E-V13 origins: Candidate cultures and what we can read out of YFull

[PaleoRevenge]

The comparison with R-L2 really helped and improved things, therefore I made a version with J-L283 and R-L2 together with E-V13, this is the newest version with comments for the major events:

https://ibb.co/GVSBPRN

The J2 dip around 1,100 years ago coincidences with the decline of Komani culture, which is speculated to have been invaded from the east by early Albanians.

 

[Southpaw]

The E-L618 sample

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Argar_Bastida:BAS025
Distance: 4.1611% / 0.04161068

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]65.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]25.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Europe_Hunter-Gatherer_WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]7.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Tibetan_Plateau_Late_Neolithic_NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]South_China_Neolithic_Farmer_CHN_Liangdao2_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN[/TD]

The rest are all R1b i think

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Argar_Bastida:BAS024
Distance: 4.4122% / 0.04412150

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]66.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]23.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Europe_Hunter-Gatherer_WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Indus__Valley_Civilization_IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Amerindian_BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Argar_Bastida:BAS023
Distance: 5.0014% / 0.05001372

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]68.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]23.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Europe_Hunter-Gatherer_WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Indus__Valley_Civilization_IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Siberia_Hunter-Gatherer_RUS_Tyumen_HG[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Argar_Bastida:BAS022
Distance: 4.7648% / 0.04764790

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]67.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]20.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Europe_Hunter-Gatherer_WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]9.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Siberia_Hunter-Gatherer_RUS_Tyumen_HG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Tibetan_Plateau_Late_Neolithic_NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Argar_Bastida:BAS018
Distance: 4.1676% / 0.04167553

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]64.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]25.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Europe_Hunter-Gatherer_WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Indus__Valley_Civilization_IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]West_Siberia_Hunter-Gatherer_RUS_Tyumen_HG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Japan_Jomon_Hunter-Gatherer_JPN_Jomon[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN[/TD]

The distance is too large? Why do they have more WHG than Yamnaya i wonder?

 

[Riverman]

The distance is too large? Why do they have more WHG than Yamnaya i wonder?

Most likely because they came from a WHG-rich group of second stage Neolithics, indeed like Michelsberger or Lengyel.

 

[Southpaw]

Most likely because they came from a WHG-rich group of second stage Neolithics, indeed like Michelsberger or Lengyel.

Do you think chances that Michelsberger => Lengyel for E-V13 origin are more appropriate?

 

[Riverman]

Do you think chances that Michelsberger => Lengyel for E-V13 origin are more appropriate?

No, its possible, but its the second best option.
Because we know that E1b1b being present in Impresso-Cardial, presumably also in other/later Balkan-Adriatic groups and we know it did expand with Lengyel, we have the finds from Hungary. Lengyel did expand westwards and fused with Michelsberger. Therefore I think it was going from Lengyel -> Michelsberg.

The fusion happened especially in Southern Germany, from groups like Altheim:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altheim_culture

Typically, the E1b1b finds from the Michelsberger being close to the Danubian-Rhenish waterways. Most expansions from Pannonia-Carpathians westwards happened along those routes.

Its older in Lengyel, its proven, so I rather bet on Lengyel as the primary origin, but a fusion with Michelsberger took place in Southern Germany and later in a wider area.

Lengyel had a long persistence in the Carpathian zone. Obviously, late Lengyel and Tisza culture are among the groups I would look at in particular.

The Late Neolithic period (5000?4500 BCE) of the Carpathian Basin is characterised by two major cultural complexes: the Lengyel culture in western Hungary and the Tisza?Herp?ly?Csőszhalom complex in eastern Hungary. The occupation area of the two cultural complexes had a ?common border? along a large area in recent northern Hungary, from the Danube River to the Upper Tisza River region. Their relationships are indicated in the mixed nature of their material culture, settlement types and mortuary practices.

Its also interesting that they had the same border as we see it later, between Middle Danubian Urnfielders and G?va:

The occupation area of the two cultural complexes had a ?common border? along a large area in recent northern Hungary, from the Danube River to the Upper Tisza River region. Their inter-relationship is indicated by the mixed nature of the material culture, settlement types and mortuary practices found in the border area. The focus of this paper, the site of Asz?d-Papi f?ldek, was situated in this borderland.

https://www.academia.edu/33271091/E...Late_Neolithic_settlement_in_northern_Hungary

For the Eastern Hungarian area, it probably goes very roughly: K?r?s, Tisza, Tiszapolgar. Interestingly, knobs and ribs were already in the Late Neolithic common decorations in the area. However, the Southern influence in the Tisza tell settlements did fade in the North and we see the survival of more local groups the further up the Tisza we move. This means the cultural influence was there, but genetically, more local elements might have persisted.
Its surely complicated, considering all the migrations up and down, expansions and replacements, but I would think currently that around the Upper Tisza was were E-V13 lived for a prolonged period of time before the LBA already. This wouldn't even contradict earlier more Southern positions held also, because people from the Upper Tisza regularly expanded southward along the river valley, even Tiszapolgar did.

 

[Southpaw]

No, its possible, but its the second best option.
Because we know that E1b1b being present in Impresso-Cardial, presumably also in other/later Balkan-Adriatic groups and we know it did expand with Lengyel, we have the finds from Hungary. Lengyel did expand westwards and fused with Michelsberger. Therefore I think it was going from Lengyel -> Michelsberg.

The fusion happened especially in Southern Germany, from groups like Altheim:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altheim_culture

Typically, the E1b1b finds from the Michelsberger being close to the Danubian-Rhenish waterways. Most expansions from Pannonia-Carpathians westwards happened along those routes.

Its older in Lengyel, its proven, so I rather bet on Lengyel as the primary origin, but a fusion with Michelsberger took place in Southern Germany and later in a wider area.

Lengyel had a long persistence in the Carpathian zone. Obviously, late Lengyel and Tisza culture are among the groups I would look at in particular.



Its also interesting that they had the same border as we see it later, between Middle Danubian Urnfielders and G�va:


https://www.academia.edu/33271091/E...Late_Neolithic_settlement_in_northern_Hungary

For the Eastern Hungarian area, it probably goes very roughly: K�r�s, Tisza, Tiszapolgar. Interestingly, knobs and ribs were already in the Late Neolithic common decorations in the area. However, the Southern influence in the Tisza tell settlements did fade in the North and we see the survival of more local groups the further up the Tisza we move. This means the cultural influence was there, but genetically, more local elements might have persisted.
Its surely complicated, considering all the migrations up and down, expansions and replacements, but I would think currently that around the Upper Tisza was were E-V13 lived for a prolonged period of time before the LBA already. This wouldn't even contradict earlier more Southern positions held also, because people from the Upper Tisza regularly expanded southward along the river valley, even Tiszapolgar did.

How can Lengyel be the source of E-M78/EL618/E-V13 when only 1 sample was E-L618 and all others G2a, H2, I2 whereas Michelsbergers have quite a lot yet unresolved E-M78 samples which could very likely be E-L618/E-V13.

 

[Riverman]

How can Lengyel be the source of E-M78/EL618/E-V13 when only 1 sample was E-L618 and all others G2a, H2, I2 whereas Michelsbergers have quite a lot yet unresolved E-M78 samples which could very likely be E-L618/E-V13.

Lengyel is older and its two (Lengyel-Sopot) samples already. The Michelsberger might indeed have E-L618/even E-V13 possibly, but most likely not the surviving main branch and they most likely got it from the Lengyel group which moved into Southern Germany.
Could be the other way around, but I don't see an inclination for that. Lengyel was quite diverse, Michelsberger had along the rivers some E1b1b, but their main group was quite homogeneous.

 

[Riverman]

We can also check Chinese samples, and there are some interesting finds:
https://www.23mofang.com/ancestry/ytree/E

Among other branches, E-Z5018 is well-represented, e.g. (only Chinese participants, there are also non-Chinese like Americans and Italians):

E-MF172289, 6 samples:
City Jining, Provinz Shandong, China
City Shenzhen, Provinz Guangdong, China
City Pingliang, Provinz Gansu, China
City Tianjin, China
Ningxia Hui Autonome Region Guyuan City, China
Autonome Region Xinjiang der Uiguren Kashgar, China
https://www.23mofang.com/ancestry/ytree/E-MF172289/detail?root=E

E-MF172289, 1 sample:
Provinz Shaanxi Stadt Yulin, China
https://www.23mofang.com/ancestry/ytree/E-MF291434/detail?root=E

These two are major branches which are practically non-existent in Europe, if I'm right they are below:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y154545/

So quite old, in Europe the relatives are in the North and the branches themselves are quite China-specific. This could point to Scythians, old Scythians even.

E-S2979, 11 samples:
Anshun, Provinz Guizhou, China
Daqing, Provinz Heilongjiang, China
Hotan, Autonome Region Xinjiang der Uigurs, China
Wuhan, Hubei, China
Tieling city, Provinz Liaoning, China
Hotan, Autonome Region Xinjiang der Uiguren, China
City Yantai, Provinz Shandong, China
City Beijing, China
City Shenzhen, Provinz Guangdong, China
Provinz Jilin, city Jilin, China
City Beijing, China
https://www.23mofang.com/ancestry/ytree/E-S2979/detail?root=E

E-FGC11457/E-B409, 4 samples:
Yantai, Shandong, China
Shanghai city, China
Beijing city, China
Yantai, province Shandong, China
https://www.23mofang.com/ancestry/ytree/E-B409/detail?root=E

E-L241, 2 samples:
Xining, Qinghai, China
Lanzhou, Gansu, China
https://www.23mofang.com/ancestry/ytree/E-L241/detail?root=E

What's quite striking, considering the distribution of wealth and population density, is that there is a strong concentration in the North, and more specifically, in the Uyghurs autonomous region. This aligns the best with an Iranian/indoeuropean and Turkic speaker spread.

Its remarkable that subclades present in Pannonia and Central Europe, some branches being possibly spread by Scythianised groups, being also present in China. Actually they are the more numerous ones, relatively speaking and definitely fairly well represented in the very Northern, especially North Western and Uyghur regions. The low level of the specific subclades in the very South of the country and no stronger concentration in the coastal areas, which are more wealthy and populated, at all, is quite significant.

There is even a research project for E-S2979, because its related to a common surname:

research process
Research leads
According to the statistics of the 23 Rubik's Cube ancestry database, there is a family of Ma surnamed in China. The proportion of E-S2979 among male users with the surname Ma in China is 0.21%, which is 26.0 times the normal level of 0.01% in China. And after statistical test, this family is very significant. Based on this, we speculate that there may be a large family of Ma surnames downstream of E-S2979.
Research objectives
1. When was the Ma family branch in China founded?
2. Where did the Chinese Ma family migrate from?
3. How many families are there in the lower reaches of the Chinese Ma family?
research proposal
This research requires at least 10 Chinese users with the Ma surname who are not close relatives to conduct in-depth testing, and at least 5 non-Ma family members under this haplogroup are required to participate in the research.

Number of samples needed to complete family research
5/15

https://www.23mofang.com/ancestry/family/5dfc95fd5882b87ddf6fd14a

The frequency of 0,01 % might not sound like its much, but consider, that's China, so we're potentially talking about E-S2979 being present in about up to 70.000 Chinese carriers, which is significant.

There are some theories about the surname Ma, which would further strengthen the Uyghur/steppe connection:

As of 2006, it ranks as the 14th most common Chinese surname in Mainland China and the most common surname within the Chinese Muslim community, specifically the Hui people, Dongxiang people and Salar people.[2] In 2019 it was the 13th most common surname in Mainland China.[3] A 2013 study found it to be the 13th most common, shared by 17,200,000 people or 1.290% of the population, with the province with the most being Henan. It is the 52nd name on the Hundred Family Surnames poem

Hui Muslims, Salars, Bonan and Dongxiang people commonly adopted Ma as the translation for their surname Muhammad. for e.g. Ma Jian, Ma Benzhai, Ma clique.[5][6][7][8]

During the Ming dynasty, the Zhengde Emperor had an Uyghur concubine with the surname Ma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_(surname)

 

[Riverman]

There is a second project related to E-V13:

family introduction

He Clan Focused on China
Traceability research

research object

The Ho family downstream of E-L142.1

Suspected Y haplogroup
E-L142.1
research process
Research leads
According to the statistics of 23 Rubik's Cube ancestry database, it is found that there is a family with the surname He in China. The proportion of E-L142.1 among male users surnamed He in China is 0.30%, which is 11.2 times the normal level of 0.03% in China. And after statistical test, this family is very significant. Based on this, we speculate that there may be a large family of He surnames downstream of E-L142.1.
Research objectives
1. When was the He family branch in China founded?
2. Where did the He family in China migrate from?
3. How many families are there in the lower reaches of the He family in China?
research proposal
This study requires at least 10 Chinese non-kinship He surname users to conduct in-depth testing, and at least 5 non-He surname family members under this haplogroup are required to participate in the research.

https://www.23mofang.com/ancestry/family/5dfc95fc5882b87ddf6fccfb

Samples under E-V13 (about 23 Chinese):
https://www.23mofang.com/ancestry/ytree/E-L142.1/detail?root=E

Fuzhou city of Fujian
Mongolian No surname** Tongliao City, Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region
Chagan Tatar** Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region Xilingol League
Yantai City, Shandong Province
Jincheng, Shanxi Province
Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region Kashgar
Macao Special Administrative Region
Suihua City, Heilongjiang Province
Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region Xilingol League
Macao Special Administrative Region
Xiaogan City, Hubei Province
Korean** Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region Xilingol League
Khalkha Mongolia** Chifeng, Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region
Huanut**Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region Xilingol League
Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region Changji Hui Autonomous Prefecture
Shanxi Province Linfen City
Fan** Chengdu, Sichuan Province
Abriti** Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region Urumqi City
Shaanxi Province Xi'an City
Shanghai Municipal District
Hohhot, Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region
Abdul Rishiti** Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region Kashgar
Zhumadian City, Henan Province

Therefore, 23mofang estimates E-V13 in China at about 0,03 % or 210.000 individuals, of which one third being E-S2979.

Its very obvious, from all the samples, that there is a concentration among Uyghurs, former or current Chinese muslims Hui), Mongols and people from Northern China. Everything in accordance, like suggested, with a spread along the steppe route.

 

[TetaEglantina]

The J2 dip around 1,100 years ago coincidences with the decline of Komani culture, which is speculated to have been invaded from the east by early Albanians.

The proposed komani expansion would have been a few hundred years earlier, and it was supposedly an expansion from within not from the "east" as the komani were always there during roman era -

"Within Albanian archaeology, based on the continuity of pre-Roman Illyrian forms in the production of several types of local objects found in graves, the population of Komani-Kruja was framed as a group which descended from the local Illyrians who "re-asserted their independence" from the Roman Empire after many centuries and formed the core of the later historical region of Arbanon.[2] As research focused almost entirely on grave contexts and burial sites, settlements and living spaces were often ignore.[3] Yugoslav archaeology proposed an opposite narrative and tried to frame the population as Slavic, especially in the region of western Macedonia.[4] Archaeological research has shown that these sites were not related to regions then inhabited by Slavs and even in regions like Macedonia, no Slavic settlements had been founded in the 7th century."

 

[EV13SON]

I recall reading somewhere about a theory concerning the sea people uprisings I don't remember where it was but it spoke about the importance of the bronze trade routes it was practically the oil of the bronze age and how many people from mainland Europe at that time were hired as mercenaries and guards to fight in the wars and protect the caravans. When peace was brokered between Egypt and the Hittites? the demand for bronze collapsed, those Mercenaries having lost their main source of income decided to turn on the rich nations. I just wonder if this was how EV13 got down in to Greece with the Doric Invasions as well as in other parts, I understand we agree E was already present in Europe since before the IE migrations...just some thoughts that came to mind.

 

[Riverman]

I recall reading somewhere about a theory concerning the sea people uprisings I don't remember where it was but it spoke about the importance of the bronze trade routes it was practically the oil of the bronze age and how many people from mainland Europe at that time were hired as mercenaries and guards to fight in the wars and protect the caravans. When peace was brokered between Egypt and the Hittites? the demand for bronze collapsed, those Mercenaries having lost their main source of income decided to turn on the rich nations. I just wonder if this was how EV13 got down in to Greece with the Doric Invasions as well as in other parts, I understand we agree E was already present in Europe since before the IE migrations...just some thoughts that came to mind.

Its true that some of the Sea Peoples groups, and some groups contributing to the Sea People, were already present in the Aegean and beyond before. This is true for the Urnfielders, both from the Illyrian groups and the Channelled Ware/Thracians, which I would primarily associate with E-V13. They worked in the Mycenaean centres, were there as mercenaries, artisans and probably some slaves also. I think it was more similar to the Germanic migration period. They knew how things were running there, what was there to get, to plunder. And when they developed new, advanced weapons and tactics, like Naue II slashing swords, better casted spearheads, larger shields and fighting in close formations (proto-hoplite style), they took advantage of the situation and decided, whole communities did so, to move South. You see it in the record, that some areas of the Carpathian basin saw a reduction of population density, and suddenly even more artefacts from Urnfield people appear in the Mycenaean, while the city states in the East Mediterranean begin to collapse.

They knew where they were going, because relatives, clans, small groups and individuals were already there. The really decisive factor was their military superiority, while the Mycenaeans were already in decline.