Immigration Cold blooded murder of the very worst kind

[Mycernius]

I write that Islam is a theocracy because Islam is not constrained by national borders.

Neither is christianity, especially catholism, or Judaism. Of the top of my head there are only really a couple of major religions that are constrainted by national borders being Jains and Shinto. Ask the Sikhs in your local area if they are more Sikhs than English. I know for a fact that some see themselves as Sikh first, then english. Some even don't see themselves as english first, despite being born in this country.

Because of this differentiation between the concepts that we have regarding the make up of the world and the Islamic view so I state (correctly) that Islam is a Theocracy.

And yet there are islamic countries that are not theocracies and base their ideals on democracy and human rights rather than the sayings of a arabic warlord. But let us see what the definition of a theocracy is:

theocracy (a political unit governed by a deity (or by officials thought to be divinely guided))
theocracy (the belief in government by divine guidance)

Well that covers islam, christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Shinto, et al
What else do we have:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy
Wikipedia gives us three current theocracies in the world, two of them islamic, one of them christian. It strikes me you are trying to redefine theocracy to suit your own needs.

Islam is a religion only in the broad use of the word. Islam is very much more, much closer to a cult than a religion.

I call christianity a cult of Judasim. All religions are cults of one form or another. Islam is no different to any other. But shall we look at the definition of the word religion:

•a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
•an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"

Not trying to redefine words again are you because as far as I can see all religion fall under this definition, including islam.

Islam dictates every aspect of life from birth to death and even the way that a Mohammedan wipes his backside, which hand to use, how many stones (yeugh!) to use, and even what to do with them afterwards.

I atke it you are not familiar with orthodox Judasim? That also gives them a set of rules which they follow from birth to death. Same with strict buddhists. Yet I know plenty of muslims that do not follow the letter of the law as told by islam.

The religious, perhapse “theist” part of Islam is what binds the whole thing together by threat and promise.

As does christianity, mormonism and scientology.

Christianity does NOT have a religion at its core.

Ermm, yes it does, just because people don't follow the message as they should it is founded on religious principles.

At least true Christianity and not Christian churches such as the Roman Catholic church that is a singularly un-Christian organisation (reach for my tin hat!) that has Christianity at its core

Oh dear, using no true scotmans fallacy.

Our Western democracies do have Judeo-Christianity at the core of our democracies, not the rules and commandments of these religions, but the basic morality.

Again, I call bollocks on that. The very idea of democracy predates christianity. Are you saying that rape, murder and stealing are a result of judeo-christian laws? These same morals that were used to condone slavery? yet there are not rules or morals that condemn peadophillia in biblical texts, yet we hate it. The problem is that crime rates and religious priciples do not match. Japan, a non-christian country, has one of the lowest murder rates in the world. What are there morals based on, because they have no judeo-christian roots?

Our cultures have evolved with these moralities about not stealing, not killing, not lying, not doing things that cause social or family disruption, and the very strength of our democracy has resulted in our societies now for the most part becoming politically secular while retaining the decency and values we take for granted and assume others do also.

We evolved them, as did every other countriy in the world, but not because of religious ideals, but, as you mentioned, by becoming more secularised. In other words we removed the religion from morality and made society better.

I wonder how many people realise that lying in Islam is not only permitted but advised under certain circumstances?

Your point being?

Is Christianity a warped and plagiarised religion, a mish mash of misunderstood twisted and even deliberately distorted things that provide the stick and the carrot to impose and excuse discipline on those caught up in? No. Christianity is following the teaching of Christ and believing in him as a personal saviour

A person of dubious existance and has many attributes you would find in pagan religions. See here for comparisons with Horus. Also with Sol Invictus and Mithraism

Most self proclaimed Christian churches, now that’s a different matter. Many if not most are distinctly un-Christian.

Again with the No true scotmans fallacy. I'd expect this from a theist.

Am I a Christian? No. I’m a dyed in the wool “hard” atheist.

Good.:cool-v:

Cherry picking from the “holy” books.

Every theists cherry picks from his holy book, from sikhs that smoke to hindus that eat beef to muslims that drink.

To start with it’s utterly misleading to think of The Bible as being in the same category as the Koran.

Funny, seing most to the quran is plagurised from the bible.

The former is a very politically biased collection of separate books assembled in the case of the OT generally in time order, and the NT a series of accounts, most non contemporary of what they describe followed by a series of commentaries and letters from Paul. In order to make much sense of the OT, especially the Pentateuch, it’s necessary to read it in context with events taking place at the same time.

I have read the damn thing.

That, for example, explains why early on in the Bible homosexuality was strictly forbidden, and yet later on when time has passed and circumstances changed David and Jonathan were plainly at it like knives

Still is as far as most religious christians are concerned. Then there are the Fred Phelps in this world. (I wonder if he was sexually abused as a boy?)

The Koran on the other hand is very different. For one thing it is not (usually) presented in time order, for another it is not intended as a history,

But is also a book with basic social ideals in it that improve the lot of the people at the time that lived in the arabian pennisular. You might not agree on the rights women have according to the quran, but it was a lot better than the rights (bugger all) they had before. Women in the arabian pennisular before islam were nothing more than property, no better than cattle.

and for a third it is intended to be remembered and recited and above all to BE cherry picked from.

Just as christians do with the bible. How many times has a christian said to you that they don't use the OT because Jebus changed all of that, despite Jebus saying "I come not to change the law, but to enforce it".

What is also worth note is that when the various sura are assembled in time sequence what emerges is a mass of contradictions, of changes to suit Mohammed’s needs and wants, and even some big time embarrassments

At least the bibles contradictions are in some sort of order

Embarrassments such as the Gharaniq business that are now known as the Satanic verses, things that Mohammed rapidly pulled out when it was pointed out they ran counter to his claims about his “Allah”.

Boy oh boy, a prophet pulls something out of his arse. Well, that has never happened before.

Christian extremists who deliberately kill? If these people actually followed the teaching of Christ there is no way while they’ve got a hole where the sun don’t shine they would, or for that matter COULD do the things that they do.

If they followed the teachings of chrsit they would be mixed up and crazy people. Hang on...

If they followed the teaching of their religion they simply could not,

Unless you are a witch.

and yet if the teaching of the Koran is followed, especially when the Hadith are used as examples of what Mohammed did and said, there can be every justification to kill the infidel. Especially if we draw a picture of Mohammed satirising him because of what his followers get up to

Mohammad was a good example of power corrupts. Read the early suras and he made a lot of social reforms. After his "spat" with Mecca did he become a little more bloody and paranoid. You know I can't think of anywhere in the bible where the hebrews kill, rape and slaughter all non-jews? /sarcasm off.

Once again I ask why do you use the old forum of Mohammadan for Muslim, a term that dropped out of general usage by 1960?

 

[Maciamo]

I think mainly the history of Russian oppression and atrocities in the Caucasus is the basis of their antagonism against Russia.

I admit that I am not well informed about the atrocities you are referring to.

It's not only oil from the Russian side, it's about the cohesion of the Russian federation as well. The break up of the Soviet Union brought Russia into a panic. Everything they took for granted crumbled. I remember the fear I saw in some people's eyes - when I lived in Moscow and St. Petersburg - while discussing secession of the Caucasus regions. There were speculations that the whole fabric of the country would break in the seams. One has to see the first Chechen war in the light of that and the Soviet break up. A war that destroyed the region, and paved the way for the second one.

This is a very, very small region with just over a million people. It's quite on the Kosovo level. The possible threat to the federation is not gone. If Chechnya goes, then it's quite likely that Dagestan and Ingushetia goes and the region falls apart, and then the gods only know what region will want to secede next.

Why would the whole fabric of the country break in the seams if tiny Caucasian regions became independent ? Russia withstood the independence of all Central Asia, Ukraine, Belarus (well in name at least) and the Baltic states. What's Chechnya worth compared to Kazakhstan or Ukraine ?

There are voices for increased independence from different oblasts in Russia. Even Kaliningrad has such movements. Chechnya is at the start of that seam that could unravel.

I would understand better the independence of Kaliningrad, as it is surrounded by the EU and is historically German and Polish-Lithuanian more than Russian.

 

[Michael Folkesson]

I am not saying it would, but these were the fears and the possibilities, and parts of the federation have been squeaking for a long time. These parts are also seen as integral parts of the country. The countries you refer to were never a part of Russia.

Yes, Old Königsberg. Kaliningrad was ethnically cleansed and is more or less populated purely by Russians. There are almost no Germans there. It's just as Russian as any part of Russia. Many wish Kaliningrad to become a republic. I agree that it would be better for them to be able to make independent bilateral agreements with neighbor countries and the EU. I don't think that will happen though. The party for the republic was forced to dissolve, and Moscow shows no interests in such a change.

 

[Gwyllgi]

Michael

Once again, rather than cut and paste …..

I don’t think that I wrote that religion is the original source of good morality, but what I do believe is that religion memorialises good morality that a society has learned as being best for its continuation.

I also believe that many people need religious faith in order to accept the constrains that religion imposes for them to hold to that good morality.

Being an Atheist it’s a damm sight harder to NOT “covert my neighbours Ferrari” than for a Christian because I have to consciously make the effort based on my own morality, not on a religious commandment.

Likewise if a person were to rigorously follow the last line of “The Witches Rede” life would be considerably more difficult for them than for a Christian for whom limits are actually placed within which they need to live.

But there remains one huge difference between Islam and all else, whereas Judaism and Christianity, and in fact everything from Aladura to Zoroastrianism, can change to suite a changing world Islam can’t.

You comment on murder. But what IS murder? Is it murder for a court to order the execution of a proven serial killer? Is it murder when the person charged by the legal system of the land does whatever it is he does? Is it murder when a soldier kills an an enemy in battle? Of course not.

So if a person who lives in a different land where there are different laws kills someone when his law demands that he does so is he committing murder in his eyes or under the terms of his law? Certainly he will be committing murder if he commits the act in a land where his laws do not apply, but murder in that land.

It is precisely because the Koran contains direction on when and how and who to kill that makes those who di so murders in OUR land, Dar ul-Haarb, but actually righteous men in THEIR land, Dar ul-Islam, and remember, Dar ul-Islam has VERY different boundaries than our national borders.

Democracy. Democracy is not 200 years old. It is as old as time itself but was codified by the Greeks. Democracy comes in many forms but the bottom line remains that within a democracy people make the laws, people amend the laws, and people even remove laws. Such is not the case in Islam.

That is why the attempts to impose democracy on Islamic nations is bound to fail and even where a form of democracy exists it is a faux democracy since the laws that can be made, changed, or abandoned are limited to those things that are outside of the dictates of the Koran.

And that is why Islam is incompatible with our world and why Turkey MUST be prevented from accession to the EU.

As for the loss of democracy not being a bad thing, I really had to read that several times because it is such an appalling suggestion.

Also worth comment is the presence of Mohammedans living in our lands. The problem isn’t with the people, the problem is with Islam. To have theocracy in the same place as democracy, especially a rabid proselytising theocracy that is opposite top democracy is simply wrong.

If these people want to follow the religious requirements of Islam beyond their own front door then they should go to a land where that is acceptable. This isn’t about religious freedom, it’s about facing down a malign thing that not only threatens our democracy, but is making constant attacks on it.

A mosque here, a tower there, walking black pillar boxes, pharmacists who won’t serve contraceptives, supermarket check out staff who won’t check out bacon or alcohol, halal meat being introduced into school meals and now even KFC outlets where “Baconburgers” are banned from sale, the list goes on and on.

What would I like to be done about the Mohammedan issue? Simple.

Proscribe Islam, Or at the very least do nothing that is in any way advantageous for Islam. No halal meat, no “cultural sensitivity”, no objectionable attire, and nothing that has been introduced with the intent of being Islam friendly such as interest free banking.

And as for ghetto’s the ghetto’s are being created. and well fenced.

By the Mohammedans themselves, and their not ghetto’s they’re colonies.

 

[Michael Folkesson]

Gwyllgi, you are right that Greek democracy is ancient, but what I mean is that the Athenian democracy wouldn't pass the criteria of modern democracy. It was a seed of ideas, but no that wasn't really democracy. Were it today, it wouldn't be called that. It was a form of elite mob rule. The Romans developed better representative forms of democracy, but the root of modern democracy are British and French ideas realized with the American and French revolution. With the industrial revolution and development of the ideologies, we managed to create a solid foundation for the democracies to stand on with large middle classes. Something not possible in earlier eras. That doesn't mean that the Greek contribution is unimportant.

Is it murder for a court to order the execution of a proven serial killer? Yes. There are several reasons for why the EU is abolitionist. This is one.

As for the rest, I don't know what to say. Stop reading the Daily Mail and viewing fundamentalists as the Muslim blueprint maybe. If things are so bad in Britain, what are you doing for things to be better? Does agitating against Muslims help?

 

[Gwyllgi]

As for the rest, I don't know what to say. Stop reading the Daily Mail and viewing fundamentalists as the Muslim blueprint maybe. If things are so bad in Britain, what are you doing for things to be better? Does agitating against Muslims help?

Not agitating, exposing. And exposing Islam because that is the root of the problem.

Just out of interest, what is your knowledge about Islam based on?

 

[Michael Folkesson]

Islam or Muslims? The Muslims through people I've met through my travels, the Iranians, Iraqi and other Muslims I've met and spent time with. The turks that I've worked for and side by side with. As for Islam, I have only read the Qur'an. I haven't studied Islamic theology.

 

[Gwyllgi]

Islam or Muslims? The Muslims through people I've met through my travels, the Iranians, Iraqi and other Muslims I've met and spent time with. The turks that I've worked for and side by side with. As for Islam, I have only read the Qur'an. I haven't studied Islamic theology.

Right, so your answer to my question regarding Islam is ………. virtually nothing.

To start with I presume you mean you have “read” a translation of the Koran which in itself opens up a can of worms.

And on another point the Koran is not to be read like a book, it is to be committed to memory and constantly recited in the mind.

That’s not being picky, it’s a very important thing as it is one of many things that justifies the assertion that Islam is, apart from anything else, a mind bending cult.

Don’t judge Islam by the few Mohammedans that you have met on a personal level.

To do so is to make a dreadful mistake.

 

[Michael Folkesson]

Well, I guess you are right. The Muslims I've met, worked and spent time weighs little against what a full blown nationalist on the internet says. Someone who has the insight to identify Scandinavia as having less of a European culture and impact on Europe than the glorious nation of Wales. You are right. I should judge Islam and Muslims based on people and aspects I have never met or heard of. Kind of like the grand historical achievements of the Welsh.

 

[Gwyllgi]

Well, I guess you are right. The Muslims I've met, worked and spent time weighs little against what a full blown nationalist on the internet says. Someone who has the insight to identify Scandinavia as having less of a European culture and impact on Europe than the glorious nation of Wales. You are right. I should judge Islam and Muslims based on people and aspects I have never met or heard of. Kind of like the grand historical achievements of the Welsh.

If you don’t understand Islam, and you plainly don’t, maybe you should judge Islam by what it directs people to do in its name.

As for Welsh achievements, how about telephony and the carbon microphone? A deal of that’s down to a Welshman, David Hughes.

In a similar vein how about the Internet? Donald Davies’s work was key to the development of practical packet switching technology.

Welsh contribution to politics has also been significant. Just look at what Aneurin Bevan achieved, not to mention David Lloyd George.

Then there’s the arts. Dylan Thomas, David Jones, R.S. Thomas, Dick Francis, and of course Roald Dahl, another Taffy by birth and so able to develop in the land of industry, art, poetry, literature, and song.

Had he been born in the land of his parents he’d have probably spent his time doing odd things to trees!

And of course, music. It’s well known that when three Welshmen get together the first thing we do is form a choir!

Wales has given a great deal to the world.

From pre Christian times our rocks have been mined for the metals, especially copper, our hills have been mined for coal and many brave Welsh miners have lost their lives doing just that.

Our slate is to found on roofs all over the world when the very best is demanded, and our sense of humour is legendry (it has to be considering who our neighbours are).

Our water quenches the thirst of many English cities (and the buggers pay less for it than we do!) and our coal fueled much of the Industrial Revolution that brought modernity to the world.

And that’s just scratching the surface.

On the other hand we’re not well known for demanding people in the lands that we’ve emigrated to should adopt Welsh traditions. What’s more our homicide bombers are there with the least active in the world (though our doctors are often to be found patching up the victims OF homicide bombers)

And when it comes to national dress our Welsh girls are so damm pretty they don’t need to wear a sack-with-a-slash over their heads.

We’ll happily eat a pork chop with anyone, though our lamb is the best in the world, but we would draw the line at hacking a creatures head off irrespective of its suffering just to satisfy the ranting of some evil old man from 1300 years ago.

Wales isn’t all that bad come to think of it. There’s a whole lot worse.

 

[Michael Folkesson]

Yes. Wales is a quaint little part of Britain. Interesting that you want to claim the works of Edison and Bell to Wales. Makes me think of the many interesting claims from people of f. Yugoslavia. Do you have pyramids as well?

 

[Gwyllgi]

LOL!

Read what I wrote. You’ve missed the point that Welshmen made key contributions, not were solely responsible! We leave that sort of nonsense to others.

As for pyramids, let’s see. We have people get involved in pyramid selling every so often, and there’s our Football league system ……..

And of course there’s THE pyramids.

The spoil heaps from the mines where the guts have been torn out of our hills and valleys to feed the furnaces in England and keep the British people warm, at least up until our mining industry was broken because the miners asked for a fair days pay for a hard days work.

Those pyramids are monuments to the dead as sure as those in Egypt.

 

[Michael Folkesson]

Oh, I am sure Welshmen have been helping out now and then, here and there.

You see, I have nothing against Wales or the Welsh. It's a beautiful country, with plenty of nice people. I know that, because I've been to Wales. But it's easy to poke and set off a nationalist with a few remarks that are true from an aspect. Cara cath yn canu ag llygoden, Dwi!

I fail to see how Islam is a threat to you and me, I fail to see how it could take over Europe and I fail to see how it threatens our way of life and values. There are extremists and fundamentalists out there, but they are few. Why should we let them guide our attitude towards the whole Muslim world? If you want to fight conflicts you need to do it together with the Muslims, not against them. The Muslims aren't going anywhere. They are here to stay. The effects of terrorism in the US and the UK is that the respective governments started to restrict the rights and privacy of people. That's not the doing of anyone else than your governments. Do you see what is slowly happening in Britain? This is changing society, not Al-Qaeda, not the Muslim family down the road. That's your own doing.

It is fairly common that people from sub-Saharan Africa believes without a doubt that the west and the US planted HIV to kill off, disintegrate and hold down the societies of Africa. There seems to be a belief in Indonesia that the US planted SARS for the same reason, aimed at Asians. There must be room for dialog, education and cooperation in this world, or not much will change for the better.

What you seem to be agitating for in disguise is a western version of Jihad. If - as you say - we have higher values, shouldn't we be better than that? You are not really helping out solving a conflict problem, you are supporting a conflict. Muslims are not sleeper agents. How in the world are Muslims supposed to integrate if they are treated like second class citizens?

The Arab nations will - in one form or another - form a Union inspired by EU. The GCC and AMU are two existing entities, and there is a proposal to turn the Arab League into such a Union. In time this will likely happen. That is not a conspiracy, and it's not a big threat by itself. People who work to create conflict are however.

The democratic movements in these countries need support and what is happening in Iran is both encouraging and horrible at the same time. These people are Muslims too. Conform or get out is not helping, burqa bans and minaret bans are not helping. It gives us less credibility to criticize other countries for how they treat people.

Sadly, nationalism and far right movements have gained strong support all over Europe, and the Muslims seem to becoming the Jews of our time. Painting ones picture of the Muslims from what one is afraid of is not representative of what Muslims are.

We can go around the issue of Islam in Europe without getting anywhere you and me. I don't care if you agree with me or not. What I don't agree with is that people with such a view of Muslims get the sole saying without anyone speaking up against it. I am a European and I don't stand for that.

To connect to the OP, making the Moscow bombings to be a proof of the Muslim mind is a poorly built Aristotle term logic. You can't go on making statements that Muslims support these kinds of actions. It's just not true.

 

[^ lynx ^]

Sadly, nationalism and far right movements have gained strong support all over Europe, and the Muslims seem to becoming the Jews of our time.

You're exaggerating. Christians are waaay more oppressed and prosecuted in the islamic world than muslims in Europe. Just look at the coptic-christians in Egypt or look at Indonesia. And I don't see any muslim as concern for them like you (and many other europeans) are about muslims in Europe.

I'm feed up of this cultural relativism.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Ignore the Muslim threat at your own peril. Again, Islam is completely alien to Europe / Western society and should be dealt with very strategically.

 

[Gwyllgi]

(But) it's easy to poke and set off a nationalist with a few remarks that are true from an aspect. Cara cath yn canu ag llygoden, Dwi!

No, you’re not playing cat and mouse, you’re showing how very little you know about so very much that’s really important (not least Welsh grammar!)

I fail to see how Islam is a threat to you and me, I fail to see how it could take over Europe and I fail to see how it threatens our way of life and values.

Then maybe you should consider the possibility that because YOU can’t or won’t see a thing doesn’t mean that others are in the same position.

Maybe also you should look around at what is being done by the Islamic activists and how they rightly use the Koran and the Hadith as justification for their evil acts and how using the Koran and the Hadith they are actually correct on that basis..

There are extremists and fundamentalists out there, but they are few.

No, that is untrue. The activists in much of Europe are still relatively few in number, but using the word “fundamentalist” shows that you still don’t understand the principles of Islam.

Let me spell it out. To be a Mohammedan you must accept and abide by The Five Pillars. You can’t pick and choose.

To be Christian you simply must accept Jesus as your personal saviour and attempt to follow his example as best you can. To be a Jew is a tad more complex but even there Judaism comes in many forms, even Messianic.

NOT SO IN ISLAM where each flavour of Islam MUST abide by The Five Pillars. No fundamentalist Islam, just Islam and the Koran and the demand to submit to its directions which actually are just the invented rules of Mohammed (allegedly, the jury is even out on THAT one).

Why should we let them guide our attitude towards the whole Muslim world?

Because they are Islamic Jihad and Jihad is an integral part of Islam in action.

If you want to fight conflicts you need to do it together with the Muslims, not against them.

The conflict is the conflict that Islam started 1300 year ago against the rest of us. It is as real today as then.

The Muslims aren't going anywhere. They are here to stay.

People may be (or may not) but that doesn’t and shouldn’t and mustn’t mean that we allow Islam to be here to stay. Did we allow Nazism to be “here to stay”? Why therefore should we allow it’s predecessor do the same?

The effects of terrorism in the US and the UK is that the respective governments started to restrict the rights and privacy of people.

That's not the doing of anyone else than your governments. Do you see what is slowly happening in Britain? This is changing society, not Al-Qaeda, not the Muslim family down the road. That's your own doing.

If it were not FOR the “Mohammedan family down the road” and the result of the age old conflict being re-started again by the Islamic activists there world BE no need for what our governments are doing.

It is fairly common that people from sub-Saharan Africa believes without a doubt that the west and the US planted HIV to kill off, disintegrate and hold down the societies of Africa. There seems to be a belief in Indonesia that the US planted SARS for the same reason, aimed at Asians. There must be room for dialog, education and cooperation in this world, or not much will change for the better.

What ever are you on about? Those beliefs were set off BY Islamic activists as part of their taqiyya where a lie is recommended in order to bring peace….. and peace to them means the domination of Islam across the whole word by whatever means.

What you seem to be agitating for in disguise is a western version of Jihad. If - as you say - we have higher values, shouldn't we be better than that?

No, We must be equal or even worse than that. Never take a knife to a knife fight. Take a damm big gun. And every ivory tower will collapse if the drains are not cleaned.

You are not really helping out solving a conflict problem, you are supporting a conflict.

Bloody right I, and those like me, are. . Just as Britain supported a conflict in two world wars, on the side of those being hurt IN the conflicts.

Muslims are not sleeper agents. How in the world are Muslims supposed to integrate if they are treated like second class citizens?

Abandon Islam, or go back to where they will NOT be second class citizens.

The Arab nations will - in one form or another - form a Union inspired by EU. The GCC and AMU are two existing entities, and there is a proposal to turn the Arab League into such a Union. In time this will likely happen. That is not a conspiracy, and it's not a big threat by itself. People who work to create conflict are however.

The democratic movements in these countries need support and what is happening in Iran is both encouraging and horrible at the same time.

Do you not understand that the meaning of “democracy” in the Islamic context is at odds with the meaning of Islam in Western context where Western principles of man made laws overrule religious demands?

There is even an Islamic Human Rights Declaration that puts Islam before humanity (See Cairo Convention on Human Rights).

These people are Muslims too. Conform or get out is not helping, burqa bans and minaret bans are not helping. It gives us less credibility to criticize other countries for how they treat people.

Burka and Mosque bans are helping a great deal. They’re sending a message, “lan astaslem”, (I will NOT submit) to the whole bloody lot of them.

Sadly, nationalism and far right movements have gained strong support all over Europe, and the Muslims seem to becoming the Jews of our time. Painting ones picture of the Muslims from what one is afraid of is not representative of what Muslims are.

Muslims the modern day Jews? Purleese!

Anti-Semitism was and remains based on myth, unjustified bigotry that started in Roman times and was used by the Roman Catholic Church at first to present a scapegoat to stop Christian people blaming the Romans for crucifying Christ, and a whole lot more unjustified nonsense.

Our feelings towards islam are based on historical fact, and a history that is as close as a matter of hours (and probably minutes) past of what people do in its name.

We can go around the issue of Islam in Europe without getting anywhere you and me. I don't care if you agree with me or not. What I don't agree with is that people with such a view of Muslims get the sole saying without anyone speaking up against it. I am a European and I don't stand for that.

Then you are part of the problem.

To connect to the OP, making the Moscow bombings to be a proof of the Muslim mind is a poorly built Aristotle term logic. You can't go on making statements that Muslims support these kinds of actions. It's just not true.

Facts speak for themselves. Were it not for the ambitions and disgusting actions of the Chechens in the past there would have been no reprisals by the Russians. Were in to for the continued demands for a Caliphate in Chechnya using violence as a means to an end there would not have been the slaughter and maiming of so many people in Russia.

In short, they started it. Now “laissez les bon temps roulez”!

 

[Maciamo]

You're exaggerating. Christians are waaay more oppressed and prosecuted in the islamic world than muslims in Europe. Just look at the coptic-christians in Egypt or look at Indonesia. And I don't see any muslim as concern for them like you (and many other europeans) are about muslims in Europe.

Although I see Michael's point if we look only at Europe, in a broader context it is true that Christians are badly discriminated against in many Middle-Eastern Muslim countries, even where Christians are a substantial minority, like in Egypt (10-20% of the population).

However the worst is not the Muslim discrimination against Christians, but against non-religious people, and especially Atheists. This is why I have no compassion for the Muslims of Europe. If they feel discriminated against, they should go to Muslim countries that will accept them, even if it isn't their home country. E.g. Moroccans could go to their holy land of Saudi Arabia ; unless the Saudi have something against their brothers in faith. :embarassed: After all many Gulf states are very rich (UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait...). If Muslim immigrants to Europe are truly economic migrants, why don't they seek employment in a society that is compatible with their faith and lifestyle ? Most won't find employment easily in Europe and will feel rejected. So why insist ? Are they afraid of living in countries ruled by Islamic law ?

 

[Michael Folkesson]

No, you’re not playing cat and mouse, you’re showing how very little you know about so very much that’s really important (not least Welsh grammar!)

Oh, is it bad grammar? Curious. I copied and pasted that from one of your previous comments. They are your words.

Your thread here and your comments show clearly that you don't care for neither the rights and equality of Muslim women nor really the well being of the Russians per se, but only see it as a global war with Islam and Muslims. You show little interest in the historical grievances that play into this attack and attribute it to universal Islamic aggression against the western civilizations.

To take the worst acts of Muslims and apply it to all Muslims is not dealing with a problem, but exaggerating it.

I can only assume that your hang up with the five pillars of Islam is about the second one Salat. Opposing disbelief are not to be read literally as strapping explosives to ones chest and blow up a train. This is being used for the purposes of extremists just as you use it for your purposes to hold up and say "this is how they are".

 

[Michael Folkesson]

Lynx

How Christians are treated outside Europe is not important for how we treat Muslims in Europe. There is no interest of quid pro quo or "they started it" in this matter. If you slap my sister I don't go slapping your sister, but deal with you. We must be guided with what is right by applying our values to all people. If not, our values are not universal in Europe. Treatment of people outside Europe can't give carte blanche for what we do here.

And I kind of doubt that you are that sympathetic to Arab Christians. I could be wrong, but I suspect they wouldn't be more welcome in Europe than Arabs in general. If that were true, East Europeans would be well welcomed in West Europe. Talking about the polish as a part of some Christian brotherhood when it suits people, and in the next seeing them as a part of an immigration problem is just being nationalistic, adhering to the doubtful ideals of the national state in our time. Looking for some kind of ethnic purity will only provide problems.

 

[Gwyllgi]

Oh, is it bad grammar? Curious. I copied and pasted that from one of your previous comments. They are your words.

It’s bad grammar because of the context in which you use it and so the sentence structure is inappropriate.

Your thread here and your comments show clearly that you don't care for neither the rights and equality of Muslim women nor really the well being of the Russians per se, but only see it as a global war with Islam and Muslims.

Now that’s a load of deliberate obfuscation or alternatively deliberate misinterpretation or maybe lack of understanding on your part of what I actually wrote.

You show little interest in the historical grievances that play into this attack and attribute it to universal Islamic aggression against the western civilizations.

What I see is a bunch of “chancers” who thought that they could pull a fast one on Russia in the aftermath of the break up of the USSR.

To take the worst acts of Muslims and apply it to all Muslims is not dealing with a problem, but exaggerating it.

Where have I done such a thing?

I can only assume that your hang up with the five pillars of Islam is about the second one Salat.

Wrong again. My “hang up“, objection would be better, is with Shahadah and their use of the horrid directions from a horrid old man to try to drag our modern world back to the environment in which Islam was invented and which is the environment in which it best thrives.

Add to that the way that Zakat is employed, especially in order to fund or otherwise support terrorism against the rest of us, or as the basis of an “infedel tax”, and then add Sawm and how so many Mohammadens and their apologists try to prevent us from going about our Daily Round for fear of causing “offence” to them.

Salat? As to which direction they point their best features towards or their desire to go worship a stone, I couldn’t give much les of a stuff.

Opposing disbelief are not to be read literally as strapping explosives to ones chest and blow up a train. This is being used for the purposes of extremists just as you use it for your purposes to hold up and say "this is how they are".

Don’t even go there. Don't start me on exposing why the filth who deliberately attack innocent civilians in the name of their so called religion do not commit suicide but rather homicide,

And why the name suicide bombers is a slur on the brave REAL suicide bombers of WW2, the kamikaze pilots, and all it will result in will be yet more exposure of the black heart of Islam.

Dammit, I’ve no affection for what the Japanese did during WW2 but you’ve got to admire their bravery, especially those guys who deliberately threw their lives away for the sake of their nation and their Emperor with no expectation of paradise as a consequence.

Their greatest hope for eternity was just to become guardian spirits for the country they loved. No expectation of luxury and excess, just continued service to their nation after death.

Those guys had balls.