David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Palermo Trapani]

It does show that PIE is not from Armenia. Even Wikipedia says literally on the third line at the top of the page:

"The most widely accepted proposal about the location of the Proto-Indo-European homeland is the steppe hypothesis."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_homeland



The northward migration was mainly of CHG type, not Iran_N (although this is present in a very small percentage). I also tend to rule out that PIE was brought by CHG-rich people, populations with the largest share of CHG do not even speak Indo-European. PIE cannot be from Armenia for the simple reason that for example Yamnaya and Corded Ware in the north are not descended from Areni and do not have its share of West Asian ancestry.

Target: ARM_Areni_C
Distance: 3.4176% / 0.03417649
39.6 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
21.6 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
7.6 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086
6.8 Levant_PPNC:I1699___BC_6750
4.4 Levant_PPNB:BAJ001___BC_6900
1.8 RUS_Veretye_MesoES001___BC_10761

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 5.9363% / 0.05936292
34.2 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
28.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371
25.0 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131
5.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3___BC_16086
3.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
3.4 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950

Target: Corded_Ware
Distance: 4.9219% / 0.04921941
42.2 UKR_Meso:I1763___BC_8131
24.6 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
20.2 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
10.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371
2.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212



I am of the opinion that many people do not want to accept the Steppe "hypothesis" because for some strange reason they link it to Nordicism or racism, but still...

What could Francisco in Portugal and Ram in India possibly have in common? Could it be a coincidence that they both speak Indo-European languages? Or that they both have haplogroup R1? ... and that they both have Steppe-related admixture, will that also be a coincidence?

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 0.7079% / 0.00707900 | R5P
37.0 IRL_MN:bally___BC_3181
21.8 Corded_Ware_CZE_early:KO1002.merged___BC_2583
20.0 BGR_C:I2519___BC_4287
15.6 Corded_Ware_CZE_late:STD001___BC_2550
5.6 MAR_EN:IAM.5___BC_5113

Target: Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
Distance: 2.0855% / 0.02085495 | R5P
58.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:I8728___BC_2550
20.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:I11459___BC_2749
15.2 Corded_Ware_CZE_early:VLI007.merged___BC_2789
4.6 CHE_LN:Aesch9___BC_2898
1.8 KAZ_Botai:BOT2016___BC_3446

Er Monnezza: The expansion of IE languages from the Steppe via Yamnaya and Corded Ware into Europe I think is well settled. So the Kurgan Hypothesis in this context is supported. Reich himself clearly states that in his 2018 book. But that still does not settle where the PIE is. Like I said, it could be from the Steppes but it could be from south of the Caucus mountains in Armenia. The Lazaradis et al 2016 paper on the Early Farmers clearly showed in interaction zone between the Steppes and South of the Caucuses, which indicates gene flow going both ways. Again, take a look at Figure 4 from the Lazaridis et al 2016 paper. But who went which way first? and which population passed on early PIE to which population?

I don't think those questions can be definitively answered just looking at the genomes and data we have to date. That is my only point. And again to reiterate, if the PIE is in the Steppe great. If it is in the Armenian Highlands, great again. I have no emotional ties to one region or the other.

 

[enter_tain]

Where is this god damn paper :lol:?

 

[MOESAN]

Language passing is a complicated thing:
the Y-haplo is of importance because it shows often where the military or political power was, and language goes often (not always) with it.The speed of osmosis concerning auDNA, X-DNA and mt-DNA is also of importance; a slow and light import of female genes could change nothing at the language level, when a quick and heavy one can change things (not always, too). And the cultural (+ political structure: centralization, or small spread bands) achievement of both cultures has also a big input. No absolute rule. We have only to try to weight all these aspects, to put them in perspective, and it isn't easy. So, as think some wise people here and elsewhere, we have to keep cautious in our hypothesises; in linguistic matter, the only proof is texts or at least anthroponymy and toponymy(these last ones less informative).

 

[Moja]

And again to reiterate, if the PIE is in the Steppe great. If it is in the Armenian Highlands, great again. I have no emotional ties to one region or the other.

The problem is that PIE is in none of them, David Reich is talking about the eastern wing of the Southern Arc which is Iran.

 

[eupator]

snip

First of all, I'd like to commend you for your dedication in trying to figure out the nuisances and the details for yourself and thus formulate a personal opinion, this is the mark of a true academic.

Secondly, because it pains me to see a fellow mind of a researcher sometimes do the mistakes we all do regardless of how much we spent in field research in our past, I'd like to offer you this piece of advice in very good faith.

You need to secure the validity of your methodological toolset, if it is erroneous or even worse compromised, then it's impossible to apply/test your hypotheses.

Best regards.

 

[Angela]

For ten years or more, from amateurs to academicians, we have known that CHG is actually just Iranian Neolithic like with a bit of EHG and perhaps WHG. How soon some forget.

The academicians, with new tools, see even more Iran Neo in it.

See: Wang et al

NATURE COMMUNICATIONS | https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-018-08220-8

View attachment 13491

Click on the above to enlarge.

 

[lockdownboredom]

CHG and Iran_Neo are rather different based on their distances to one another. The distance being comparable to a German and Lebanese.

Distance to:	GEO_CHG
0.18535230	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Distance to:	German
0.18189168	Lebanese_Christian

 

[Palermo Trapani]

The problem is that PIE is in none of them, David Reich is talking about the eastern wing of the Southern Arc which is Iran.

I am not quite sure he said that. All from what I saw in the abstract is that the eastern wing of the Southern Arc was responsible for the spread of Indo-Anatolian. It does not follow from that statement that the PIE is in Northern Iran nor does it suggest that it is not from Northern Iran. You are projecting your biases into what was said in the abstract. Reich in is 2018 book "Who We Are..." suggested that the PIE could potentially be in either what is modern Armenia or Northern Iran (p.120). So until Reich states the PIE is Here or There, I will wait to see what is said in the paper.

 

[Er Monnezza]

For ten years or more, from amateurs to academicians, we have known that CHG is actually just Iranian Neolithic like with a bit of EHG and perhaps WHG. How soon some forget.

"Just" is the wrong term though. CHG is too drifted to be "just" modeled as a mix of other components, and the crappy fit is proof of that (0.16 is the same distance as between the Irish and Sardinian averages).

Target: GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
Distance: 15.6796% / 0.15679641
72.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
17.2 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZKO_BON001___BC_7950
10.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino___BC_9371

Target: GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
Distance: 16.4334% / 0.16433438
80.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
14.8 UKR_Meso:I1819___BC_8708
2.4 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750
2.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG:I5236___BC_8088

 

[eupator]

CHG and Iran_Neo are rather different based on their distances to one another. The distance being comparable to a German and Lebanese.

Sorry, I've mistaken you for someone else.

 

[lockdownboredom]

Since I have personally witnessed your (high) skillset with f-stats, I would like to request you to re-iterate here your passing models that show modern Poles and other Euros having Iran_N admixture in qpAdm runs, and to re-explain to me (because I don't remember since last time we spoke) why this cannot replicated with the other PCA toolset people use.

Thanks so much in advance.

You have me mistaken for someone else. Sounds as if that person modelled Poles without Yamnaya and substituted it with EHG/Iran_N.

 

[eupator]

Sounds as if that person modelled Poles without Yamnaya and substituted it with EHG/Iran_N.

Yes, however the question refers as to why this is not replicable, not the thought process behind the substitution you refer to.

 

[Pax Augusta]

CHG and Iran_Neo are rather different based on their distances to one another. The distance being comparable to a German and Lebanese.

Distance to:	GEO_CHG
0.18535230	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Distance to:	German
0.18189168	Lebanese_Christian

The distances according to an amateur tool between two "ancestral components" and two ethnic groups is not a pertinent comparison, though.

 

[Angela]

The reason that academicians use CHG/Iran Neo so often as a descriptive is that it is so difficult to tell them apart.

The fact that Davidski can't accept/stand the reality that his adored steppe people have Iranian related ancestry is what is irrelevant.


Also, would people please STOP using FST stats for modern populations as an applicable parallel for analysis of ancient populations. It's not valid.

Some of you are like car mechanics applying a program the designers of the car handed you who think you understand the program you're using. You don't.

 

[Moja]

I am not quite sure he said that. All from what I saw in the abstract is that the eastern wing of the Southern Arc was responsible for the spread of Indo-Anatolian. It does not follow from that statement that the PIE is in Northern Iran nor does it suggest that it is not from Northern Iran. You are projecting your biases into what was said in the abstract. Reich in is 2018 book "Who We Are..." suggested that the PIE could potentially be in either what is modern Armenia or Northern Iran (p.120). So until Reich states the PIE is Here or There, I will wait to see what is said in the paper.

Modern Armenia and Northern Iran largely differ from Armenian Highlands that you said.

 

[Er Monnezza]

But that still does not settle where the PIE is. Like I said, it could be from the Steppes but it could be from south of the Caucus mountains in Armenia. The Lazaradis et al 2016 paper on the Early Farmers clearly showed in interaction zone between the Steppes and South of the Caucuses, which indicates gene flow going both ways. Again, take a look at Figure 4 from the Lazaridis et al 2016 paper. But who went which way first? and which population passed on early PIE to which population?

No one is denying that there has been a little bit of Iran_N type influence in the Steppe, whether recent or ancient, here I am denying that PIE comes from south of the Caucasus, that's all.

It should first be noted that there is an undeniable correlation between the increase in the ANE component and the spread of Indo-European languages, not only in Western Europe but also in Iran and India. How can a PIE origin south of the Caucasus make sense if this area did not have Steppe or otherwise ANE admixture, before in fact Indo-Europeans arrived there?

Difference between before Indo-Europeans and after.

South Iberia

Armenia and Azerbaijan

West Iran

India (that small percentage of ANE in the first sample is pre-Indo-European and of Central Asian HG origin)

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Modern Armenia and Northern Iran largely differ from Armenian Highlands that you said.

Again I am not going to play this game with you. Your statement is not accurate. Reich did not say the PIE is in Iran, he did not say it is not in Iran. Go read his damn book from 2018. He said it is plausible that the PIE homeland is either in what is modern Armenia or Iran. The eastern wing of the Southern Arc only related to where the spread of Indo-Anatolian came from. So maybe the Armenian Highlands is not the exact spot if PIE is from Armenia, maybe it is somewhere else in Armenia or maybe it is in Northern Iran.

So let me be as clear as I can be without getting into trouble with the Mods "I Don't give a bleep where the PIE is" if it is the Steppes, great, if it is south of the Caucuses and is in what is modern Armenia, great, if it is in what is modern Northern Iran, great again. I have no emotional attachment to where the PIE is.

 

[Anfänger]

The reason that academicians use CHG/Iran Neo so often as a descriptive is that it is so difficult to tell them apart.

The fact that Davidski can't accept/stand the reality that his adored steppe people have Iranian related ancestry is what is irrelevant.


Also, would people please STOP using FST stats for modern populations as an applicable parallel for analysis of ancient populations. It's not valid.

Some of you are like car mechanics applying a program the designers of the car handed you who think you understand the program you're using. You don't.

They are not even using FST stats but the distance option in Vahaduo with G25 coordinates. We all know that Davidski´s G25 has many flaws and he is regularly changing the coordinates. We don't even know the ancestral components behind G25, so not a good tool at all.

It's pretty clear now that CHG is just Iran_N with EHG and a good amount of what was left of Dzudzuana. For comparison see here the admixture chart from Allentoft et al. 2022 preprint:



I also find interesting that Anatolia_N has minor Iran_N, kinda proofs Pattersons observation that Iran_N entered Anatolia before the Neolithic Revolution.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Er Monnezza: Re post 876. I have a different interpretation of the results you are presenting for the those ancient Iberian samples. What that shows is that some population moved from the Steppes into Western Europe and spread IE languages. The ANE+CHG is plausible model capturing Yamnaya genomes (maybe Corded Ware) which is consistent with the Kurgan hypothesis that both of these groups spread IE languages from the Steppe into Europe. I am not doubting that at all as it is well documented in many studies conducted by all the leading scholars that were published in all the major journals, etc.

The Armenian samples and analysis that you are showing is consistent with the Lazaradis et al 2016 paper that I cited earlier. It documents, as you do in your model, ancestry from the Steppes coming south into Armenia. However, it also documents CHG/Iran Neolithic going North of the Caucuses into the Steppes. Your from Italy so think of the Autostrade(Interstate in USA), they go both ways correct. The Gene flow went both ways South to North of the Caucus mountains and North to South of the Caucus mountains. Both areas spoke IE languages, we agree on that.

What is the research question that is still not definitively settled is which area was the homeland for PIE. You favor North of the Steppes, you may be proven correct. Some favor south of the Steppes in either modern Armenia or Northern Iran., they may be correct.

The new Reich paper may provide more evidence to clarify where exactly the PIE homeland is. That is what the abstract suggests.

 

[matadworf]

They are not even using FST stats but the distance option in Vahaduo with G25 coordinates. We all know that Davidski´s G25 has many flaws and he is regularly changing the coordinates. We don't even know the ancestral components behind G25, so not a good tool at all.

It's pretty clear now that CHG is just Iran_N with EHG and a good amount of what was left of Dzudzuana. For comparison see here the admixture chart from Allentoft et al. 2022 preprint:

View attachment 13492

I also find interesting that Anatolia_N has minor Iran_N, kinda proofs Pattersons observation that Iran_N entered Anatolia before the Neolithic Revolution.

I completely get the flaws with G25 and maybe this guy Davidski has an agenda but here's my thing as someone interested in their own personal genetic history. At least with G25 I can compare myself (to some degree) with other Greeks from my region (Peloponnese), Thessaly, Macedonia and Albania (I'm a quarter Arvanite) by looking at these ancestral components like Anatolian Barcin, Yamnaya, EHG, Iran Neolithic, etc. My numbers honestly aren't that far off from many of these scientific studies on modern Greek and Italilan populations. With gedmatch I had no clue what half of the ancient (or whatever they were) components even meant; i.e. East Med, Red Sea, Atlantic, etc. I wanted a better sense of how I compared to ancient Greek samples as well. So yes G25 may be flawed but can someone give me a better option as a lay person (not someone necessarily engrossed with paleogenetics) to G25? Maybe I should be hiring someone like Razib Khan to analyze my results