Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

[Olympus Mons]

There are quite a few places that fit this description, the closest matches perhaps being the prominent mountain ranges in the arid-temperate zones. Hindu Kush, Zagros, Dinaric Alps or the Himalayas basically. It also sounds like exactly the kind of biome transhumant herders would live in.

MarkoZ....Arrrgh....Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!!! - Kidding not really upset.

that description cries shulaveri shomu in between the Caucasus, lesser Caucasus passages (Georgia) to go to Aratashen (armenia), valleys (Azerbaijan). Its all in there. And if they were ones dispersing all over...

It can also be other places I suppose. But, great read. thank you.

 

[holderlin]

He's right though - all early Indo-European speakers must have been familiar with comparatively cold winters, including North-West India.

Related to this, in one of my favorite recent papers on the PIE question Anna Dybo tries to reconstruct the topography of the Indo-European homeland. She concludes:



http://www.jolr.ru/files/(108)jlr2013-9(69-92).pdf

There are quite a few places that fit this description, the closest matches perhaps being the prominent mountain ranges in the arid-temperate zones. Hindu Kush, Zagros, Dinaric Alps or the Himalayas basically. It also sounds like exactly the kind of biome transhumant herders would live in.

My God, right about which part? I'm familiar with this paper.

 

[bicicleur 2]

He's right though - all early Indo-European speakers must have been familiar with comparatively cold winters, including North-West India.

Related to this, in one of my favorite recent papers on the PIE question Anna Dybo tries to reconstruct the topography of the Indo-European homeland. She concludes:



http://www.jolr.ru/files/(108)jlr2013-9(69-92).pdf

There are quite a few places that fit this description, the closest matches perhaps being the prominent mountain ranges in the arid-temperate zones. Hindu Kush, Zagros, Dinaric Alps or the Himalayas basically. It also sounds like exactly the kind of biome transhumant herders would live in.

How many PIE words are known?
Would it be representative for the whole vocabulary?
And when would these words have originated?
Could some of them have been inherited from older times?

 

[Dov]

I feel like I've hammered these points and similar ones millions of times on here. People who have opposing views don't seem to care about these things.

Happy new year everyone

Yes, for humans sometimes difficult to revise views.

Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree, sort of. There's no pots really until like 5000 BC, but the Red Deer Island cemetery looks similar to Kunda and Suomusjarvi cultures, and of course we now know the samples tested were EHG. They only tested 2 males, which happen to be EHG, other graves could show other admixture. Remember the Motala samples actually show some ANE, which is consistent with such a situation where we'd have long standing interactions between WHG and more ANE shifted EHG.

I understand you're saying that because the Karelia samples are EHG (R1a) and that Swiderian should be WHG (I1 or I2), and that because of this we can't relate Swiderian-> Suomusjarvi-Kunda to Dnieper-Donets, but I don't think we should be so sure of this. The cultures in the region were all very similar at this time and we see R1a EHG. This is what we know.

And you raised an interesting discussion.
Red Deer Island burial had a close bond with the culture Veret'e (north Vologda region and south Arkhangelsk region). In this culture there are Europoids burial, who have the highest average growth among all the Mesolithic population. (176cm). And Mtdna two of them U4. Items of this burial similar to the culture Kunda.



A little bit about this culture in Russian wiki:
https://translate.google.ru/transla...%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0)&edit-text=

Also interesting coincidence. Some genetic calculators show Russians with maximum proximity to Yamnaya. As far as I know, they were Kargopol_Russians (but maybe I am mistaken) which are in fact the local indigenous population, who have became speaking Slavic language. As once before they became Finno-Ugric speaking. Perhaps, they are partly autosomal descendants Veret'e culture that live in this isolated area so far.
Also, may be that Kunda and the Veret'e is WHG and EHG.

I made a map of some Mesolithic and Neolithic cultures of northeast. There may be some discrepancies in the dates and area, but in general, gives an overview.

 

[Milan.M]

Markoz, Interesting paper on the environment of IE speakers we can discuss, let me mention that Himalayas are etymologically connected to Sanskrit-hima,Latin-hiems,Slavic-zima,Greek-kheima,Baltic-ziema,denoting cold,snow,winter etc,what about to the old name of the Balkan peninsula and Balkan mountains Haemus.

 

[holderlin]

Yes, for humans sometimes difficult to revise views.



And you raised an interesting discussion.
Red Deer Island burial had a close bond with the culture Veret'e (north Vologda region and south Arkhangelsk region). In this culture there are Europoids burial, who have the highest average growth among all the Mesolithic population. (176cm). And Mtdna two of them U4. Items of this burial similar to the culture Kunda.
View attachment 8359View attachment 8360


A little bit about this culture in Russian wiki:
https://translate.google.ru/transla...%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0)&edit-text=

Also interesting coincidence. Some genetic calculators show Russians with maximum proximity to Yamnaya. As far as I know, they were Kargopol_Russians (but maybe I am mistaken) which are in fact the local indigenous population, who have became speaking Slavic language. As once before they became Finno-Ugric speaking. Perhaps, they are partly autosomal descendants Veret'e culture that live in this isolated area so far.
Also, may be that Kunda and the Veret'e is WHG and EHG.

I made a map of some Mesolithic and Neolithic cultures of northeast. There may be some discrepancies in the dates and area, but in general, gives an overview.

Yes, this is what most archaeologists maintain, generally speaking, these were all closely related cultures that seemed to culminate in the domestication of Horses with a focus on the Samara Valley. I ordered a good book on the subject, so soon my understanding will have a greater depth, breadth, and detail. Unfortunately for some of the actual papers I think you still need to speak Russian, which I do not.

I don't know if the calculators are revealing anything related here, but it's worth looking into. I would probably be more interested in what population was closest to EHG, and I think this is Estonians, which, not coincidentally is encompassed by Kunda. Thanks for the map. It prompted me to verify that my book has a section on the Veret'e Culture.

 

[halfalp]

Paleolithic haplogroups from Hellespont to India where F,G,H ( Basal Eurasian ) following ( in a symmetrical further and back migrations ) the Alpin Belt and the horizontal fauna migration of eurasia ( the same north of Pontus and Caspian was with R and Q in the eurasian steppe )n either J or R where in Iranian Plateau in paleolithic, i fought it was a resolve question by a long time, but some people needs the last Lazaridis or Mathiesen paper because they dont have reasoning....

 

[halfalp]

By the way, i think that Hindu Kush is the center of something wich going with the PIE but i dont really know what, it can be physicaly, or culturaly ( Hindu kush people lies physical traits with Caucasus, Basques, Amerindians ( if the mongoloid features going away )... And Hindu Kush feets also with some kind of central ( neither north or south, but the two road goes to rome ) Urheimat of a paleolithic pre-PIE.

 

[halfalp]

Hindu Kush seems also the only place of the world where haplogroups R1 ( xR1b / or maybe basal ? ), R2, and Q, ( but i'm not sure of the clades and the ages of mutations, ), leave together.

 

[halfalp]

Seriously you can make zèle, but you know, that everything you just said, is nothing. First of all, tocharian languages and tarim mummies as nothing to do. You just have to reasoning, how can a Centum Language ( if you still think that Satem are linguistiques inovations by Centum people, i can do nothing for you ) be on the other side of a Satem language wall, if you look at the Balkan and especially with Illyrian or Thracian languages, you gonna that when Centum and Satem language live together, thats create local dialects wich lost linguistes in their tentative to decifer languages, on the other hand, tocharian is so old, so indo-eiuropean, and so centum, that, tocharian must have live somwhere without Iranics people for fellows, but instead proto-turkic or heaven chinese dialects. ( For Berun ) Like tthe Gansu Corridor just like every ancient chinese historian just says.

 

[MOESAN]

Markoz, Interesting paper on the environment of IE speakers we can discuss, let me mention that Himalayas are etymologically connected to Sanskrit-hima,Latin-hiems,Slavic-zima,Greek-kheima,Baltic-ziema,denoting cold,snow,winter etc,what about to the old name of the Balkan peninsula and Balkan mountains Haemus.

aside the thread, your set of cognates are very interesting; Welsh gaeaf, Breton gou(i)añv : "winter" supposing *gaiam- << with *IE gh-

 

[Sile]

Seriously you can make zèle, but you know, that everything you just said, is nothing. First of all, tocharian languages and tarim mummies as nothing to do. You just have to reasoning, how can a Centum Language ( if you still think that Satem are linguistiques inovations by Centum people, i can do nothing for you ) be on the other side of a Satem language wall, if you look at the Balkan and especially with Illyrian or Thracian languages, you gonna that when Centum and Satem language live together, thats create local dialects wich lost linguistes in their tentative to decifer languages, on the other hand, tocharian is so old, so indo-eiuropean, and so centum, that, tocharian must have live somwhere without Iranics people for fellows, but instead proto-turkic or heaven chinese dialects. ( For Berun ) Like tthe Gansu Corridor just like every ancient chinese historian just says.

you cannot just lump illyrian or thracian as either centum or satem

liburnians of north-illyrian stock spoke a centum language similar to Venetic

Aestrianne ( south illyrian ) spoke a satem language

clearly ancient historians did not care about aligning language with race when they wrote their papers

 

[bicicleur 2]

Yes, this is what most archaeologists maintain, generally speaking, these were all closely related cultures that seemed to culminate in the domestication of Horses with a focus on the Samara Valley. I ordered a good book on the subject, so soon my understanding will have a greater depth, breadth, and detail. Unfortunately for some of the actual papers I think you still need to speak Russian, which I do not.

I don't know if the calculators are revealing anything related here, but it's worth looking into. I would probably be more interested in what population was closest to EHG, and I think this is Estonians, which, not coincidentally is encompassed by Kunda. Thanks for the map. It prompted me to verify that my book has a section on the Veret'e Culture.

What is Veret'e? Is there some relation to Butovo?

http://www.quartaer.eu/pdfs/2010/2010_hartz.pdf

Acording to the map in here, Red deer island is borderland between Swiderian and Butovo land.

 

[halfalp]

The Thraco-Illyrians materials, such as toponyme or tribes names is a total mess, we found some typical satem tribes names just border with centum tribes names.

 

[Sile]

The Thraco-Illyrians materials, such as toponyme or tribes names is a total mess, we found some typical satem tribes names just border with centum tribes names.

I agree

Clearly the term illyrian or thracian should be meant as a geographical term and not a ethnic or linguistic term ............Illyria is like saying scandinavian , as in an area and not a people directly

 

[holderlin]

What is Veret'e? Is there some relation to Butovo?

http://www.quartaer.eu/pdfs/2010/2010_hartz.pdf

Acording to the map in here, Red deer island is borderland between Swiderian and Butovo land.

Yes, as I understand it these are all closely related techno-complexes. From the Vistula to the Urals

I don't know where some of these cultures are supposed to start or begin, nor am I sure the naming conventions aren't degenerate. Veret'e, Butovo, and Red Deer Island ("Onega"?) look very similar. And of course we know that Red Deer Island was EHG. We also know that Samara was EHG as well. We also know that Dieper-Donets tools are firmly rooted in this complex. In the South these cultures begin to use pottery and pick up domesticated livestock from the Balkans, and likely the East Caspian or Caucuses by 6000BC.

This seems strange, but I'm also fairly certain that the physical type in some sites in modern day Ukraine, before Dnieper-Donets, is Mediterranean. So it actually looks like the balkan farmers had moved in for awhile and practiced hunting and fishing. Perhaps it was like raw frontier land compared the thousands of years of farms to the West and South. People everywhere seem to like hunting.

 

[Milan.M]

- A common word for "winter" in Indo-European, and absence or the difference for other times of the year.

In general, all the theses clearly point to the north (eastern) Europe, and exclude Anatolia, Caucasus and Middle East.

There is common words for "other" times of the year,but in ancient times there was two seasons at least in our society.
Spring;
From Proto-Slavic *vesna, from Proto-Indo-European *wésr̥ ‎(“spring”). Cognate with Lithuanian vasara, Sanskrit वसर् ‎(vasar, “morning”) and वसन्त ‎(vasantá, “spring”), Persian بهار ‎(bahâr, “spring”), Ancient Greek ἔαρ ‎(éar), Latin ver, Old Armenian գարուն ‎(garun), Old Norse vár.

“Depends which calendar but St George (celebrated on May 6th) brings summer, St Demetrius (October 26th) brings winter”.
St.George was celebrated here as spring festival,and there are probably much earlier pagan conections.

Hero slaying a dragon is another common myth among IE people,aspect shared by St.George
Deity of so called Thracian horseman

Do you think there is winter only in north Europe?

For example Krell's PIE Homeland Thesis

In support of the Kurgan steppe hypothesis, there are words for horse, cow, pig, goat, and sheep, as well as words for piglet, lamb, and cattle; words for riding, milking, wool, and possibly for breaking a horse; and words for wheel, hub, axle, and transport by vehicle. All these would support the idea of a pastoral society.

But there are also words for grain, barley, kernel, broad beans, axes, milling, grinding, sowing, reaping, gathering, plowing, and fields for plowing, which suggest an agricultural society.

In addition, missing from Gimbutas' analysis are the words for ducks, geese, cranes, salmon, and eels, which are not your typical steppes creatures, words for ships and rowing, likewise not as likely for a pastoral culture, and words for ore, gold, and silver, even though Gimbutas insists that the Kurgan people only knew copper.
Krell concludes that, while their is certainly some support in the vocabulary for the Kurgan theory, Diakonov's Balkan Theory (1985) fits far better.

 

[halfalp]

Well, if we follow Anthony idea of creation of proto-indo-europeans ( old europe farmers being in contact with bug-dniester culture ), maybe that in first instance, the proto-indo-europeans can have being farmers of y-dna G haplogroup, and by the years and the demographic changes, R1b become the new major haplogroups in Yamna. I remember once Maciamo talk about an italic-tocharian expression refeering with paint pottery, it can be a relicate of that time, when cucuteni farmers maybe has an more cultural influence, and gave the " farming society " words package than in later times, when the culture changes in east pontic steppe and north caucasus in a pastoral culture.

 

[Dov]

In support of the Kurgan steppe hypothesis, there are words for horse, cow, pig, goat, and sheep, as well as words for piglet, lamb, and cattle; words for riding, milking, wool, and possibly for breaking a horse; and words for wheel, hub, axle, and transport by vehicle. All these would support the idea of a pastoral society.

But there are also words for grain, barley, kernel, broad beans, axes, milling, grinding, sowing, reaping, gathering, plowing, and fields for plowing, which suggest an agricultural society.

In addition, missing from Gimbutas' analysis are the words for ducks, geese, cranes, salmon, and eels, which are not your typical steppes creatures, words for ships and rowing, likewise not as likely for a pastoral culture, and words for ore, gold, and silver, even though Gimbutas insists that the Kurgan people only knew copper.
Krell concludes that, while their is certainly some support in the vocabulary for the Kurgan theory, Diakonov's Balkan Theory (1985) fits far better.

We already know that at least the eastern Yamnaya not an ancestor of any Indo-Europeans. Also, they are mixed with Caucasian population.
There is no need to take all of these outdated theories as Gimbutas, Dyakonov, and so on. New data of genetics and archeology tell us about the other.

Also, there is no elks neither on Balkans, nor in Steppe (in most).
IE *(e)l-k[h]-: eng. elk, greek. άλκη, latin. alce, rus. los', ancient ger. ëlho, ëlaho, ger. Elch,ancient eng. eolh, ind. ŕśya-, ŕśa- “male antelope”
Which is the totem animal of early Indo-Europeans.
But elk and his cult is already good represented in the mesolithic Red Deer Island burials:

Already pritsipe clear that proto-proto-IE is a survived population of the end Upper Paleolithic - Mesolithic of north-east Europe, which gradually began to descend down to the south. They are also known as EHG. In such cultures (Corded-Ware, Dniepr-Don, Yamnaya) usually find the "mighty" northern cromanoid skeletons. All these cultures have one source. This is the north.

 

[Milan.M]

We already know that at least the eastern Yamnaya not an ancestor of any Indo-Europeans. Also, they are mixed with Caucasian population.
There is no need to take all of these outdated theories as Gimbutas, Dyakonov, and so on. New data of genetics and archeology tell us about the other.

Also, there is no elks neither on Balkans, nor in Steppe (in most).
IE *(e)l-k[h]-: eng. elk, greek. άλκη, latin. alce, rus. los', ancient ger. ëlho, ëlaho, ger. Elch,ancient eng. eolh, ind. ŕśya-, ŕśa- “male antelope”
Which is the totem animal of early Indo-Europeans.
But elk and his cult is already good represented in the mesolithic Red Deer Island burials:

Already pritsipe clear that proto-proto-IE is a survived population of the end Upper Paleolithic - Mesolithic of north-east Europe, which gradually began to descend down to the south. They are also known as EHG. In such cultures (Corded-Ware, Dniepr-Don, Yamnaya) usually find the "mighty" northern cromanoid skeletons. All these cultures have one source. This is the north.

I just stated different approach,not that i favor any of it,still is criticism.She is speaking about eels not elks,the snake like fish,also geese,cranes,salmon,ducks.We cant just select words that suit our theory only.Common words for ships and rowing.What theory you favor?