E-V13 coming from Hatvan culture ?

[enter_tain]

Only a small part of Hungary is really relevant for the earliest period, that's the Nyirseg region, mostly in what is now Szabolcs-Szatm�r-Bereg. The rest of Hungary largely not as much.

Even later the main distribution area was always the Tisza and Transtisza area. How many samples are from locals of the Transtisza region? That's like sampling Slavs and Romans in Albania, you can do that, probably, but that tells you little about the locals, even in case they mixed with them, they are not identical. Same here. We have no locals from the Eastern region of the cremating groups.

To understand how E-V13 came to Bulgaria, just follow the rivers Tisza-Danube and Tisza-Pruth-Danube:

Western route (Tisza-Danube): G�va -> Belegis II-G�va
Eastern route (Tisza-Prut-Danube): Lapus II-G�va -> Babadag
Both ended at the Lower Danube and spread from there through the rest of Bulgaria.

I always said that Thrace should have a lot of E-V13. Why is as of yet not fully clear, but it can't be unrelated to Channelled Ware and (Daco-) Thracians.

As for your sarcastic comment, Thracians of the South East and the other Thracians being one koine, you also see it with Channelled and stamped pottery, the related groups of G�va (late), Babadag, Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo. We got now one tested, Psenichevo, there are just three to go to get the full circle. Simple as that.
Channelled Ware did move along the rivers, they were adapted to more wet zones for specialised agriculture and animal husbandry.

EV13 originated somewhere in West Asia. Where/when exactly we don't know, but now it pops up near the border with Anatolia. So it being "eastern" in origin is not news, since R1b/R1a/J2B2/J1/some I2-clades are all "eastern". The issue is when/where.

If you study their clades, and you know the Albanians are relatively younger, then tell your friends Hawk/Mount & co that, because it seems they can't grasp that.

 

[Riverman]

EV13 originated somewhere in West Asia. Where/when exactly we don't know, but now it pops up near the border with Anatolia. So it being "eastern" in origin is not news, since R1b/R1a/J2B2/J1/some I2-clades are all "eastern". The issue is when/where.

If you study their clades, and you know the Albanians are relatively younger, then tell your friends Hawk/Mount & co that, because it seems they can't grasp that.

It came from Anatolia with Impresso-Cardial. That's a long time before the Bronze Age. It already spread Northward in the Middle Neolithic, we know that, because we have samples of E1b1b (multiple) from Michelsberg, Lengyel and one from Tripolye-Cucuteni. So along the very same river systems E-V13 later spread (Danube, Tisza, Pruth).

As for the Albanian clades, they are not that young as such, they just experienced recent founder effects. That tells you nothing about their presence in or around Albania in let's say 1.000 BC, because most of them could have been there by that time. What happened with the early Albanians is just that they had a bottleneck, and then some of the lineages expanded very successfully afterwards.
This tells you nothing about how common those lineages were in the same area, in the Pre-Albanian people, before these events. We simply don't know, because we don't have the samples as of yet. The first came in, so this helps a bit, but this handful of samples from a very specific area doesn't really uncover the full story.

Take a major Northern Albanian subclade like https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/

What can we read out of it? We just see there are older Southern and Balkan branches around. We get back to the timing of Thracian Hallstatt and La Tene. But where they were sitting, how common they were in the period before about 200-500 AD, nobody really knows. We just know that around that time frame, 200-500 AD, they really diversified and expanded quite rapidly. That's what we do know. They could have come down to the more Southern Balkans early (LBA) or late (Pannonian-Thracian, Dacian, Germanic, probably even first Slavicised groups moving in Late Antiquity). That's something you don't know, I don't know, nobody knows, until we get solid sampling. That's quite a time for guessing (about 1.600 years) without any relevant data.

That's the difference to what I'm writing, because for the earlier massive founder events and splits, we got the data. We know that about 1.300-1.000 BC huge movements of E-V13 happened, which settled on a big scale in many different areas of Europe, in a geographically differentiated manner. Like we at least have something like West, North, East, South and South East groups with some splinters and small branches all around. All coming from one original group of people and population. That's in the data, you can see it on FTDNA, YFull and any major paper which will ever deal with that subject in a serious manner has to recognise it as well.

 

[enter_tain]

As for the Albanian clades, they are not that young as such, they just experienced recent founder effects.

Agreed, and it's what I've been saying. But like I said, tell your friends that, who accuse me of "propaganda".

Apparently Albanians are impervious to genetic bottlenecks and founder effects, and anything else is "nationalism" and "info from biased sites"

 

[Riverman]

Agreed, and it's what I've been saying. But like I said, tell your friends that, who accuse me of "propaganda".

Apparently Albanians are impervious to genetic bottlenecks and founder effects, and anything else is "nationalism" and "info from biased sites"

However, also note that the upstream distribution is not random, like we get at the upstream level of PH2180 at least single samples from different, as old branches (LBA-EIA).

1. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y184711/
2. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5607/
3. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y96696/

At least, probably more. Note that they all split from their usually more geographically distant cousins about the same time: 100-600 AD. What this does suggest, is that not one random person came in and had a random founder effect, but an E-V13 rich group of people already existed in the region or came in around that time. That's just one clade, there are others, pointing to the same pattern by and large, but its more obvious in this subclade of E-V13.

That a lot of the other subclade members being also from the balkans means that they were in/close to the Balkans earlier, probably even in the vicinity of Albania. The pattern just means that a lot of related side branches might have not survived the bottleneck or were not as successful. The percentage could have been pretty similar before, that's an unknown without having more ancient DNA data.

But what we got really suggests that whatever happened, there were whole groups which were E-V13 rich, not just some random blokes having success by chance. Those stick out, they are recognisable, but there is more to that, a network behind these extremely successful lineages like E-PH2180. They didn't come alone, but with an E-V13 rich people. Regardless of when exactly within this 1.600 years time frame.

 

[indopedian]

Only a small part of Hungary is really relevant for the earliest period, that's the Nyirseg region, mostly in what is now Szabolcs-Szatm�r-Bereg. The rest of Hungary largely not as much.


Even later the main distribution area was always the Tisza and Transtisza area. How many samples are from locals of the Transtisza region? That's like sampling Slavs and Romans in Albania, you can do that, probably, but that tells you little about the locals, even in case they mixed with them, they are not identical. Same here. We have no locals from the Eastern region of the cremating groups.


To understand how E-V13 came to Bulgaria, just follow the rivers Tisza-Danube and Tisza-Pruth-Danube:




Western route (Tisza-Danube): G�va -> Belegis II-G�va
Eastern route (Tisza-Prut-Danube): Lapus II-G�va -> Babadag
Both ended at the Lower Danube and spread from there through the rest of Bulgaria.


I always said that Thrace should have a lot of E-V13. Why is as of yet not fully clear, but it can't be unrelated to Channelled Ware and (Daco-) Thracians.


As for your sarcastic comment, Thracians of the South East and the other Thracians being one koine, you also see it with Channelled and stamped pottery, the related groups of G�va (late), Babadag, Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo. We got now one tested, Psenichevo, there are just three to go to get the full circle. Simple as that.
Channelled Ware did move along the rivers, they were adapted to more wet zones for specialised agriculture and animal husbandry.

There are four river at Balkan which names have same root with Daco-Misian-Thracian etymology:


1. Calabaeus. River name has wrote in Roman sources around 100. AD. The location of river is somewhere at Dobruja near Danube delta.
2. Kolubara. Right tributary of Sava river in Serbia.
3. Kupa (ancient Colapis). Right tributary of Sava river in Croatia.
4. Kalabarina. Left tributary of Veternica river in South Serbia near Serbia-Kosovo border. It is small river very rich of water first recorded in Turkish military census 1455. as name of near by village.


These rivers has root Kal-aba which acording to Duridanov (his propose refers to river Calabaeus, -eus is cleraly Latin sufix) belongs to Daco-Misian etymology where Kal cognate with Old-Prussian kalis 'cat fish' and aba is IE 'river, water'. Also these four Balkan rivers has parallels only in some Baltic rivers (Kol-ub, Kal-upe, Kal-upis, Kal-upys) and nothing elsewhere. Some linguists (Dikenman, Gottfried Schramm, Duridanov, Toma Maretic, Aleksandar Loma etc.) try to solve etymology of Kolubara river but there is no consensus about that and it is classified as 'dark hydronym'. The consensus is that Kolubara has no Slavic etymology.


The hydronyms are very resistant to change. These four Balkan rivers has clearly pre-Roman etymology, the most possible Daco-Misian as Duridanov propose for Calabaeus. The distribution of these rivers, except Kupa/Colapis, perfectly feet to Babadag, Bosut-Basarabi complex and I see no other connections to these still remote rivers. Regard Kupa/Colapis it is clear it has connection to Panonian tribe Colapians which, I remember correct, lived in middle Sava region then migrate to west between Kupa and Una rivers. Does ethnicity of this tribe belong to panonian group and name to daco-misian or all tribe belong to daco-misian complex it is debatable. Maybe some E-V13 findings from LBA or EIA so west could be a clue of that migration from daco-misian space.

The less known river Kalabarina still exists today with this name and it's location would be in a core of ancient Dardanian territory. This is in a colaration with opinions of Serbian archaeologists Milutin Garasanin and Dragoslav Srejovic who stated that first layer of Dardanian ethnos is of daco-misian origin.

The banal translation of compound Kal-aba ​is 'fish-river'.

One interesting note, the first part of compound Kal-aba (from Old-prussian kalis 'cat-fish') has PIE root *(s)kʷálos. This is a rare loan to IE languages from proto-Uralic *kala ('fish') according to some linguist as Peter Schrijver.

 

[torzio]

You pathetic troll. You just had a major publication grouping Albanian, Illyrian, Messapic together under "Illyric" by western authors, but I'm doing nationalistic "propaganda".

You have 4 Illyrians with EV13 right now. You're just butthurt that Kosovo's #1 Y-DNA was irrelevant until Ottoman times.

you seem to have Tosk and Gheg the wrong way around it is to do with Malsia Madhe


Using Malsia Madhe for historical analysis.

Phonological and lexical

conservatism in MMA is capable of providing additional data and a potential insight into earlier
forms of Albanian and Illyrian.This section provides some uses, as well as items that warrant
further investigation. These suggestions will be minimal, as they deserve their own papers. The
primary intention for MMA is to provide additional data and historical context for studying
Albanian. The lexical and phonological conservatism allows for more connections to PIE and its
daughters. When used alongside the Gheg, and Tosk dialects, a more thorough internal
reconstruction of Proto-Albanian can be made.

MMA also provides additional data to the discussion on Albanians relationship with the Messapian language dating to ca. 7th-2nd centuries BCE in Apulia, Italy. Initial forays into studying the language by Seliščev (1931), Barić (1955), Georgiev (1960), and Popović (1960) led to the opinion that Albanian bore no relation to the Illyrian and Messapian languages. However, more recent works by Matzinger have given indication of a connection between the two languages. Matzinger cites similarities between Gheg
brini ‘horn’ and the Messapian city of Brindisium (Maztinger, 2005: 35)

 

[torzio]

you seem to have Tosk and Gheg the wrong way around it is to do with Malsia Madhe
Using Malsia Madhe for historical analysis.
Phonological and lexical
conservatism in MMA is capable of providing additional data and a potential insight into earlier
forms of Albanian and Illyrian.This section provides some uses, as well as items that warrant
further investigation. These suggestions will be minimal, as they deserve their own papers. The
primary intention for MMA is to provide additional data and historical context for studying
Albanian. The lexical and phonological conservatism allows for more connections to PIE and its
daughters. When used alongside the Gheg, and Tosk dialects, a more thorough internal
reconstruction of Proto-Albanian can be made.
MMA also provides additional data to the discussion on Albanians relationship with the Messapian language dating to ca. 7th-2nd centuries BCE in Apulia, Italy. Initial forays into studying the language by Seliščev (1931), Barić (1955), Georgiev (1960), and Popović (1960) led to the opinion that Albanian bore no relation to the Illyrian and Messapian languages. However, more recent works by Matzinger have given indication of a connection between the two languages. Matzinger cites similarities between Gheg
brini ‘horn’ and the Messapian city of Brindisium (Maztinger, 2005: 35)

 

[Johane Derite]

There are four river at Balkan which names have same root with Daco-Misian-Thracian etymology:


1. Calabaeus. River name has wrote in Roman sources around 100. AD. The location of river is somewhere at Dobruja near Danube delta.
2. Kolubara. Right tributary of Sava river in Serbia.
3. Kupa (ancient Colapis). Right tributary of Sava river in Croatia.
4. Kalabarina. Left tributary of Veternica river in South Serbia near Serbia-Kosovo border. It is small river very rich of water first recorded in Turkish military census 1455. as name of near by village.


These rivers has root Kal-aba which acording to Duridanov (his propose refers to river Calabaeus, -eus is cleraly Latin sufix) belongs to Daco-Misian etymology where Kal cognate with Old-Prussian kalis 'cat fish' and aba is IE 'river, water'. Also these four Balkan rivers has parallels only in some Baltic rivers (Kol-ub, Kal-upe, Kal-upis, Kal-upys) and nothing elsewhere. Some linguists (Dikenman, Gottfried Schramm, Duridanov, Toma Maretic, Aleksandar Loma etc.) try to solve etymology of Kolubara river but there is no consensus about that and it is classified as 'dark hydronym'. The consensus is that Kolubara has no Slavic etymology.


The hydronyms are very resistant to change. These four Balkan rivers has clearly pre-Roman etymology, the most possible Daco-Misian as Duridanov propose for Calabaeus. The distribution of these rivers, except Kupa/Colapis, perfectly feet to Babadag, Bosut-Basarabi complex and I see no other connections to these still remote rivers. Regard Kupa/Colapis it is clear it has connection to Panonian tribe Colapians which, I remember correct, lived in middle Sava region then migrate to west between Kupa and Una rivers. Does ethnicity of this tribe belong to panonian group and name to daco-misian or all tribe belong to daco-misian complex it is debatable. Maybe some E-V13 findings from LBA or EIA so west could be a clue of that migration from daco-misian space.

The less known river Kalabarina still exists today with this name and it's location would be in a core of ancient Dardanian territory. This is in a colaration with opinions of Serbian archaeologists Milutin Garasanin and Dragoslav Srejovic who stated that first layer of Dardanian ethnos is of daco-misian origin.

The banal translation of compound Kal-aba ​is 'fish-river'.

One interesting note, the first part of compound Kal-aba (from Old-prussian kalis 'cat-fish') has PIE root *(s)kʷálos. This is a rare loan to IE languages from proto-Uralic *kala ('fish') according to some linguist as Peter Schrijver.

There is a clear connection with Dardani. Galabroi and Messapic. Kalabri here also.

 

[Johane Derite]

There are four river at Balkan which names have same root with Daco-Misian-Thracian etymology:


1. Calabaeus. River name has wrote in Roman sources around 100. AD. The location of river is somewhere at Dobruja near Danube delta.
2. Kolubara. Right tributary of Sava river in Serbia.
3. Kupa (ancient Colapis). Right tributary of Sava river in Croatia.
4. Kalabarina. Left tributary of Veternica river in South Serbia near Serbia-Kosovo border. It is small river very rich of water first recorded in Turkish military census 1455. as name of near by village.


These rivers has root Kal-aba which acording to Duridanov (his propose refers to river Calabaeus, -eus is cleraly Latin sufix) belongs to Daco-Misian etymology where Kal cognate with Old-Prussian kalis 'cat fish' and aba is IE 'river, water'. Also these four Balkan rivers has parallels only in some Baltic rivers (Kol-ub, Kal-upe, Kal-upis, Kal-upys) and nothing elsewhere. Some linguists (Dikenman, Gottfried Schramm, Duridanov, Toma Maretic, Aleksandar Loma etc.) try to solve etymology of Kolubara river but there is no consensus about that and it is classified as 'dark hydronym'. The consensus is that Kolubara has no Slavic etymology.


The hydronyms are very resistant to change. These four Balkan rivers has clearly pre-Roman etymology, the most possible Daco-Misian as Duridanov propose for Calabaeus. The distribution of these rivers, except Kupa/Colapis, perfectly feet to Babadag, Bosut-Basarabi complex and I see no other connections to these still remote rivers. Regard Kupa/Colapis it is clear it has connection to Panonian tribe Colapians which, I remember correct, lived in middle Sava region then migrate to west between Kupa and Una rivers. Does ethnicity of this tribe belong to panonian group and name to daco-misian or all tribe belong to daco-misian complex it is debatable. Maybe some E-V13 findings from LBA or EIA so west could be a clue of that migration from daco-misian space.

The less known river Kalabarina still exists today with this name and it's location would be in a core of ancient Dardanian territory. This is in a colaration with opinions of Serbian archaeologists Milutin Garasanin and Dragoslav Srejovic who stated that first layer of Dardanian ethnos is of daco-misian origin.

The banal translation of compound Kal-aba ​is 'fish-river'.

One interesting note, the first part of compound Kal-aba (from Old-prussian kalis 'cat-fish') has PIE root *(s)kʷálos. This is a rare loan to IE languages from proto-Uralic *kala ('fish') according to some linguist as Peter Schrijver.

I think like PaleoRevenge argued here that the case for the "kala-" being related to catfish is not that convincing:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-VIDEO/page117?p=657230&viewfull=1#post657230


I agree that something related to Albanian prefix kala- fits better, especially for toponyms, as it is a directional signifier:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kala-



Smerdaleos for example links this Albanian prefix with the etymology for the name of a Thracian plant name (sycamore tree): "Kalamindar":

καλαμίνδαρ = «πλάτανος» (Ηδώνες). Λήμμα του Ησυχίου που αναφέρει ο Duridanov χωρίς να προτείνει κάποια ετυμολόγηση.


Εγώ έχω να προτείνω μια ετυμολόγηση ως IE *kwolo-men-(t)ros > θρακ. *kala-mén(t)ra > kalamíndra > «πανύψηλος», με πρώτο συνθετικό παρόμοιο με το αλβανικό [επιτατικό;] πρόθημα *kala- ~ *kali- (< *kwolo- < IE *kwel- «στρέφω», λ.χ. αλβ. kala-mend = «συγχέω, μπερδεύω» [σύγχυση = διαστρέβλωση της σκέψης]) και IE *men- «προεξέχω, υψώνομαι» (λ.χ. λατ. mōns/montem = «βουνό» και ēmineō = «προεξέχω»).

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2017/12/15/οι-θράκες-και-η-γλώσσα-τους-δεκέμβριος/

 

[Johane Derite]

I think like PaleoRevenge argued here that the case for the "kala-" being related to catfish is not that convincing:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-VIDEO/page117?p=657230&viewfull=1#post657230


I agree that something related to Albanian prefix kala- fits better, especially for toponyms, as it is a directional signifier:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kala-



Smerdaleos for example links this Albanian prefix with the etymology for the name of a Thracian plant name (sycamore tree): "Kalamindar":

καλαμίνδαρ = «πλάτανος» (Ηδώνες). Λήμμα του Ησυχίου που αναφέρει ο Duridanov χωρίς να προτείνει κάποια ετυμολόγηση.


Εγώ έχω να προτείνω μια ετυμολόγηση ως IE *kwolo-men-(t)ros > θρακ. *kala-mén(t)ra > kalamíndra > «πανύψηλος», με πρώτο συνθετικό παρόμοιο με το αλβανικό [επιτατικό;] πρόθημα *kala- ~ *kali- (< *kwolo- < IE *kwel- «στρέφω», λ.χ. αλβ. kala-mend = «συγχέω, μπερδεύω» [σύγχυση = διαστρέβλωση της σκέψης]) και IE *men- «προεξέχω, υψώνομαι» (λ.χ. λατ. mōns/montem = «βουνό» και ēmineō = «προεξέχω»).

https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2017/12/15/οι-θράκες-και-η-γλώσσα-τους-δεκέμβριος/

This is not farfetched as we do use "kalavesh" for grapes for example in ALbanian.

 

[Hawk]

Good to see rafc adopting the idea of general Balkan-Carpathian complex as origin of E-V13, this complex what constituted was the use of knobs, channeling or grooves in their pottery, cremation in urns and a lot of shared cultural traits. Gava was very likely and potentially rich in E-V13, but older clades were probably present in this complex earlier than Gava.

 

[Riverman]

Good to see rafc adopting the idea of general Balkan-Carpathian complex as origin of E-V13, this complex what constituted was the use of knobs, channeling or grooves in their pottery, cremation in urns and a lot of shared cultural traits. Gava was very likely and potentially rich in E-V13, but older clades were probably present in this complex earlier than Gava.

It would be great if Western-North Western Romania could be sampled from the Copper Age to the Roman period. Unfortunately, cremation makes this very difficult. There are just the irregular burials which can be checked for some regions and periods. I really think that Suciu de Sus will prove to be crucial, because to the West were Carpathian Tumulus culture, to the East Noua, to the North developed Lusatians - which might have had some E-V13 as well, but surely not as much. Suciu de Sus represents the more local and South Eastern oriented population element.

 

[indopedian]

There is a clear connection with Dardani. Galabroi and Messapic. Kalabri here also.

Yes, I agree. There are three more toponims with similar root which quite a lot coincide with ancient Dardania:

1. Kolobar/Globar near Zubin Potok
2. Golibar/Galibare near Kursumlija
3. Globarica southwest of Kosovska Kamenica

I think like PaleoRevenge argued here that the case for the "kala-" being related to catfish is not that convincing:



I agree that something related to Albanian prefix kala- fits better, especially for toponyms, as it is a directional signifier:

It is a rivo Calabaeus not Collabus PaleoRevenge stated. Unfortunately I can't post links cos not have 20 post at forum (ridiculous measure). At this link

lupa.at/22068/photos/2

you can see Roman tablet with inscription from around 100 AD, at lower left corner could see 'rivo Calabaeus'.

I think Albanian word kalivare ('trickling down') has more lexical similarity with the names of these rivers which PaleoRevenge dont mention in his post and directly has a meaning relate to water. The remoteness and name oldness of these four rivers with same root speak to it self. It is a echo of very old migration, probably from first part of first millennium BC or the end of second millennium BC. I dont think this root derive from Albanoid languages in such old times. It is perfectly fit to expand of Bosut-Besarabi-Babadag cultures which has something with daco-misians. Besides the word aba is a reconstructed Dacian word for water, river. Also Colapis could be fit to these expand from Carpathian-Danube complex as west branch of migratory waves. Any ancient E-V13 from first millennium BC at middle or upper course of Sava river could be signal of that migration. I'm not quite sure, but there is one E-V13 from recent southern ark paper, somewhere near Zagreb if I remember well.

But, in my opinion, first part of compound Kal-aba, kala has deeper connection with Albanian language through another word. If we look at PIE reconstruction *(s)kʷálos 'big fish' which is loan from proto-Uralic kala 'fish', the ancient sound change sk->h in proto-Albanian *skala would give halo/hala or halë 'fish bone' - what a coincidence! I know the official etymology for Albanian halë is a derivation from PIE *skel(H) 'to split', but in my opinion first etymology has more logic. And this change of meaning fish -> fish bone is a argument itself for oldness of this loan in Albanian.

In conclusion, if we could put ethnonyms Messapic Kalabroi and Dardanian Galabroi with these four rivers in the same plane, this could be a smoking gun to at least areal vicinity of Daco-Misian, Messapic and Proto-Albanian languages, probably somewhere in BA cultures of Carpathians which Riverman and Hawk elaborate in detail here and on similar threads on this forum.