Neanderthals domesticated horses and copper but in the same story. Neanderthals went extinct over 20,000 years before any of that stuff was invented.

 

[nordicwarrior]

...Why are Neanderthals domesticated horses and copper but in the same story. Neanderthals went extinct over 20,000 years before any of that stuff was invented.

Poetic license. Nothing more, nothing less. And by the way, my crackpot *IJ Anatolia "first into Europe" conjecture has far more proof than I alluded to before. But I've got to scratch my reoccurring online chess itch. I can't control where my interests take me... I can only follow.

 

[Nobody1]

Of course there's also the Spencer Wells school of thought that has a single male of ancient R1b stock ride in on a brilliant white steed while draped in flowing robes from the chilly steppes of Russia. This lone blonde haired/blue eyed male would then have cracked his giant copper staff against the Cliffs of Dover commanding all the Neanderthal females within earshot to open their thighs and obediently accept his seed. We mustn't forget to include this possible scenario... (and yes this horse would be capable of swimming loooong distances).

Thats just ridiculous;
Spencer Wells never claimed that the steed was white;

 

[Fire Haired]

Poetic license. Nothing more, nothing less. And by the way, my crackpot *IJ Anatolia "first into Europe" conjecture has far more proof than I alluded to before. But I've got to scratch my reoccurring online chess itch. I can't control where my interests take me... I can only follow.

Were did u learn to write the way u do. U sound like a really smart novelist like the person who wrote the Great Gatsby. But sometimes ur not writting about the subject everyone else is.

 

[nordicwarrior]

...Spencer Wells never claimed that the steed was white;

So true, you busted me Nobody1! Of course Dr. Wells doesn't see equine colors like the rest of us. He only sees a four legged mammal that bravely marched out of Africa 17,000 years ago in search of greener pastures. There is no chestnut horse, no black, white, or brindle horse (wait... I think brindle applies to puppies) according to Spencer's advanced world view-- only the noble, odd toed ungulate that can trace it's complete and total lineage back to the wild heart of Africa.