Clawn said:
A miracle is not a statistical abnormality,...
That`s right, Clawn. We agree. What do you mean by "statistical abnormality?" To me, beating great odds are an abnormality of probability. It would be normal for one man and most probable for one man to lose to an army if he were only armed with the jaw bone of an ass. Even if he did, which is what you are referring to, it still would not be a miracle -- I think it would just be him beating the odds (i.e. lucky).
But, those viewing it may deem it miraculous if they are believers in a version of defying 80% odds as a miracle.
I specifically said earlier that a miracle would have to go against known natural physics. To me, the odds are irrelevant.
strongvoicesforward, you seem to forget that a miracle is, by definition, a "wonderful occurance."
Clawn, that is one definition of it -- and that IS the loser definition of the two. Religion is not of the natural world and in the sense of spirits or spirituality, that essence cannot be observed, therefore, the 2nd definition in the relgio sense, the more strict one, should be used when talking about that which is a miracle and cannot be explained through the natural laws of physics, for Gods realm is not of this world, and if it is being spoken in the spiritual sense, it should therefore be used with the sense that cannot be seen as is God`s realm cannot be seen.
So, what is the difference between "lucky" and "miracle" in the lose sense that you are using? I think it is lucky that I found a parking space so close to the movie theatre entrance when for years I have never been able to. It is a hot day. It is wonderful that I don't have to walk so far to the entrance where the occurance of a cool blast of wind from airconditioning will greet me as I open the door.
Now, is that a miracle or just lucky? Are you watering down the concept of miracle so that they are not so uncommon. What will become of the word "lucky?"
I think it is lucky I found such a good parking space.
I doubt having your army beaten by a single man who has "the jaw bone of an ass" would be wonderful, unless you were looking to be beaten.
Clawn, why would I be "looking for" my army to be beaten, and why would I think it would be "wonderful." I want my army to win! But, if I did believe in miracles based on odds, I would have to honestly say it was miraculous one man beat my whole army. But then that would not necessarily be a "good and wonderful occurance" from my perspective.
A miracle is viewed as good by one man while it might be viewed as disaster by the next. This does not mean it has to go against the odds.
I think the rest of your argument, when faced with what a miracle truly is, has no importance.
For the latter: eeerrrr.... Oh, ok. So convenient for you.
For the former: Like I said, I don`t believe miracles are in the "defying odds" category -- that is for luck or another word coincidences. However, if someone is going to hold to the notion that miracles are based on 80/20 % odds, it is hazy reasoning to see how someone will say miracles occur with the odds and not against them.
It is an 80% chance that the novacain the dentist shot me up with would work as previously researched and tested and allow me to have a pain free filling experience of my tooth with amalgam. The filling has been done and I had experienced no pain just like all the thousands of research and testing had bored out previously, not to mention the millions of other people who had the same thing done. Was my not having any pain a miracle?
You are watering down the meaning and power of the word miracle by reducing it to every day occurrances if you adere to the odds principle of it but then feel you can go with the odds to claim a miracle. That doesn`t make sense to me. Why does it you?