Do Italians look more like Spaniards/Portuguese, or Greeks?

[Carlitos]

Wanting to continually relate to Spain or Portugal to North Africa, it seems an exercise in pure style of the nineteenth century central European fascist, had been a Frenchman would understand, but it is surprising that an Italian attempt to dispose of Spain thus .

Think my friend to tell a Spanish that is an offense and not offended by racist issues but rather because it is an attack against one of the oldest countries in Europe with a vast history and although we have had contact with different ethnic or Spain cultures attribute to a blend with North Africa is simply an attempt of provocation and a lie as big as a piano is to take to Spain and their idiosyncrasies, are perhaps Europe's plans to sell Spain to Islam.

 

[Knovas]

It's obvious that Atlantic genetics are not noise for Iberians, but if somebody still doubt it, here is the last spreadsheet from Eurogenes: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=tJLqbDzmPYCFL1L4pX1tuPw&authkey=COi9zZII#gid=0

This are Intra-European analysis for ALL Europeans joining the project right now. Make your conlusions.

About the African affinity, it's true that something is usually detected, but at very low frequencies and not in all cases. You are free to think what you want, but taking Iberians as Africans is quite stupid.

 

[iapetoc]

Wanting to continually relate to Spain or Portugal to North Africa, it seems an exercise in pure style of the nineteenth century central European fascist, had been a Frenchman would understand, but it is surprising that an Italian attempt to dispose of Spain thus .

Think my friend to tell a Spanish that is an offense and not offended by racist issues but rather because it is an attack against one of the oldest countries in Europe with a vast history and although we have had contact with different ethnic or Spain cultures attribute to a blend with North Africa is simply an attempt of provocation and a lie as big as a piano is to take to Spain and their idiosyncrasies, are perhaps Europe's plans to sell Spain to Islam.

nope
I hear about a % of Brazilians moved to portugal
probably same with Latino-Americans
Spain is not Afro-arabic is Indian American

Look at lionel messi
and ronaldo (cristiiano??)

typical spain and portoquese :grin:

while french look like more Netherlands

And germans more Russians

I think he is chinese don't you agree?

(just kidding)


well the most typical Italian NApolitano

I Think an Italian God FROM NAPOLI

At least he has his own temple

 

[Carlitos]

At this rate it will, the Iberians will cease to exist, there is even a small town in Catalonia that has 103 different ethnic groups and in the Catalan public pools have hired social mediators to intercede when a Muslim or a Serb splashed when a Romanian child asks a child to another Bolivian ahogadilla I have not seen most ridiculous thing that these mediators in addition to public pools and 10 mediators only one is Spanish, this is the last straw.

Turning to another subject, I suspect that Europe will sell Spain to Islam, they are tightening immigration laws and deportations in many European countries, it is likely that the plan is that all Muslim immigrants currently living in Europe to be sent to Spain to added to the already existing few decades have increased in number to have power and decision making Spain a country like Egypt, Lebanon etc. Why Europe will deliver Spain to Islam? Have to know that as these plans do not go well, we have experience in the field, is Spain's tribute to Islam so that you have the rich Europe hundreds of years of peace?

PS: It makes me round the head, The Betrayal of Europe to Spain handing it to Islam.

 

[iapetoc]

At this rate it will, the Iberians will cease to exist, there is even a small town in Catalonia that has 103 different ethnic groups and in the Catalan public pools have hired social mediators to intercede when a Muslim or a Serb splashed when a Romanian child asks a child to another Bolivian ahogadilla I have not seen most ridiculous thing that these mediators in addition to public pools and 10 mediators only one is Spanish, this is the last straw.

Turning to another subject, I suspect that Europe will sell Spain to Islam, they are tightening immigration laws and deportations in many European countries, it is likely that the plan is that all Muslim immigrants currently living in Europe to be sent to Spain to added to the already existing few decades have increased in number to have power and decision making Spain a country like Egypt, Lebanon etc. Why Europe will deliver Spain to Islam? Have to know that as these plans do not go well, we have experience in the field, is Spain's tribute to Islam so that you have the rich Europe hundreds of years of peace?

PS: It makes me round the head, The Betrayal of Europe to Spain handing it to Islam.

I dont know

in 20 years greece change a lot after the Euro
I believe that if we leave europe our problems will solved,
probably all these will leave to rich north
I hear about numbers like 40% in Netherlands but is another thread,

I believe in few years the only non muslim areas will be south America

 

[Carlitos]

^^
Sometimes I think so.

 

[Ferreira]

Carlitos, sorry if this bothers you, but you're not being objective. There is a small genetic heritage of northern Africa origin between us, the Spaniards (I'm from Galicia, NW Spain). What is the problem with it? For me, none. Approximately 5% of the Spanish population has haplogroup E1b1b1b1 (E-M81). It is most common in the west of the Iberian Peninsula. North African origin is uncontested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

As for the question, as spanish men who has visited Italy a lot of times (7 times I think it's a big number) I can say that there is an Italian tupical who is neither Greek nor Spanish, but rather blend of Italian and Central Europe. Examples would be Valentino Rossi, Stefano Casiraghi (also his son Andrea) or Piero Righetto (Spanish Big Brother).

Piero Righetto

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[edao]

Carlitos, sorry if this bothers you, but you're not being objective. There is a small genetic heritage of northern Africa origin between us, the Spaniards (I'm from Galicia, NW Spain). What is the problem with it? For me, none.

Well said! Its obvious if you border up to another country there will inevitably be some genetic overlap. Everybody wants to be someone else, the northern europeans wants to look darker more tanned like southern europeans. The southern europeans want to be more fair, to prove they are blue eyed with blonde haired.:25:

<JOKE>By the way how much do you think Europe will get for selling Spain to Islam, would it be enough to cover the Greek debt?:grin:</JOKE>

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

As mentioned previously, the only DNA percentages that count phenotypically are AUTOSOMAL. Haplogroups only provide ancient migration clues. North African autosomal frequencies for Spaniards and Portuguese are very low, 2-3% for the former and ~5% for the latter. Spaniards and Portuguese autosomally cluster primarily with the French and Northern Italians (see the ongoing DODECAD and Eurogenes research) and are not close at all to North Africans. Even predominantly eastern Mediterranean populations such as Greeks and Southern Italians do not cluster with N. Africans.

 

[Ferreira]

Well said! Its obvious if you border up to another country there will inevitably be some genetic overlap. Everybody wants to be someone else, the northern europeans wants to look darker more tanned like southern europeans. The southern europeans want to be more fair, to prove they are blue eyed with blonde haired.:25:

<JOKE>By the way how much do you think Europe will get for selling Spain to Islam, would it be enough to cover the Greek debt?:grin:</JOKE>

For some of my compatriots to have Berber heritage is something terrible. Personally racial debate does not interest me. For me it is much more important education than race. Example, Japan is a wonderful country, I like much more than England (sorry if this will cause disappointment).
On the subject of the haplogroups, is scientifically proven that some of the Spanish population has a North African origin, how could it be otherwise after 8 centuries of Muslim presence in Spain as chiefs of the territory?
Naturally some of my countrymen can not stand and try to deny it, but scientific proof is definitive.


E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), formerly E1b1b1b, E3b1b, and E3b2, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago. This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt. Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle and other Berber groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber marker".

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula, where unlike in the rest of Europe it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 10% in Western Andalusia and Northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria. The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45) to 41% (23/56).[2] An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).

The pasiegos are a group with a differentiated culture in northern Spain. It was suspected that they were descendants of Muslim people who were given a territory in a sparsely populated valley in Cantabria (Northern Spain). The genetic study has confirmed that.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Genetic research shows that most E-M81 found in Iberia did not result from Muslim invasions but from Mesolithic and Neolithic migrations. The Muslim occupation force (they were not settlers like the Celtic and Germanic tribes) in Iberia was quite minor as was its contribution to the Iberian genome.

 

[Ferreira]

Well said! Its obvious if you border up to another country there will inevitably be some genetic overlap. Everybody wants to be someone else, the northern europeans wants to look darker more tanned like southern europeans. The southern europeans want to be more fair, to prove they are blue eyed with blonde haired.:25:

<JOKE>By the way how much do you think Europe will get for selling Spain to Islam, would it be enough to cover the Greek debt?:grin:</JOKE>

For some of my compatriots to have Berber heritage is something terrible. Personally racial debate does not interest me. For me it is much more important education than race. Example, Japan is a wonderful country, I like much more than England (sorry if this will cause disappointment).
On the subject of the haplogroups, is scientifically proven that some of the Spanish population has a North African origin, how could it be otherwise after 8 centuries of Muslim presence in Spain as chiefs of the territory?
Naturally some of my countrymen can not stand and try to deny it, but scientific proof is definitive.


E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), formerly E1b1b1b, E3b1b, and E3b2, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago. This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt. Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle and other Berber groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber marker".

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula, where unlike in the rest of Europe it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 10% in Western Andalusia and Northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria. The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45) to 41% (23/56).[2] An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).

The pasiegos are a group with a differentiated culture in northern Spain. It was suspected that they were descendants of Muslim people who were given a territory in a sparsely populated valley in Cantabria (Northern Spain). The genetic study has confirmed that.

 

[Ferreira]

There are a lot of Spanish people who could pass for people of Morocco and Algeria, and vice versa.
Examples: Maria del Monte, singer

Luis Rollan, television presenter


I'm not talking about gypsy population, which also form part of the Spanish population. Example: Diego el Cigala, singer.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

@Ferreira

Look, I've lived and travelled extensively in Spain and the examples you have posted are very atypical for the mainland - Gypsies should not be counted as they are not indigenous to Iberia. You will find a percentage in the Canary Islands that resemble the types you presented but many Canarians have a heritage far different than most Spaniards. Are you sure you're Galician?:wary2:

 

[Ferreira]

Yes, I know where I was born. If you want to know where exactly: Ourense . Gallegos (Galicians) are a little lighter hair and eyes than other inhabitants of Spain, but we are much less than the French, as I have seen in my two trips to France.

Gypsies are not of European origin, it is true. But what changes that? Now they are Spaniards, and they have been so for centuries.
Only third picture is gipsy. First and second picture are from Andalucia, not Canary Islands. There are hundred of thousands as Maria del Monte and Luis Rollan in Spain.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

No need to repeat. Once again, haplogroup frequencies DO NOT determine phenotype, only autosomal DNA does. Y-haplogroup E3B is found at higher levels in a number of Balkan, Eastern Mediteranean and Central European countries compared to Iberia, and the great majority of people from these regions hardly resemble N. Africans.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

All are atypical for Spain and Iberia as a whole.

 

[Ferreira]

Within the E haplogroup in Europe there are 2 subclasses (subclade), one is the E-M81 which is located in Spain and Portugal, which is of North African origin, and the other is the E-M78 which is found in Balkans to a lesser extent, in Central Europe, which arrived in Europe from the Middle East through Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

People can lie, but Genetic don't.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Within the E haplogroup in Europe there are 2 subclasses, one is the E-M81 which is located in Spain and Portugal, which is of North African origin, and the other is the E-M78 which is found in Balkans to a lesser extent, in Central Europe, which arrived in Europe from the Middle East through Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

It doesn't matter where it came from. The majority of M-81 very likely resulted from very ancient migrations. To repeat, haplogroups DO NOT determine phenotypes, only autosomal DNA does. Iberians show an overwhelming European (particularly Atlantic European) component in all autosomal DNA research. Reference the Eurogenes project. Yes, you are correct, genetics don't lie (provided the research is properly conducted).

 

[Ferreira]

Within the E haplogroup in Europe there are 2 subclasses, one is the E-M81 which is located in Spain and Portugal, which is of North African origin, and the other is the E-M78 which is found in Balkans to a lesser extent, in Central Europe, which arrived in Europe from the Middle East through Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

It doesn't matter where it came from. The majority of M-81 very likely resulted from very ancient migrations. To repeat, haplogroups DO NOT determine phenotypes, only autosomal DNA does. Iberians show an overwhelming European (particularly Atlantic European) component in all autosomal DNA research. Yes, you are correct, genetics don't lie (provided the research is properly conducted).

Yes, you has said the same three times. Y-DNA is by far the best way to track our ancestors, what a pity that you don't accept its results. I do not mind, the unbiased reader know that genetics does not deceive.