E-V13 subclades in Greece

[Nik]

Garrick, how can we possibly know that?

He has some Illyrian friends.

 

[blevins13]

He has some Illyrian friends.

Let go back to Greece now...


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Garrick]

Garrick, how can we possibly know that?

Yes.

Harry Mountain capital volumes I-V, The Celtic Encyclopedia, Vol. I 1998.

Author studied Celts and all people who were linked with Celts in any epoche in history.

Author highlights about Proto-Illyrians that warrior herders of the Yamnaya culture about 2000 BC from the Plateu of Phyrgia in Turkey came to the indigenous people Danubian farmers.

In geographic terms it means from Plateu of Phyrgia in present day Turkey warrior herders via Bosphorus came to the Panonian plain.

But it is very logical, Maciamo wrote a lot about it, and about similarities Mycenaeans with Illyrians.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

Sile was right about Illyrians in Austria. Mountain writes that in Austria Illyrians were mining salt in Gmunden in BC 1000. What is interesting according Mountain Illyrian warriors with Picts travelled to the Ireland and Britain.

We can speak about Proto-Illyrians in the Panonian plain and Balkans only after before 2000 BC and it is in accordance with genetic data.

We should keep in mind period of existence of Illyrians.

Illyrians developed from Proto-Illyrians about 1200 BC, maybe 100-200 years earlier or later (1500-1000) based on author.

Illyrians ceased to exist as political entity in 3rd century AD, because they were completely Romanized. After that we can speak only about Romanized Illyrians who spoke Latin.

My opinion is When Illyrians became Romanized they were Roman allies and soldiers and participated in different areas of Roman empire, probably the most in areas in present day Italy. Therefore not only in Balkans and in these areas we can find their descendants. In the Balkans their population decreased (several reasons).

If we know that they had similarities with Mycenaeans and their language could not be completely different. Maybe therefore Illyrian was Centum as Greek and not Satem as Thracian, Albanian and Balto Slavic.

 

[LeBrok]

Author highlights about Proto-Illyrians that warrior herders of the Yamnaya culture about 2000 BC from the Plateu of Phyrgia in Turkey came to the indigenous people Danubian farmers.

Extremely speculative. The same way we can say that proto-Slavs entered Eastern Europe in 2500 BC. Which is false, there were CW who expended on Northern Europe, from which eventually after 2000 years and additional mixing proto Slavs happened.
If we are talking about Illyrians, perhaps in the future we can reconstruct their cultural/language movement, perhaps indeed from Anatolia. We can reconstruct how much local genetic and cultural input they got, and I bet it will be big majority. And see if there were elements from IE from Northern Europe. Probably some too.
Think spectrum and probabilities. Don't be convinced and assured by some historian who is guessing the whole thing on few artifacts from the past, and paints it as black and white issue.

It means E1b-L618, 5485 BC and R1b-Z2103, 2725 BC have nothing with Illyrians.

Illyrians formed 1200 BC, some source claims 1000 BC, some sources 1500 BC, it doesn't matter.

Actually if Illyrians formed in Balkans 1200 BC, the E1b-L618 has a lot to do with them and with other haplogroups that existed during their ethos, in their area. Even if it doesn't have much to do with prot-Illyrians (language/elite wise - if true) from Anatolis, it does with Illyrians from Balkans.

 

[Garrick]

Think spectrum and probabilities. Don't be convinced and assured by some historian who is guessing the whole thing on few artifacts from the past, and paints it as black and white issue.

I can agree with you but partially.

However, there are some facts and parameters based on which researchers do studies.

Warrior herders could not came 3000 or 4000 BC, and it is important information that they came from Turkey to Balkans.

Actually if Illyrians formed in Balkans 1200 BC, the E1b-L618 has a lot to do with them and with other haplogroups that existed during their ethos, in their area. Even if it doesn't have much to do with prot-Illyrians (language/elite wise - if true) from Anatolis, it does with Illyrians from Balkans.

But it is important to know about what we discuss.

Because here people mention 4700 years, 7500 years (5500 BC) etc.

Do you agree that something found in these times nothing to do with Illyrians.

...
It is very important to know context.

If we speak about Proto-Illyrians we have 2000 BC (if it is not too precise we can add or decrease but not excessive) and direction from Turkey, what is important too.

In case of Proto-Thracians we have Early Bronze Age, what is much earlier, probably 3000-2700 BC and direction was from Ukraine.

If we know time and direction we can much easier identify which haplogroups IE populations could bring and with whom natives they could mix.

Illyrians and Thracians had different paths, arrived in different epoches to the Balkans and surrounding and they were different in genetics. Yes after it could come to some mixing but differences have remained. And languages were not same.

 

[Yetos]

maybe hey we're. Maybe they weren't. Like I said, no evidence for or against. Very little of anything but sparse words exist. There is no solid consensus because there is no abundant evidence. Just fragments to which people attempt well educated guesses based on historical documentation which itself is a written work that may not be completely reliable. Hence the reason for archeology to confirm or reject historical claims. As any individual with common sense should understand, history is not a stand in for reality, but a perspective from the dominant tribe. Propaganda of the time if you will. Point is your claim is just as flimsy as that of Albanians claiming a connection. It's just guesswork until evidence is available. Until that it's all a waste of bickering. If you cared to read anything I said, I stated E-V13 is Neolithic not Illyrian. I also stated as would any common sense individual, that e-V13 most definitely participated in the ethnogenesis of Illyrians as did they many other tribes who absorbed their peoples. It is irrelevant whether or not Albanian has anything to do with the language. I have repeated this over and over. The fact remains, a good majority of Albanian men are paternally descended from Neolithic natives. Regardless of whether or not we spoke Illyrian or them pre indo European. Fact is fact, Albanians are largely natives. But I know I am speaking to a wall because you will resort to forming an argument where no argument should even exist considering there is no evidence to argue over. Just fanciful desires.

with bold and underline, I agree,
a % of modern Albania is from sourounding area,
but as to all populations, from different times.

all over the world, nativity, has to do with time,
and most of times leaves marks to the future,
except in cases that scientists are afraid, like Sentinelese people.

 

[Garrick]

E1b CTS5856, source of CTS5856 is in Albanian hills, its descendants live there for 4700 years and today they call themselves Albanias.

But it can be entirely wrong, nobody can know without samples.

Your claim that they were in Albanian hills 4700 years ago, if you don’t have samples from a period 4700 years ago in these hills, is only speculation. You look static, nothing change in time but in real life we see process, and everything is changing.

Look at example, one population P before 1000 years lived on territory m and all inhabitants left this territory and settled in territory n. Someone who finds today’s state of haplogroups in territory n and analyze results can think according findings that population P lives in this territory for example entire 5000 years. But it is completely wrong. Only samples from different epoches in areas m and n will give us real idea what happened.

So situation about CTS5856 can be entirely different.

There is something different possibility. CTS5856 emerged somewhere in Alps possible in Germany, or Switzerland or surrounding. Carriers of this haplogroup later moved probably along river Danube. Where and when happened mix CTS5856 carriers and Indo-Europeans who came from direction of Ukraine. It is possible in Early Bronze age 3000-2700 BC in Eastern Hungary, Southeastern Slovakia furthermost west of Ukraine or surrounding (we should take in consideration in this time population who created Proto-Illyrians is somewhere in Eastern Anatolia/Western Iran, they went via Phyrgia Plateu and Bosphurs in the Balkans about 2000 BC). After that Direction in the Balkans carriers of CTS5658 could be eastern route from the north to east of Balkans and after in several directions. If it is so, this haplogroup could not be in Albanian hills 4700 years before, since it was somewhere in Eastern Hungary, Southeastern Slovakia and surrounding in that time.

 

[Leka]

This one is found.

Where on what sample, and do you have the kit #?

 

[hrvat22]

But it can be entirely wrong, nobody can know without samples.

Your claim that they were in Albanian hills 4700 years ago, if you don’t have samples from a period 4700 years ago in these hills, is only speculation. You look static, nothing change in time but in real life we see process, and everything is changing.

Look at example, one population P before 1000 years lived on territory m and all inhabitants left this territory and settled in territory n. Someone who finds today’s state of haplogroups in territory n and analyze results can think according findings that population P lives in this territory for example entire 5000 years. But it is completely wrong. Only samples from different epoches in areas m and n will give us real idea what happened.

So situation about CTS5856 can be entirely different.

There is something different possibility. CTS5856 emerged somewhere in Alps possible in Germany, or Switzerland or surrounding. Carriers of this haplogroup later moved probably along river Danube. Where and when happened mix CTS5856 carriers and Indo-Europeans who came from direction of Ukraine. It is possible in Early Bronze age 3000-2700 BC in Eastern Hungary, Southeastern Slovakia furthermost west of Ukraine or surrounding (we should take in consideration in this time population who created Proto-Illyrians is somewhere in Eastern Anatolia/Western Iran, they went via Phyrgia Plateu and Bosphurs in the Balkans about 2000 BC). After that Direction in the Balkans carriers of CTS5658 could be eastern route from the north to east of Balkans and after in several directions. If it is so, this haplogroup could not be in Albanian hills 4700 years before, since it was somewhere in Eastern Hungary, Southeastern Slovakia and surrounding in that time.

For now we have statement of co-administrator FTDNA E-M35 project who claims that CTS5856 originate in north Albaninan hills, since descendants of this subclade exist in that area this means that Albanians with this subclade are autochthonous in Albania and wider, and do not come from Anatolia.

For now it is fact, how it will be in the future we will see.

 

[LeBrok]

For now we have statement of co-administrator FTDNA E-M35 project who claims that CTS5856 originate in north Albaninan hills, since descendants of this subclade exist in that area this means that Albanians with this subclade are autochthonous in Albania and wider, and do not come from Anatolia.

For now it is fact, how it will be in the future we will see.

You are making same mistake as Garrick, thinking that the all elements of today's Albanians existed in same place in the past. For example CTS5856 could exist here and was a part of EEF farming community since Neolithic. However the language together with Indo European population, which gave them a big part of today's authenticity, could have come from Anatolia during Bronze Age.

that CTS5856 originate in north Albaninan hills, since descendants of this subclade exist in that area this means that Albanians with this subclade are autochthonous in Albania

Correctly it should read that CTS5856 originated where Albania is today. There was no Albania when it originated.

 

[Leka]

You are making same mistake as Garrick, thinking that the all elements of today's Albanians existed in same place in the past. For example CTS5856 could exist here and was a part of EEF farming community since Neolithic. However the language together with Indo European population, which gave them a big part of today's authenticity, could have come from Anatolia during Bronze Age.
Correctly it should read that CTS5856 originated where Albania is today. There was no Albania when it originated.

You're making basically the same mistake as well. No indo-European language came from Anatolia let alone Albanian. Get on with the program people, it's not 1800s anymore.

 

[Garrick]

LeBrok
Language question is one of main question for researchers, haplogroups can do important contribution as other disciplines to get right picture.

Creating Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs and Romanians is part of same process of migrations 6-8 century.

Natives are assimilated in three cases except in the case of Romanians.

Scientists very precise determined two areas from which Albanias (Shqiptarët) as speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Sqipe) could come to areas of today's Albania and determined that some third area is not possible.

All areas except these two above (northern) the Jirecek Line were Romanized and there people spoke Latin, southern of Jirecek Line is spoken Greek.

 

[Leka]

LeBrok
Language question is one of main question for researchers, haplogroups can do important contribution as other disciplines to get right picture.

Creating Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs and Romanians is part of same process of migrations 6-8 century.

Natives are assimilated in three cases except in the case of Romanians.

Scientists very precise determined two areas from which Albanias (Shqiptarët) as speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Sqipe) could come to areas of today's Albania and determined that some third area is not possible.

All areas except these two above (northern) the Jirecek Line were Romanized and there people spoke Latin, southern of Jirecek Line is spoken Greek.

Search your Iranian roots and stop talking about Albanians in every freaking post of yours.

 

[Nik]

I don't see a problem with Lebrok's statement since he used "could have". I've never actually read anything illogical from him so far, so yeah one option could be Anatolia and everyone who claims confidently otherwise has an agenda.

One of the biggest BS ever is how some people are 100% sure that EVERYONE in the Balkans/Illyricum was Latinised when there's no science in the world that can prove it besides the time machine of course.

Now I'd love to read the post of some really knowledgeable member on E-V13 in Greece as I always suspected that its sort of related to a usually mountain dwelling more-Northern population similar to Albanians and Montenegrins. It's only in Peloponnesus that I see people resembling more the aforementioned ethnicities.

 

[LeBrok]

You're making basically the same mistake as well. No indo-European language came from Anatolia let alone Albanian. Get on with the program people, it's not 1800s anymore.

How can you be so sure about this? It is a common knowledge that IE languages were attested in Anatolia before they existed in Balkans. If they really moved into Balkans, we don't know that, but technically it is very likely.

 

[LeBrok]

Search your Iranian roots and stop talking about Albanians in every freaking post of yours.

Chill dude. You don't need to engage any poster, if you can't control your temper.

 

[hrvat22]

LeBrok
Language question is one of main question for researchers, haplogroups can do important contribution as other disciplines to get right picture.

Creating Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs and Romanians is part of same process of migrations 6-8 century.

Natives are assimilated in three cases except in the case of Romanians.

Scientists very precise determined two areas from which Albanias (Shqiptarët) as speakers of Albanian language (Gjuha Sqipe) could come to areas of today's Albania and determined that some third area is not possible.

All areas except these two above (northern) the Jirecek Line were Romanized and there people spoke Latin, southern of Jirecek Line is spoken Greek.

Language has no connection with origin, 15% of Serbians with E1b who are brothers by male line with Albanians they speak Serbian while their brothers speak Albanian.

An example is Croatian I2a, which is not an Indo-European origin, and today everyone with that haplogroup in Croatia speaks Croatian Slavic Indo-European language.

 

[hrvat22]

You are making same mistake as Garrick, thinking that the all elements of today's Albanians existed in same place in the past. For example CTS5856 could exist here and was a part of EEF farming community since Neolithic. However the language together with Indo European population, which gave them a big part of today's authenticity, could have come from Anatolia during Bronze Age.
Correctly it should read that CTS5856 originated where Albania is today. There was no Albania when it originated.

We in Croatia were Slavs, Dalmatians, Vlachs, Croats, Austrians, Venetians, Hungarians...

But we call ourselves Croats, today Italians call as Slavs but we are Croats, if Albania is mentioned for the first time let's say year 1328. that does not mean that Albanians have not lived there thousand years earlier, only then some people call them Illyrians, Chinese or Afghans. But these are same people in the same place.

 

[LeBrok]

Language has no connection with origin, 15% of Serbians with E1b who are brothers by male line with Albanians they speak Serbian while their brothers speak Albanian.

An example is Croatian I2a, which is not an Indo-European origin, and today everyone with that haplogroup in Croatia speaks Croatian Slavic Indo-European language.

Just listen to yourself. You are referring to Y DNA, which is 2% of whole DNA, as it makes a person and his origin. You are talking about 2% of a person, and only on half of population. Y DNA doesn't make anyone a brother. I have R1b and many Nigerians do, but it doesn't make us brothers or even far far cousins. R1b doesn't point you to the origin of Nigeriens, but only to origin of 2% of single male Nigerian. There are many instances that Y DNA correlates with genetic history of most of autosomal DNA in a person, but it doesn't have too, and in some instances it is very misleading. So be careful about your numbers and conclusions.

 

[hrvat22]

Just listen to yourself. You are referring to Y DNA, which is 2% of whole DNA, as it makes a person and his origin. You are talking about 2% of a person, and only on half of population. Y DNA doesn't make anyone a brother. I have R1b and many Nigerians do, but it doesn't make us brothers or even far far cousins. R1b doesn't point you to the origin of Nigeriens, but only to origin of 2% of single male Nigerian. There are many instances that Y DNA correlates with genetic history of most of autosomal DNA in a person, but it doesn't have too, and in some instances it is very misleading. So be careful about your numbers and conclusions.

If you have same subclade as they have in Nigeria then you are brothers by male line, what haplotype has to do with color of the skin, language, size of skull, etc.