dna in the British isles

[adamo]

Yes that's correct, Scottish have a lot of R-L21, the Irish variety, they are more Irish subclade than the English they're more "insular Celtic" if you will, as you said more "Celtic". But they also do have the Germanic S-21 at much lower levels unlike men from Ireland who barely have S-21 and are dominantly L-21. English have about the same of the Germanic S-21 Clade found in highest frequencies in Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Denmark, England and such and also R-L21. But, especially on the west coast of England, they also have present of the L-21 Irish Clade. Both subgroups are present in both countries , just the English in total have more S-21 than scots while the scots have more L-21. Look up maps of haplogroup R1b subclades on this very website provided by what seems to me to be an information god, a user called maciamo. Or even google it and you'll find photos of r1b M269 subclades such as R-L21, R-S21 and R-S28 to see which countries have highest frequencies of which subclades! : ) but to answer the question yes, Scottish are more predominantly L-21' English are a 50-50 R-S21and R-L21 if we exclude other rarer but still found subgroups, these are the predominant Anglo ones.

 

[nordicwarrior]

...I try to "focuse" on every source of knowledge: classical anthropology, genetic, linguistic and history - and I red old books; not only fresh surveys; ...

Yes you do and I have learned very much from your writings. There is a bit of a language barrier between us, but that makes me research/review your ideas more slowly which is usually time well-spent.

 

[adamo]

I really like MOESAN's way of doing things. But one must realize that within the homo sapien sapien branch of hominids anthropology can sometimes be incorrect or not precise enough such as claiming red hair men is all in the same subgroup or race of caucasoid men, vague conclusions, language families are no clear link between saying both linguistically similar groups are of the same genetics , considering things such as the victorious cultures influence over the defeated, for example Latin language in Romania because of the Roman Empire in a nation that is significantly genetically diverse from the original modern day Italians. ( original Romanians where referred to as Dacians). And even history, at times, is no good indicator of genetics because there are many exceptions to the rule, for example the I2a Ostrogoths passed through and set up the ostrogothic kingdom in Italy but barely, if even, genetically affected it. The Huns moved into Europe but there's literally almost no Y-DNA C and Q in Europe which would be their genetic marker under Attila the Hun. One must use excellent judgement when it comes to history for example yes, modern day Iraqis are very representative of their ancient Mesopotamian ( Sumerian, Babylonian, Akkadian) roots still harbouring much J2 and even J1 today. Movements of armies/people's didn't always affect/modify the genetic structures of nations they arrived in even in places where some invading groups stayed for hundreds of years....but genetics is very frequently a clear indicator of population affinities tat when further analyzed can yield detailed results. With dating techniques and the help of global hotspots for the particular haplogroup and migrational maps with links to prior haplogroups suggesting how this hg got there, or can even correctly estimate where a certain haplogroup first originated

 

[Jackson]

Yes that's correct, Scottish have a lot of R-L21, the Irish variety, they are more Irish subclade than the English they're more "insular Celtic" if you will, as you said more "Celtic". But they also do have the Germanic S-21 at much lower levels unlike men from Ireland who barely have S-21 and are dominantly L-21. English have about the same of the Germanic S-21 Clade found in highest frequencies in Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Denmark, England and such and also R-L21. But, especially on the west coast of England, they also have present of the L-21 Irish Clade. Both subgroups are present in both countries , just the English in total have more S-21 than scots while the scots have more L-21. Look up maps of haplogroup R1b subclades on this very website provided by what seems to me to be an information god, a user called maciamo. Or even google it and you'll find photos of r1b M269 subclades such as R-L21, R-S21 and R-S28 to see which countries have highest frequencies of which subclades! : ) but to answer the question yes, Scottish are more predominantly L-21' English are a 50-50 R-S21and R-L21 if we exclude other rarer but still found subgroups, these are the predominant Anglo ones.

A good analysis, although the types of R1b vary a fair bit within England, for example in eastern England L21 is around 13-16% and R1b-U106 around 25%, while L21 is more like 30-40%+ in western England.

 

[adamo]

Yes that is correct thank you for the minor correction, very good extra details : )

 

[Balder]

Probably the largest percentage of I1 can be attributed to the Anglo Saxon migrations, and to a lesser extent the Norman invasions. There was more Scandinavian settlement
in Scotland I think, so attributing the majority of I1 in England to the Norse seems incorrect.

The Jutes and (to a certain extent the Angles) of whom had already moved centuries earlier were pretty much of the same stock of many Danish Vikings, centuries later. Also, some Danish Vikings in Britain were from what is now southern Sweden.

 

[adamo]

Yeah but Denmark is 35-40% haplogroup I1a so I think its very safe to assume that some of those Danish men had Scandinavian I1a and brought it over to England along with R1b u106. Unless, a less likely theory to me considering I1a is only like 15-20% of English men, as I1a was in north Germany one branch split off continuing to southern Scandinavia while the other already began heading towards England but I doubt that.

 

[nordicwarrior]

The Jutes and (to a certain extent the Angles) of whom had already moved centuries earlier were pretty much of the same stock of many Danish Vikings, centuries later. Also, some Danish Vikings in Britain were from what is now southern Sweden.

Balder I agree with everything you said. One minor little detail though... on the map it shows everyone sailing from the West coast of Jutland. I think they would have left from sheltered ports like Hedeby on the East side and then sailed up and over Jutland. Especially the Angles.

 

[Balder]

Balder I agree with everything you said. One minor little detail though... on the map it shows everyone sailing from the West coast of Jutland. I think they would have left from sheltered ports like Hedeby on the East side and then sailed up and over Jutland. Especially the Angles.

Perhaps. I do not know, I have the impression that a bulk of them were coastal folks. The Frisians. We must not ignore them. They were a part important of that group of invaders, no other modern Germanic language has more similarity with the English than the Frisian.

Early historians described the 5th century continental migration to England as Frisian, while later historians chronicled it as Anglo-Saxon.

The Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Frisians and (the not-so-remembered Chauci) were all thought to be closely-related and largely indigenous Germanic populations from Jutland and Schleswig-Holstein plains. Their population would have had significant indigenous Haplogroup I1 components.

After all, I1 in Britain is in no way connected to Viking expansion there. It had already arrived centuries before.

 

[Balder]

On the Chauci:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauci

The Chauci were one of the most prominent early Germanic sea raiders. They are probable participants in the Germanic flotilla that was destroyed by Drusus in 12 BC.

They were raiding the coasts of Roman Belgica in AD 41, long before they participated in further raids of the same coasts under Gannascus in AD 47.

It is likely that their raiding was endemic over the years, as the few surviving accounts probably do not reflect all occurrences.

Apparently they were a kind of 'pre-Vikings'. One of the first Germanic confederations to engage in long distance navigation.

 

[Jackson]

Balder I agree with everything you said. One minor little detail though... on the map it shows everyone sailing from the West coast of Jutland. I think they would have left from sheltered ports like Hedeby on the East side and then sailed up and over Jutland. Especially the Angles.

And also i think there is a good amount of evidence for suggesting that a fair amount of the immigration came from all along the north-sea shore in what is now northern Germany and the Netherlands, and perhaps more inland too. Place-names tie us to North-west Germany and the Netherlands better than they do to the Jutland peninsula, although i think it is sensible to assume there was a large amount of immigration from there. Also R1b-U106 in Eastern and south-eastern England is higher than it is in Denmark, but lower than it is in the Netherlands, so it is almost a requirement that a substantial proportion of the immigration in these areas must have come from there in order to explain that away.

Also we have to remember that Bede most likely simplified the situation somewhat, and that archaeologically it looks relatively unorganised in the early days, so refugees and colonisers from along the north-sea coast and somewhat inland would explain the R1b situation and the linguistic situation.

Just for interests sake, i found these videos of local people from Friesland, and also some of regional low German. Sounds very familiar, the way they speak mainly though. Also included one video about the black country dialect, first two sound very similar:

 

[Jackson]

 

[Balder]

And also i think there is a good amount of evidence for suggesting that a fair amount of the immigration came from all along the north-sea shore in what is now northern Germany and the Netherlands, and perhaps more inland too.And also i think there is a good amount of evidence for suggesting that a fair amount of the immigration came from all along the north-sea shore in what is now northern Germany and the Netherlands, and perhaps more inland too. Place-names tie us to North-west Germany and the Netherlands better than they do to the Jutland peninsula, although i think it is sensible to assume there was a large amount of immigration from there. Also R1b-U106 in Eastern and south-eastern England is higher than it is in Denmark, but lower than it is in the Netherlands, so it is almost a requirement that a substantial proportion of the immigration in these areas must have come from there in order to explain that away.

I do not know, nor am I an expert. Perhaps the explanation of greater presence of R1b-U106 balancing the equation has to do with the 'Belgae' (mercenaires/immigrants) invited by the Romans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae#Britain

 

[Jackson]

Perhaps the explanation has to do with the first Belgae mercenaires/immigrants invited by the Romans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae#Britain

In that case subsequent invasions from Denmark will have lowered the U106 in these areas, and seeing as they typically have around 25% R1b-U106, the Belgae must have had a minimum of around 30-35%+, which is only comparable in the Dutch and Frisians. However, i think you are right to bring up the Belgae, as POBI showed that in lowland Britain (and especially in Cornwall) about half the 'Celtic' DNA there is French-like, rather than Irish-like, and the Belgae most likely played a significant part in that although it is probably older than them too. Also P312* and U152 are higher in south-east England, and although a very small amount of U152 and a smallish amount of P312* likely came from Scandinavia, i think the bulk of that, or at least a large part, is due to this continental admixture. L21 sits at around 13-16% or so in South-east and East England, which is only a bit higher than in Denmark and Norway, however going back to the Belgae. I think Normandy now is probably a fairly close estimate to what south-east Britain would have been like in the immediate post-Roman period, although we have to bear in mind Normandy has had a small amount of Danish settlement, but it has around 8% R1b-U106, and much higher P312* and U152, and reasonable levels of L21. I would have thought that U106 would not have exceeded 10% maximum, and was probably closer to 5% in south-east Britain, and P312, U152 would have made up about one half of the rest of the R1b, and L21 the other half. It would certainly explain why L21 is so much lower in eastern England. And also factor in it has probably increased by some amount over the last 1500 years, as we have had more contact with the west of England (and Britain) than the continent generally speaking.

 

[adamo]

I agree with Jackson that some if not most of the U-106 must have arrived via holland also as this is literally the nation with the highest u-106 on a national levels and its just across from England divided by Atlantic. But I disagree with the Belgae having brought u106 to southern England since the Belgic Belgae as the Belgian remi tribe where almost certainly high in u152 nor do I think any u152 came from Scandinavia to England, at all. At all.

 

[Jackson]

I agree with Jackson that some if not most of the U-106 must have arrived via holland also as this is literally the nation with the highest u-106 on a national levels and its just across from England divided by Atlantic. But I disagree with the Belgae having brought u106 to southern England since the Belgic Belgae as the Belgian remi tribe where almost certainly high in u152 nor do I think any u152 came from Scandinavia to England, at all. At all.

I agree on all points, i only kept the possibility for U152 open because we can't disprove it as far as i know, although i'd bet that almost all of the U152 there got there in more recent time, or the vast majority of it at least.

 

[adamo]

Other than that minor detail looks to me like a perfect elaboration : )

 

[nordicwarrior]

We can't forget the Danes (Dane Law) which would have been considered Vikings, albiet from Jutland and not Norway. Do you find there is an identifiable accent or speech pattern in what was considered the Danelaw territory Jackson?

By the way those videos are greatly appreciated-- definitely a language linkage between those two regions.

And the Chauci are one of my favorite "old-school" tribes that seem to get lost in the mix. Nice to give them some credit Balder.

 

[spruithean]

We can't forget the Danes (Dane Law) which would have been considered Vikings, albiet from Jutland and not Norway. Do you find there is an identifiable accent or speech pattern in what was considered the Danelaw territory Jackson?

This video features a lot of the Norse names in Northern England.

The Danes definitely should be considered. The Anglo-Saxons called the northmen "Danes", the Danes still spoke an Old Norse language at the time.

By the way those videos are greatly appreciated-- definitely a language linkage between those two regions.

And the Chauci are one of my favorite "old-school" tribes that seem to get lost in the mix. Nice to give them some credit Balder.

Those videos are interesting.

The Chauci are indeed an interesting tribe.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Spruithean, that video was so chock full of goodness I'm going to have to watch it about three more times to absorb everything! Nice find.