Dark skin consumes more energy, fair skin evolved to save energy for other organs (?)

[Maleth]

Originally Posted by Maleth
That is a generic statement. That can hold true for maybe central and Northern Europeans men but not so much in the south of Europe. Also seem to be the case the other way round.

It doesn't hold true even for central and northern Europeans. Racial mixing remains a rarity even after a significant number of migrants have landed in central and north Europe.

"Scientists looking into attractiveness in men and women suggest that men of all races are subconsciously attracted to fairer-skinned women, while women are more drawn to dark-complexioned men."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/men-women-the-secrets-of-skin-colour-796610.html

 

[Petros Houhoulis]

lol If being "civilized" includes conquering, looting, pillaging, extorting, raping, slaughtering, enslaving and subjugating in a more "organized" way, then yes, that is why Whiter people are wealthier.

That too, but be aware that the worst transgressor in history was Genghis Khan. Not that he should be excluded from the gang, he might have been "yellow" but his Mongols are most definitely whiter than 75% of whites, and since the coldest environment forces people to get more organized or perish, he is definitely the product of the same process. I simply object to the idea that a general notion of a white race instead of the byproduct of the one of the harshest environments on earth is being used to describe those people.

lol The same applies for White women, I'm afraid. "White" women, particularly Northern Europeans, are "prized" the world over for their purported "open" (read: loose) and "open-minded" (read: kinky) sexuality.

Are they? Because darker women are generally hotter in temper - just like darker men - than women. Whiter women are generally colder, but "easier" mostly because of recent cultural developments. Medieval European standards were placing a very high standard on womens' honor and Christianity was not a very sexually liberating religion. If you compare tv shows by country, you shall notice that Latin Americans are way more obsessed with women and their assets as well as their occasional wardrobe "malfunctions" than Northern European women. When was the last time you saw a tv show like this in Sweden?

Latinas have many things to teach you about dancing, and music in general.

In the Middle East, there are those who believe that White women are ripe for "fun" and "experimentation," but not fit to marry.

If we start discussing what Middle Eastern men "think", pretty soon we'll establish that they think with their lower head 90% of the time. Those folks revel in family ties and consanguinity for some peculiar reason, they are more likely to marry their first cousin than the prettiest woman in the world, just to maintain their "family links"!!!

Maybe an Arab could help you unravel the "mystery" of Arab sexual mores:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/14/opinion/sunday/the-sexual-misery-of-the-arab-world.html?_r=1

And in the US, for example, there is this culturally pervasive perception amongst non-whites that white women have a proclivity towards fellatio and other acts that "respectable" Black, Latino and Asian women shy away from.

Respectable black women? Those same black women who end up single mothers 75% of the time? You've seen Latino women on the above show, you can tune on the internet and see a few hundred such Latin tv shows where objectification of women is as much frequent as snow in Sweden. Asian women could be quite different by culture. Japanese women are even more objectified as they live in an ultra-patriarchist society, although they are not exactly hot. Philippinos are almost sex toys, Chinese women vary immensely according to latitude:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbiIu_EzuWk

Are you one of those people who negate the effects of environment and socialization in favor of genes? I certainly hope not because both matter and both influence the other.

I don't think that the phrase "virtue signalling" makes a reference to either genes or environment, but yes, I agree with your statement. Genes and environment play the most important role, and the one drives the other.

Having said that, it is no secret (or at least it shouldn't be to anyone with even a remote acquaintance with social/cultural anthropology), that all over the world, no matter the nationality, ethnicity or race, those who sit at the apex of power usually wield the most social and cultural influence--their likeness, norms, values, customs and traditions become idealized and aspirational, particularly to those seeking to integrate and advance in society.

I don't think that the Chinese ever saw the Mongols as anything but barbarians, until they overthrew them. The Greeks did never quite aspire to become Muslim either, during 4~5 centuries of oppression. So I shall disagree with your statement, might does not always awe people, especially those well established.

It is also no secret that socialization and enculturation begin as early as the nurse placing blue booties on the feet of baby boys and pink booties on baby girls while referring to them as he or she.

It does but fails to make an impact. You won't succeed to turn a strait male baby into gay or female by putting pink booties on him, or to turn a straight female into a lesbian or boy just by putting blue booties on her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97dBxYGGUGk

Pre-Western Imperialism and Colonialism, much of Asia, including the Far East (China, Japan, Korea) and the South East (India, Pakistan, etc...), already had a social/cultural affinity for lightness/whiteness because it was linked to labor/economic status--those who were poorer and worked out in the sun usually developed darker, "burnt" skin; those who were wealthy could afford to remain indoors, shielded from the sun. The later socio-cultural dominance by fair skinned Westerners factored "neatly" into their already deeply entrenched beliefs and views about skin color as it relates to the social hierarchy and "white/light" hegemony.

The fact of the matter is that lighter-skinned, "fairness" oriented, Asians, Europeans and their descendents have, at one point or another, achieved partial, significant and/or near complete (cultural-social-financial) dominance over every continent and people--should I run them all down for you? Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, the Americas and even Antarctica--Europeans have been the most successful in this regard. And even when European imperialism and colonialism came to an end, its social and cultural remnants were still felt to varying degrees in every land they had touched. Even if there was some innate human proclivity towards "fairness" to varying degrees (particularly as it relates to males seeking female mates), environment and socialization have most certainly played a crucial part in aggressively and passive-aggressively entrenching notions of white/light superiority and desirability.

Ultimately you stop short of suggesting that whiter people are more desire because they always end up at the top of the global hierarchy. This simple fact could have passed into genetics as well, although I prefer simpler explanations.

Again, why can't it be both? And that doesn't even mean that they contribute equal influence.

No, culture can change rapidly over a short period of time, even within a generation. Genes and environment tend to change much slower, although epigenetics stands somewhere in the middle.

 

[Petros Houhoulis]

"Scientists looking into attractiveness in men and women suggest that men of all races are subconsciously attracted to fairer-skinned women, while women are more drawn to dark-complexioned men."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/men-women-the-secrets-of-skin-colour-796610.html

This study is way too specific to Canada. I sincerely doubt that Tanzanian women would seek "mystery, villainy and danger", because they have already been dealt that and they aren't happy about it:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fe...ride-father-sold-12-cows-160711100933281.html

FEATURESHUMAN RIGHTS12 JULY 2016

Tales of a child bride: 'My father sold me for 12 cows'

When she was 12, Grace was abducted and then raped and beaten every day for 11 months.
by

Marc Ellison

---

So common are the practices of abduction, rape and forced marriage of girls in northern Tanzania that a single word is used to encapsulate them all: kupura. It is a word used by people from the Sukuma tribe to describe the snatching of girls in broad daylight as they walk to school; a three-syllabled euphemism that downplays their long-term physical and sexual abuse.
And yet here in the region of Shinyanga, the practice of kupura is validated by the oft-recited motto of Sukuma men: alcohol, meat and vagina.
"This slogan is in their blood and a way of life," says Revocatus Itendelebanya. "These are the three things they feel entitled to as men."
Itendelebanya, the legal and gender officer for the local NGO, Agape, says this sense of entitlement, in what is a perennially patriarchal society, also explains why passers-by don't intervene when they witness an abduction.
"When a Sukuma man is attracted to a girl he will start asking people where she lives, and what her routine is," explains Itendelebanya.
"Once he finds out these details he might wait for her near the borehole - or whatever he thinks is the best place to get that girl - and then grab her."
Kupura is so prevalent in the region that when a girl disappears, her parents will suspect what has happened. But rather than calling the police, they will seek the man out not to rescue their child, but to negotiate the dowry - or bride price - in cattle.
Cash cows
For daughters are sadly seen as a short-term investment for poor, rural households - cash cows that can boost a family's financial position at the expense of a girl's schooling and wellbeing.
Such is the value placed on a girl's head that Itendelebanya says parents will take their daughters to a witch-doctor if they are not attracting any suitors.

Grace was abducted after she refused to marry the older man to whom her father sold her [Marc Ellison/Al Jazeera]

The ensuing samba ritual involves cutting cruciform nicks into the girl's chest and hands with a razor to not only help cleanse her of her bad luck, but to make her more attractive to older men.
And if ever there was a poster child to highlight the pernicious effects of child marriage, it's Grace Masanja.
"Bitterness still fills my heart when I look at them," she says, pointing at the cows grazing at the rear of her family's compound. For Grace they are a daily reminder of how she was treated like cattle, a commodity to be bought and sold.
"But given what I went through, I sometimes wish I had been born a cow," she whispers.
Her father had bartered a dozen cattle for his daughter but, despite daily beatings with sticks and her father's belt, she still refused to marry the older man.
But a deal had been made; a dowry had been paid.
And so it was that Grace was abducted on motorbike by her betrothed early one morning - all with the complicity of her father.
That night, and every day for the next 11 months, she was raped and beaten.
She was only 12.
"That day felt like the end of everything," Grace recalls, glancing again at the cattle.
A country of contradictions
When it comes to child marriage, Tanzania was until very recently a country of contradictions.
The 1971 Marriage Act set the minimum age of marriage for girls at 15 with parental consent - but a girl of 14 could wed where judicial approval was given.
And while the 2009 Child Act did not expressly outlaw child marriage, it did define a child as a person under the age of 18, stating that a parent should "protect the child from neglect, discrimination, violence, abuse, exposure to physical and moral hazards and oppression".

---

READ MORE: Child Marriage in Bangladesh

---

This contradictory legal Venn diagram was further obfuscated by the Local Customary Law of 1963, which allowed Tanzania's many ethnic groups to adhere to their customs and traditions.
The Tanzanian government had long made noises about a constitutional review process to address these conflicting laws, but last year's presidential election campaign, in addition to a lack of consensus in community surveys, had served to stall any political momentum on the issue.
Only in July 2016 did the government finally ban child marriage outright - but will it actually make a difference?
Female genital mutilation was outlawed in Tanzania in 1998, and yet a 2010 government survey found that in remote parts of the Mara region, more than 40 percent of girls and women had been cut.
While it is true that Tanzania does not rank among the countries with the highest rates of child marriage, with four out of 10 girls being married before their 18th birthdays, it seems to be a problem that is not going away.
And this national average masks more disturbing regional trends in the vast East African country.
In the Shinyanga region, more than 59 percent of girls like Grace - some of them as young as nine - are forced into child marriages.
Police corruption
Itendelebanya believes that the actual figure is concealed by the remoteness of many rural communities, as well as widespread reports of corrupt police and court officials burying cases in return for bribes by family members.
The legal and gender officer says there have been cases of police being paid to ignore some early marriages in villages, to lose crucial evidence, and to even help forge the incriminating birth certificates of child brides.
"Police entertain corruption because they benefit from it," claims Itendelebanya. "And police see NGOs like Agape as preventing the flow of money into their pockets."
But Superintendent Pili Simon Misungwi, who heads the gender desk at the Shinyanga district police station, dismisses any claims of wrongdoing by her staff.
In 2008, the Tanzanian government requested that every police station have such a specialist unit, with trained personnel who could handle cases of gender-based violence and child abuse across the country.
"I can't deny that corruption does exist because it's mostly done in private," she says. "But I also can't say that 100 percent of all cases are delayed because of corruption."
"For example, the poverty-stricken parents of a victim may accept financial compensation from the perpetrator's family, which would lead to the adjournment of a case."
Misungwi says it's also not uncommon for a child bride's parents to scupper investigations.
"A girl's parents may be offered two, three or five cows by the husband's family to derail the case," she says. "And because life is hard for these people, they often take the money.
"The police may think the family is cooperating with them, but then when the time comes to testify they tell us the girl is sick, in another village, or even dead."

[Marc Ellison/Al Jazeera]

Misungwi stresses that her officers were hired because of their high moral standing, and then provided with the necessary training.
"And we provide people with a confidential environment where they can have a one-on-one conversation in private rooms where others cannot listen," she adds.
But what the superintendent says, and what actually happens in her absence, appear to be two different things.
Before Misungwi arrives at the station, a young mother sits in the main office as she tells a police officer about the regular sexual assaults she endures at the hands of her husband - the private rooms sit empty.
The officer takes no notes, his attention not on the mother, but on the Nigerian soap opera blasting from the television set in the corner of the room.
Other staff members sit nearby, staring into space, periodically checking their phones for text messages.
Meanwhile incidents related to child marriage have doubled over the past two years.
When staff compile a list of these they do not use the Swahili terms, instead opting for the English equivalents, to mitigate the shocking nature of the crimes.
Kubaka is replaced with rape, kulawiti is replaced with sodomy, kumpa mimba mwanafunzi is replaced with child pregnancy.
And Misungwi says it is the lack of police resources, rather than corruption, that has contributed to the prevalence of child marriage in the region.
"When the government is giving budgets to ministries like Home Affairs, they don't have a separate pot of money for the police gender desk," she says.
As a result, her unit has to rely on using one of the station's three vehicles to reach remote villages where child marriages have been reported to them - but these are often already being used for routine police business.
"And the witnesses may live very far in the villages and can't afford to come to town to do a follow-up interview," says Misungwi. "As a result we often can't reach a conclusion on a case."
The curious case of Agnes Dotto
"There can be no secrets in the villages." So says Paulo Kuyi, who is fighting the ground war against child marriage in the nearby town of Muchambi.
The 53-year-old activist acts as a primitive early warning system for the NGO Agape, which in turn tips off the local police force.
Last September, it was the sudden appearance of 16 cows in a family's compound that triggered alarm bells for Kuyi. And he knew the poor family had a 13-year-old daughter, Agnes Dotto.
"When a dowry has been paid a feast is arranged before the wedding," Kuyi explains. "The family now has cows coming into their clan and they want to celebrate and invite other villagers."
Ten days later, thanks to Kuyi's regular updates by phone, police and Agape staff raided the wedding ceremony.

---

READ MORE: 'Child marriage is real: it almost happened to me'

---

The husband-to-be was arrested and taken to the local police station in Maganzo, where he should have remained until his case went to trial.
The next day the man walked free; neither he nor Agnes has been seen since.
Kuyi says that he saw a Maganzo police officer leaving a late-night meeting with village leaders.
"These leaders were paid by Agnes' parents to help arrange the marriage," he claims. "It was because of that complicity they paid a police officer to release the perpetrator."
These are the "meanders" - as Itendelebanya euphemistically calls them - that child marriage cases take on their way to the courts.
Three months on, the police tell the legal officer that they are no closer to finding Agnes or the man.
Assistant Superintendent Meshack Sumuni says the village leaders and the girl's parents have refused to cooperate.
"And we don't have the resources to be more proactive in our investigations," he says. "The Tanzanian government provides no specific budget for gender-desk teams, which means we often rely on NGOs for assistance."
The lack of police resources is felt even more keenly here than in Shinyanga.
Roads are regularly washed out in the rainy season, the unit has no dedicated car pool of its own, and their office is bereft of furniture or computer equipment and has a leaking roof, which in the past has led to important legal documents being damaged.
"So the gender desk staff feel like they have been given this role as a punishment," says Sumuni. "So this in turn affects their motivation to chase down reports of child marriage and related cases of abuse."
Back in the village, where there can be no secrets, it is common knowledge that Kuyi is the one reporting cases of child marriage to the police.
Resentful of the potential loss of income that marrying off their daughters can generate, villagers have threatened to lock the activist in his hut and burn it down.
Kuyi says that he doesn't care; he is an old man and he has nothing left to fear.
But what worries him are what advances in technology mean for future child marriages going undetected by him.
He has heard rumours that a dowry has already been paid for Agnes' sister - but by mobile money transfer, and not cattle.
This shift from the traditional, physical form of payment means Kuyi can no longer be visually tipped off about an impending marriage.
"Many other activists are now reluctant to report cases to the police," Kuyi says. "They've been intimidated by death threats, or demoralised when they see only a few cases actually go to court."
Picking up the pieces
Only through death has Grace Masanja clawed back something resembling a life.
After physically and sexually abusing her for 11 months, her husband was killed in a motorbike accident.
Grace, now 13, was filled not with joy, but sorrow.
The man who had raped and beaten her for the better part of a year was dead - but she now has a child to take care of, and no income.

After 11 months of committing daily rapes and beatings, Grace's husband died in a motorbike accident [Marc Ellison/Al Jazeera]

Grace and her child Mathias are at her family's home, where she and her father live out an uneasy truce.
After hearing an announcement on the radio, she applied to enrol on one of Agape's vocational skills courses. Each year, the organisation provides dozens of girls with an opportunity to learn a trade so that they can become breadwinners in their own right.

Grace is now taking vocational classes [Marc Ellison/Al Jazeera]

The majority of the girls opt for tailoring classes, but others want to take the courses in welding and electrical engineering - professions that challenge the patriarchal and gendered stereotypes so ingrained in Tanzania's communities.
It is also hoped that the lure of this additional income will lessen the short-term appeal of a dowry to parents.
Grace's father, Kurwa Masanja, says that he now regrets what he did to his daughter.
"It was Sukuma tradition that forced me to have Grace married when she finished primary school," says Kurwa. "When she came back I apologised, and I hope now that we can slowly become father and daughter again.
"I cannot repeat this mistake because when Grace came back, she told us what had happened to her."
But Grace has her doubts, and fears for her four-year-old sister Birha.
"My father has only six of the cows left from my dowry," she says. "He sold the others to build a second home."
"What do you think he will do when the others have gone, and he is poor again?"

---

This research was conducted with the support of the 'International Development Reporting Fellowship' (http://www.akfc.ca/en/get-involved/reporting-fellowship), a joint programme of the Aga Khan Foundation Canada and the Canadian Association of Journalists.
Source: Al Jazeera

As you can see, the weird impact of civilization is that it makes people seek for more danger, instead of less danger, due to boredom. That can explain some very weird recent cultural traits like the popularity of rap music among whites!

Naturally, women of all species are doing their best to avoid danger, or even venturing too far away from home. Men are engaged in dangerous tasks ranging from exploration to violent crime to war.

 

[Wanderlust]

Whiter women are generally colder, but "easier" mostly because of recent cultural developments. Medieval European standards were placing a very high standard on womens' honor and Christianity was not a very sexually liberating religion. If you compare tv shows by country, you shall notice that Latin Americans are way more obsessed with women and their assets as well as their occasional wardrobe "malfunctions" than Northern European women. When was the last time you saw a tv show like this in Sweden?

Yes, the emboldened part of your comment is what I was referring to regarding Northern European women. But since the 1960s, the somewhat flighty, sexually adventurous, big breasted, platinum blonde Swede with a penchant for nudity has been etched into the cultural zeitgeist of the world...

*Ahem* ANITA EKBERG R.I.P. *Ahem*

Because of this stereotype, along with being widely perceived as ultra-independent, almost militaristic feminists hellbent on being just as "liberated" as men are, Scandinavian/Northern European women have been desirable to those seeking a no-frills, "good time"--of course, the actual truth is far more nuanced and complex. The modern Scandinavian woman may be more "open" to the possibility of casual trysts, knowing that it is her right to use her body when/as she sees fit, but she is not hyper-sexualized. However, the stereotype of the ditzy, promiscuous, nudist blonde with a silly, rise-and-fall accent persists throughout the world.

If we start discussing what Middle Eastern men "think", pretty soon we'll establish that they think with their lower head 90% of the time.

I think this applies to a lot of men--some are just socialized to mask, hide or repress it better. Swedish guys may not check out women as they walk by or make cat calls or randomly approach them on the street or at a club (unless ultra-intoxicated lol) but that doesn't mean they don't want to. It's just that we have been raised to respect not only a woman's right to space and privacy but all people's right to space and privacy.

Respectable black women? Those same black women who end up single mothers 75% of the time?

This was offensively rendered in an intellectually lazy way. For one, I was referring to those Black, Latin and Asian women who see themselves as "respectable." I was not saying that they all are--all White women certainly aren't for that matter, either. Secondly, who decides what's respectable or not? Thirdly, that 72% figure only refers to children born to women who are not married but includes both fathers who still live in the household and fathers who still have regular contact with their children. And guess what? Sweden, one of the most advanced countries in Europe and the world, with one of the highest quality of life indexes, leads Europe in couples who live together but are unmarried. Another fact: In 2013, 54.4 percent of the children were born to an unmarried mother, compared to the EU average of roughly 40 percent. My point? Let's not impugn the "respectability" of people as if to imply that their life choices are innately flawed. In the case of black women, there are several factors not having to do with promiscuity (like the mass incarceration of black men, restricted access to birth control, avoiding marriage altogether--which is a national trend) that contribute to the high rate of children born out of wedlock and living in single parent homes.

You've seen Latino women on the above show, you can tune on the internet and see a few hundred such Latin tv shows where objectification of women is as much frequent as snow in Sweden. Asian women could be quite different by culture. Japanese women are even more objectified as they live in an ultra-patriarchist society, although they are not exactly hot. Philippinos are almost sex toys, Chinese women vary immensely according to latitude:

Again, you missed my point. I was talking about minority women in the US who see themselves as "respectable," as far as their value systems, and therefore, would see white women as "less respectable" because of their stereotypical proclivity towards unconventional sex--which I didn't say was a fact, but was a stereotype. Furthermore, different cultures have different ideas of what constitutes "respectability"--what may be normal for some, may be found to be objectionable by others, and vice versa.

I don't think that the phrase "virtue signalling" makes a reference to either genes or environment,

It seemed to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you were implying that relegating skin color preference to "cultural inculcation" versus "hardwired genetic drive/imperative" was somehow an attempt by some--let me guess, the "politically correct left"--to coerce people into some higher (but 'unnatural') state of moral consciousness that eschews biases based on skin color. I agree with Angela and don't think that she was being "politically correct"; therefore, my comment was primarily concerned with showing that there is a strong socio-cultural precedent for the (seemingly) worldwide affinity for white/lightness.

I don't think that the Chinese ever saw the Mongols as anything but barbarians, until they overthrew them. The Greeks did never quite aspire to become Muslim either, during 4~5 centuries of oppression. So I shall disagree with your statement, might does not always awe people, especially those well established.It does but fails to make an impact. You won't succeed to turn a strait male baby into gay or female by putting pink booties on him, or to turn a straight female into a lesbian or boy just by putting blue booties on her.

1.) Even before the Qin Dynasty (the first Chinese Dynasty), way before the Mongols invaded, commoners who worked out in the fields were referred to as "black headed ones." The Chinese have been associating whiteness with wealth and darkness with poverty before the Mongols, did so during their stay, and most certainly continued after they left.

2.) I did say that, particularly, those seeking to integrate and advance are the ones who usually adapt and conform; I didn't say that all do, or willingly, at least. I agree that the colonized don't always love their colonizers--quite the opposite, at least initially. But some form of Stockholm Syndrome eventually takes root, where the victimized eventually begin to care for and protect their victimizers. And even if the colonizers are never fully embraced, that doesn't mean that society does not or will not orient towards them and their ways. In degrees large and small, there will be some acquiescence amongst the subjugated.

3.) Who said anything about turning babies gay or straight? My point was that from an early age, society molds and forms who we become, and even if that runs at odds with any genetic inclinations! Speaking of sexuality or gender, there are people who live horribly unhappy, unfulfilled, repressed lives just because they fear going against their dominant socialization. That crazy, self-loathing bastard in Orlando who killed all of those gay people perfectly exemplifies this--he was indoctrinated, in part, to be a vicious homophobe regardless of his sexual inclination towards men.

Ultimately you stop short of suggesting that whiter people are more desire because they always end up at the top of the global hierarchy. This simple fact could have passed into genetics as well, although I prefer simpler explanations.

Wrong--sheer luck and opportunity have been the bulk of white people's success. In every group, there will always be a few innovators who think outside the box and do things that catapults the whole group forward. As people began leaving Africa, they kept encountering environments and circumstances, over thousands of years, that forced them to adapt and innovate. Cue "Guns, Germs and Steel" and voila--world conquerors. A universal, hardwired genetic affinity for "whiteness" seems ridiculous and arbitrary in the grand scheme of things. I'm blonde, blue, and white as can be and I sure as hell don't have it!

 

[Angela]

Petros Houhoulis;486388]Why does it have to be "European"? How do you know that the "genes of beauty" that you allude to, developed first in Europe or Asia, for example?What did the Greeks congratulate again?

It has absolutely nothing to do with where certain phenotypes may have appeared. It has to do with the fact that the researchers are usually from Europe and assume that phenotypes currently more common in Europe are the most attractive in an absolute sense.

https://books.google.gr/books?id=9Z...ge&q=rome prostitutes red yellow hair&f=false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phryne#Life

I'm not going to bother going to the sources that contradict some of this, or put it into perspective. There's a limit to how much of my time I'm willing to waste. I would just say that if the people of Greece did indeed prize blonde hair more than the dark hair which the majority of them possessed, then as now, this is perhaps a rather perfect example of what happens when an invading group which, as is psychologically healthy, prizes its own phenotype, makes that phenotype a symbol of upper caste status, and then eventually the autocthonous population comes to adopt that as the standard, and comes to dislike their own previously prized looks. It's actually quite sad when you think about it.

The funny thing is watching the Romans prefer black hair until they realize that people could actually have blonde or red hair!

https://books.google.gr/books?id=In...Q6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=ovid red blonde&f=false

Oh, please. There were always fair haired people among the Romans, and not necessarily because of any "Indo-Europeans". One of the first examples of fair haired, fair skinned, blue eyed people is in a Neolithic farmer context. Don't you people from crashed anthrofora sites ever read genetics papers?

That correlates suspiciously with the general trend that whiter people tend to conquer darker people (Indo-Europeans -> Mediterraneans & Dravidians, Manchu -> Chinese, Mongols -> Chinese & Indians & Persians, Chinese -> Indo-Chinese, Europeans -> virtually everyone) and just doesn't quite work with the Muslims because the Muslim fashion trend is... hiding womens' faces, eh?

Again, please read some genetics papers. Where ever did you get the idea that the "Indo-Europeans" were all or even mostly "fair" in a modern European context, or were always fairer than the people they conquered? The Yamnaya had pigmentation like Anatolian farmers, and the Catacomb people were slightly darker yet, darker than any modern Europeans. Did you forget that? The Mongols were a bit fairer than the Han, but you don't find the Chinese panting to claim descent from them, like some Europeans. Indeed, they rather like the fact that they overthrew them. They seem to recognize the obvious, which is that in human history the pattern seems to be that we struggle to form a civilization, then the civilized core weakens for various reasons and the barbarians at the periphery invade, destroy all or most of what has been created, and the struggle to regain what has been lost has to start all over again. We waste so much time. I'm like the Chinese; I value civilization, and so I think it's a great pity that these less civilized herders perhaps helped bring down "Old Europe". Oh, and the, by comparison, less civilized pastoralists are not always lighter. Have you forgotten about the Semitic conquests of the more northern Middle East, or the later Arab invasions there, or the Moors conquering Spain, or, well, you get the pictures?

I guess this association of elite groups' phenotype with popularity surely explains why Finnish girls were the most popular slaves in the markets of Crimea eh? Not to mention the Ottoman slave raid in that obscure place called Iceland... By contrast the blacks of Africa made the most popular slaves for labor not only in the American continent, but among Muslims bordering East Africa too...The second sentence makes far more sense than the first one. Men are biologically programmed to impregnate as many women as possible. Only civilization saves us from the horrors of masculinity on the loose.Women rarely care about the physical appearance of their husbands (their lovers being another story altogether). What they prize the most is resources, and they prefer a husband who shall provide them with enough provisions for themselves and their children. Thus they do choose, but upon an entirely different basis. Other factors include smell and other stuff, presumably because smell has some relation with the immune system. Looks appear to be somewhere in the bottom of the stack, except when women are in the menstrual cycle, but as I wrote, their lovers are another category altogether.Those factors you mention could apply more to survival rates than sexual selection. People with little capacity to store fat or others with little ability to remain agile in excessive sunlight would have a hard time to survive in certain climates respectively, irrespectively if were they were among someones' sexual preferences.

My goodness, you people love that example, don't you? You don't equally love the example of the "Circassian" women who were the most prized of all and who were definitely not blondes, but West Asian. ,

Honestly, I'm often at a loss as to why certain people find certain "looks" attractive. There may be something to the idea that blonde hair, in particular, but perhaps also fair skin, are associated with "youthfulness". Given how many men are insecure about their sexuality, sexual prowess, really, it makes sense that there is a preference for a look that is associated with youth, inexperience, etc. After all, a virgin, and even more so a really young virgin, can't make any odious comparisons, or demands which can't be met, can she? By the time they figure out what's what, they can be traded for a younger model. Of course, if she's very large boned and towers over him it might rather destroy the illusion, but who knows. My experience has been rather different. I spent a good part of my married life coloring my naturally chestnut colored hair black and scrunching it madly to get it to curl because that's the look my husband preferred. There's a lot of men who agree with him, or "Latina" actresses and southern European actresses wouldn't be so popular, would they? Not long ago, wasn't Monica Bellucci considered the most beautiful woman in the world? What about Jessica Alba and Sofia Vergara, or if we're talking about SSA admixed people Halle Berry? Those kinds of "contests" are ridiculous, of course; there's lots of beautiful people in the world, and they come in lots of different varieties, but just saying.

Circassian women:
http://image.slidesharecdn.com/cauc...-in-the-19th-century-47-728.jpg?cb=1287148144

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Circassian_girl.jpg

Monica Bellucci in her prime:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFbIZNdFIYQ

In case you missed it over in Athens, the current "hottest" couple in America is Sofia Vergara and Joe Manganiello. The highest paid male model in the world for years was David Gandy. Or maybe you missed it because they're over 30. You're not fooling me, you know, with your IP in Greece; you're Greek like I'm Japanese. You sound like the typical young American who dabbles with racist groups.

I realize you probably know nothing of advertising, but I do, given I misspent two years working in that industry before I thought better of it. This is what moves products off the shelves the most as far as men are concerned. Do you think they leave their choice of models to chance?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Dav...QsAQIHQ&biw=780&bih=376#imgrc=xXxhBDtIRUjbeM:

There is an interesting attempt to confuse works of fiction with facts here... I haven't seen many whites trying to look as black in post-colonial Africa.

What? I'm talking about the psychological effects of being invaded, conquered, and subjugated for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Why do most black men tend to be poor? Who would be more dependent upon stacking provisions? A man in Africa surrounded by abundant game and fruit, or a man in Siberia who would think it hard to move out of his hut 3 out of 4 seasons in the pre-modern era?

Did you miss geography class? Most African soils, particularly the ones that used to be rain forest, are very thin and lacking in the proper nutrients for crops, and a lot of Africa is also either desert or subject to periodic terrible droughts which lead to recurring famines. Africa also has very few rivers for such a large continent, which are important not only for irrigation but for trade. The climate is also not conducive to high yield agriculture, which is a prerequisite for "civilization". Most of the major civilizations of the world developed in the temperate zones for a reason. Please take a look at a map of climate worldwide and landscape as well. Honestly, what is happening to the American education system?
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/soils/use/?cid=nrcs142p2_054024

http://www.geography.learnontheinternet.co.uk/images/worldclimate.gif

The Gypsies' customs descend from the caste system applied to them by the IndoEuropeans in India, since they are, in all probability, descendants of Dalits, they might actually constitute the longest culturally oppressed group by whites!

And the point is???

Perhaps the best explanation of why men prefer whiter women instinctively: They consider them to be younger, and thus more fertile!European - as well as otherwise - fairness is primarily a result of the "survival of the fittest" theory of Charles Darwin. Can't explain otherwise why latitude is closely correlated to pigmentation, irrespectively of race (white or yellow)

Do you know what a search engine is? Do you know how to use one? If yes, please avail yourself of ours. There are dozens and dozens of papers on the correlation of solar radiation and skin pigmentation. Please read them.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/adapt/images/map_of_skin_color_distribution.gif

Cranial cavity is somewhat related to intelligence. If women make a preference to wide cranials, then they prefer smarter children - which are evidently more prone to survival. Interesting idea!

Off topic.

Yeah, black people have features which are valuable for the equator, but less so for other climate regions. Water loss does not seem to be a problem in Scandinavia, it would appear to be more of a blessing there, if anything! Better antimicrobial defense is equally irrelevant, when did you last read about something akin to ebola or zika in colder climates. Early Europeans were so filthy they barely bothered to wash at all! The Japanese thought of them as barbarians because of their filth, and Theophanu caused something of a scandal (to them) because she dared to use utensils and insist at bathing on a daily basis! Even today the barbarians insist at eating raw meat, something only comparable to the Japanese' consumption of raw fish. Hygiene is not part of the "white" genes or original "white" culture, because it was never essential.It was a natural location. Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of the world "natural"... BTW which Virgin islands do you refer to, the British or the American? I've been to both, and I remember them to be great locations both.If you ever found a group of people intentionally hiding during their vacation, it would be a world first. Although some fools do descend upon casinos and forget the time and day they are living...I assume by now that the waiter made his best effort to turn you off, making his life less complicated in the process. The nearly dead pay better after all, as everybody in the tourist industry knows...Yes, life was a bit harder before the internet. Nowadays you can find customer reviews for everything from tourist resorts to hookers...I still can't figure out whether you were stupid or simply impervious to pain. Were you drunk that night? Most people do sense being bitten by insects...Stop right there ma'am, your hyper-nationalism is flashing red flags all over my brain by now: You refused to buy any protection for bugs, as if you expected to find some factory in the Virgin Islands producing anything, even bug sprays, now you complain because isolated islands don't have enough doctors, as if that is economically feasible. I take great offense of your disregard of small Mediterranean-style islands because of purely economic reasons!No, they certainly didn't put it in the brochure, because they assumed you'd have read Charles' Darwin theory of the "survival of the fittest". Of course white people have less resistance to insect bites since their genetic urheimat is devoid of such little creatures! Alternatively, of course, you could assume that preference for fair skin extends beyond the human race after all. Whatever makes your day... Even if you the idea to return back to the vicinity of the polar bears where your ancestors came from is acceptable, if you think so!

Not something we wouldn't suspect by empirical evidence some thousand of years now...

So jumbled and off topic there's no point in responding. Oh, insulting as well.

It turns out there are people on the internet who make a living by pointing out why black women are less popular, for all sorts of reasons...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOk3Dpv0MaU

Friends of yours, no doubt.

In some cases, it just doesn't help at all...

If you're going to post a picture of a Sub-Saharan African man, it's rather unfair to post this poor, unattractive one don't you think?

How about him? Or Djimon Hounsou? They may not be my type, but who could call them ugly?The musculature they're able to attain rather easily is quite impressive. How do you compare?

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Djimon+Hounsou+Calvin+Klein+25+Years+Underwear+vadaO9bKOf9l.jpg

Same in Greece at that time frame. My jaw dropped when I read once that fat hookers were actually prized back then!

Is this the Marvel comedy school of history? Fashions in body type change, just like other things. I'd hardly call the women of the classical Greek statues "fat". Now, if you were talking about Rubens, you'd have a point, but hey, maybe that's what the women of his place and time looked like in their maturity and he liked it. My husband would have moved to a separate room, but to each his own.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Rubens_Venus_at_a_Mirror_c1615.jpg

OK, I've had enough. The rest is just devolving into scattered, illogical, even more unsupported speculation and rehashed old stereotypes, when it isn't totally off topic.

Martin Van Buren, huh? Yes, indeed, I'm sure they spend a lot of time on Martin Van Buren in Greek schools. Are you even out of high school yet?

 

[Angela]

@ Petros
You've received an infraction for some of what was in that post, btw, and if you continue to insult people or make wildly provocative comments, you'll get another one.

Perhaps you might want to post only when not under the "influence".

As for me, I'm never under the "influence", and no one has ever accused me of being stupid, or if they did, they lived to regret it.

Before there was so much available on the internet I did occasionally make a mistake in choosing resorts. That particular one was one of the "Rock resorts"; it's Caneel Bay in the American Virgin Islands. I also didn't realize that for me personally it's important when in the tropics to spray every inch of my body with products containing pesticides, like NEET. You live and learn, thank goodness, or most of us do.

I see that they're now marketing to a different group, installing a "kid's program". I guess there weren't enough of the "newly wed and the nearly dead" to keep it full. They still don't serve dinner after 8 or so, however, so it's not exactly "jumping" at night.
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_R...l_Bay_St_John_U_S_Virgin_Islands.html#REVIEWS

I do feel sorry that you've never been so in the throes of passion that you can't imagine two people being so besotted with each other, in the early stages I will admit, that they barely leave their hotel rooms for a week at a time. If you don't adopt the "white people don't bathe" scenario you proposed, work out at the gym, work on a nice smile, and develop some "game" etc., it may yet happen.

Caneel Bay might then work out for you, or somewhere like Las Brisas in Acapulco. I haven't been there since my kids were born, but it used to be wonderful: totally private pool outside your door filled with fresh hibiscus flowers every morning...another place where you don't have to leave your room for a week. Everything was pink: complimentary jeeps, stripe down the middle of the roads, towels, you name it. Cheesy,but I didn't mind it at the time.

 

[Maleth]

This study is way too specific to Canada. I sincerely doubt that Tanzanian women would seek "mystery, villainy and danger", because they have already been dealt that and they aren't happy about it:

Petros you turned something scientific into something heavy and political. We were discussing innocent sexual attraction without the complications. You are going to global extremes from heavy pigmentation to total depigmentation which is not the case. Yes the article I posted is not 100% correct because apparently it seems that very fair guys seem also to be naturally attracted to darker womens (which could also mean Mediterranean type of women and not necessarily Nigerian or Congo where your mind uncontrollably can lead you. When one has lived in places with multi ethnicities in safe environments without some cultural conditioning, its amazing the type of attractions (even extreme) one would come across. Anyhow been on these boards long enough and came across these discussions many times that sometimes I feel its just recycled material.

 

[davef]

Petros you turned something scientific into something heavy and political. We were discussing innocent sexual attraction without the complications. You are going to global extremes from heavy pigmentation to total depigmentation which is not the case. Yes the article I posted is not 100% correct because apparently it seems that very fair guys seem also to be naturally attracted to darker womens (which could also mean Mediterranean type of women and not necessarily Nigerian or Congo where your mind uncontrollably can lead you. When one has lived in places with multi ethnicities in safe environments without some cultural conditioning, its amazing the type of attractions (even extreme) one would come across. Anyhow been on these boards long enough and came across these discussions many times that sometimes I feel its just recycled material.

Maleth, I've been on this board for 1.5 months and already this is getting tiring. I've seen plenty of full blooded south italian Americans who got my attention and I'll happily sleep and cuddle with a nice full blooded maltese girl. I don't care about how much WHG they score in some DNA test.

 

[Maleth]

Maleth, I've been on this board for 1.5 months and already this is getting tiring. I've seen plenty of full blooded south italian Americans who got my attention and I'll happily sleep and cuddle with a nice full blooded maltese girl. I don't care about how much WHG they score in some DNA test.

Feels like walking on water

 

[Maciamo]

I tend to find there are many mixed children with dark complexions when I go shopping in Auchan (French hypermarket). In Asia, very little people would consider interbreeding with Africans, and many prefer light skinned women.

When I typed Europeans marrying blacks or Asians instead of getting Europe's stats I am getting America's stats so here they are:
...

Here are some more clearly presented statistics.

Interracial marriages in the US from the New York Times

What we see here is that:

- Both White and Black men marry 3x more frequently Asian women than the other way round.
- Black men also marry Native American women 3x more frequently than the reverse, but there is no such discrepancy between Whites and Native Americans.
- Black men are twice more likely to marry White women than the other way round.
- Whites are the most likely to marry within their racial group (95% of marriages) and Native Americans the least (only 44% prefer their own kind).
- Native Americans marry Whites as often as other Native Americans, and there is no gender bias.

These trends appear to be similar in the UK, but the gender bias is less pronounced than in the US, especially for Blacks. In other words, Black Americans are considerably more likely to marry outside their racial group than Black Britons.

The interracial marriage statistics for France are more revealing as they give the detail by nationality. The data can be misleading though as some French nationals are naturalised immigrants.

We see here that the gender asymmetry can vary tremendously depending on the country of origin of the Blacks and Asians. For example, only Black men from Congo, Central Africa, Guinea, Togo, Senegal, Mauritania marry French women in greater number than the other way round. In some cases there is relative symmetry between genders (Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory Coast, Chad). For a few countries, it is actually French men who tend to marry mostly African women, including those from Cameroon, Gabon, Somalia and Madagascar (who have heavy Indonesian admixture).

For Asians countries, we see a clear rift between East and West. West and South Asian men (e.g. from Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, India) marry French women from 2 to 7 times more often than the other way round (the highest gender biases are for Turkey and Pakistan). But when it comes to East Asia, the trend is reversed, with French men marrying 3 to 14 times more East Asian women than the opposite (the higher gender bias is for Japan, with 309 Japanese women marrying French men, but only 22 Japanese men marrying French women).


Marriages between French people and foreigners represent about 15% of all marriages in France. However 28% of international marriages were with other Europeans or people of European descent, and nearly 50% with other Caucasians (mostly North Africans, but also Middle Easterners). Marriages with East or South Asians represented only 6% of international marriages (0.9% of all marriages) while those with Sub-Saharan Africans made up 16.5% of international marriages (2.5% of total).

The United Kingdom Census 2011 found that 10% of were either married or living with someone from a different ethnic group.

 

[Angela]

Thanks, Maciamo.

Some of this has to do with access, perhaps? By that I mean that more intermarriage is going to be with North Africans in France than in other places because there are a lot of them, but also there's going to be a gender bias because North African women may still be more guarded and/or married off?

Just speaking for the U.S. now, those statistics are for marriage, yes? Young white women here might have an affair with an African American man, but marriage is another issue. Also, marriage as a whole is not necessarily something that young people want, particularly the less "conservative" young people, the ones who would be more willing to break the color line. Just by observation it seems as if the number of cross-race relationships in the U.S. is higher than 5%.

 

[Angela]

Maleth, I've been on this board for 1.5 months and already this is getting tiring. I've seen plenty of full blooded south italian Americans who got my attention and I'll happily sleep and cuddle with a nice full blooded maltese girl. I don't care about how much WHG they score in some DNA test.

Make sure to wear the ketchup smeared black tee shirt and brown cargo pants and blast the music you've been posting on the "What Am I Listening To" thread from your phone, and lovely Maltese girls like the one in Maleth's video will dump their hotties in a flash and drop at your feet.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Make sure to wear the ketchup smeared black tee shirt and brown cargo pants and blast the music you've been posting on the "What Am I Listening To" thread from your phone, and lovely Maltese girls like the one in Maleth's video will dump their hotties in a flash and drop at your feet.

If I had known that's all it takes ..

 

[Maleth]

Thanks, Maciamo.

Some of this has to do with access, perhaps? By that I mean that more intermarriage is going to be with North Africans in France than in other places because there are a lot of them, but also there's going to be a gender bias because North African women may still be more guarded and/or married off?

Also I am not sure what methodology for these Censuses are used. Second and third generation North Africans examples would be considered as French, like the second and third generation Indians in UK would be British who would through cultural reasons still marry their own, but would look like a Brit example getting married to an Indian.

Just speaking for the U.S. now, those statistics are for marriage, yes? Young white women here might have an affair with an African American man, but marriage is another issue. Also, marriage as a whole is not necessarily something that young people want, particularly the less "conservative" young people, the ones who would be more willing to break the color line. Just by observation it seems as if the number of cross-race relationships in the U.S. is higher than 5%.

Cohabitation has increased dramatically also, so I believe they would not be taken into account in these type of charts

 

[Maciamo]

Thanks, Maciamo.

Some of this has to do with access, perhaps? By that I mean that more intermarriage is going to be with North Africans in France than in other places because there are a lot of them, but also there's going to be a gender bias because North African women may still be more guarded and/or married off?

Just speaking for the U.S. now, those statistics are for marriage, yes? Young white women here might have an affair with an African American man, but marriage is another issue. Also, marriage as a whole is not necessarily something that young people want, particularly the less "conservative" young people, the ones who would be more willing to break the color line. Just by observation it seems as if the number of cross-race relationships in the U.S. is higher than 5%.

I forgot to mention that the French data based on nationality can be misleading because some French nationals are in fact naturalised immigrants. I suspect that a lot of the "international" marriages between French citizens and Maghrebins in particular are actually between ethnic Maghrebins. The French press likes to report that marriage is one of the ways Maghrebins can obtain a permanent visa to France, and so those that have already been naturalised are encouraged to marry people from their village/town of origin in Morocco or Algeria to legally bring them to France.

 

[Alan]

We had this already I think, there is absolutely no way that you can sexually select for a certain trait within a number of milions that fast, even with help of founder effect/Bottle neck.

Don't you think it is too much of a coincidence that fair pigmentation is especially common in one part of the world, a part where all three main factors are given.

Genetics, environment, agricultural diet. Think about it, those with the same (very similar) set of genes and the same diet look very similar with simply variation of skin color from slightly darker in countries with higher UV radiation in the South to very light pigmentation in countries of the North with lower UV radiation. You see the exact same freakn trend in East Asia too with the only difference that their set of genes effect their pigmentation in slightly different way. Japanese are lighter pigmented than Thai.

Was there also sexual selection? Remember we have too many seperate cases of very light pigmentation throughout Eurasia that we can claim they only happened once and than there was sexual selection. This is unlikely.

 

[davef]

Make sure to wear the ketchup smeared black tee shirt and brown cargo pants and blast the music you've been posting on the "What Am I Listening To" thread from your phone, and lovely Maltese girls like the one in Maleth's video will dump their hotties in a flash and drop at your feet.

Ha! Perhaps I should not show my father's side as often. My mom had a 99 average in high school whereas my dad whacked a beehive with a bat, pushed the principals car onto the train tracks, and other escapades. He was dumped by a real prize bc his idea of a date was a trip to a local hot dog stand, and he once embarrassed himself at another date by ordering lobster and drinking out of the butter cup ( he thought it was juice). He did well in sports. I won't mention any more of his escapades.

He said my mother straightened him out and now he's in real estate.

Happily ever after.